DIRCO on current political situation in Libya; with Deputy Minister

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International Relations

11 March 2020
Chairperson: Ms T Mahambehlala (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Chairperson, at the outset of the meeting, observed that the Committee was not being kept in the loop regarding international treaties that were being reviewed by other parliamentary committees. She suggested that parliament have inter-study groups on international treaties. The Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) was asked to provide the Committee with a list of treaties that SA was a signatory to and at some other time to brief the Committee on treaties that SA had with Libya.

The Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) briefed the Committee on the current political situation in Libya. Members were informed that the overall political and security situation in Libya continued to deteriorate with the recent military escalation between the Libyan National Army (LNA) lead by General Khalifa Belqasim Haftar and the United Nations(UN)-backed Government of National Accord (GNA) led by Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj following the LNA’s latest offensive on 20 February 2020. The attack had broken the ceasefire that had been in place. Currently, there was no ceasefire in place. The situation was concerning as it provided subjective conditions for militant groups and militias to regroup and launch future attacks. Jihadist groups had also found their way into Libya and surrounding areas. Assassinated Libyan Prime Minister Muammar el-Gaddafi had always managed to keep the peace in Libya even though the country was divided into ethnic groups and classes. The Libyan nation was now divided into various kingdoms. The problem in Libya was that there was a plethora of players. It was thus difficult to find a political solution that would lead to the sovereignty and integrity of Libya. Members were given insight into the attempts by the African Union (AU), the United Nations (UN) and other international players like Germany to find a solution to the conflict in Libya. SA was hugely concerned about the proliferation of weapons in Libya. There was a flagrant disregard for the arms embargo that had been placed on Libya. Countries to the North were responsible for the supplying of weapons to Libya. They had geo-interests and economic interests in Libya. At present a ceasefire was needed first and foremost. SA was committed to working towards finding a solution to the conflict in Libya so that the peace process could be moved forward.

The Committee was in agreement that the situation in Libya was dire. It was considered a huge setback when the ceasefire in Libya had collapsed. Members observed that there had been a surge in terrorism in Africa. It was evident that there was no easy solution to the conflict in Libya. SA needed to use its memberships on various bodies in a more pragmatic way. DIRCO was asked to what extent efforts by SA and the AU would make an impact. As Chairperson of the AU, SA was involved but members felt that there needed to be an element of sustainability on SA’s involvement. Members were however convinced that in Libya there were external forces at work. Members felt that it was high time to name and shame those who were involved. All fingers seemed to point to the USA. Imperialist countries like the USA were sponsoring weapons in conflict areas. Sentiments were expressed that all foreign military bases should be removed from Africa. On SA’s participation at the UN members felt that SA should fight for proper representation on the UN Security Council and to oppose the right of veto that the Big Five ie USA, France, UK, China and Russia had. Africa needed to have a voice at the UN. The Chairperson suggested that members read the book “The New Confessions of an Economic Hitman” written by John Perkins. The book was essentially a tell it all of how developed countries manipulated things for their own benefit at the expense of developing or under developed countries. She felt the USA to be the biggest bully and looter. The conflict in Libya was all about the grab for oil. According to John Perkins the USA would kill for oil. The USA was the one creating terrorists in countries rife with conflict and supplying the terrorists with resources to further fuel the conflict. She stated that present attempts at resolving the conflict in Libya was merely dealing with symptoms and not the causes of the conflict. How would one then deal with issues? She stated that in order for there to be solutions for Africa by Africans terms of reference was needed. Africa as a whole needed to take a stand and close all imperialist embassies. The root causes of conflicts needed to be dealt with. Side issues should be left alone. She made a statement that the ANC ruling party would always support Libya unapologetically.

Meeting report

The Chairperson said that Parliament needed to have inter-study groups on international treaties. There was an array of treaties that other parliamentary committees like the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services and the Standing Committee on Public Accounts (SCOPA) were dealing with. She agreed that treaties had to be reviewed but the Committee could not be left out of the loop. The Committee needed to be kept informed. The Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) needed to brief the Committee on treaties that SA had with Libya.

Ms Candith Mashego-Dlamini, Deputy Minister, DIRCO, stated that the DIRCO would present an overview of the situation and conflict in Libya. She pointed out that SA had had bilateral relations with Libya up until 2011 when Prime Minister Muammar el- Gaddafi had been assassinated. In 2011 the South African Embassy in Tripoli, Libya had closed. Up until now SA did not have a diplomatic office in Libya.

The Chairperson asked why the South African Embassy in Tripoli had been closed.

Ambassador Mxolisi Nkosi, Deputy Director General: Governance and Continental Agenda of SA, DIRCO, explained that after the assassination of Prime Minister Gaddafi a number of countries had taken a decision to close their embassies in order to protect their staff and property. SA had initially shifted its diplomatic mission to Tunis, the capital of Tunisia. However, this office could not be sustained for a long time. He noted that SA had strong bilateral relations with Libya ever since 1994. Ex-President Nelson Mandela had defined the road to Tripoli despite the embargo that had been imposed by the USA.      

Briefing by the Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) on the current political situation in Libya
Ambassador Nkosi stated that the overall political and security situation in Libya continued to deteriorate with the recent military escalation between the Libyan National Army (LNA) lead by General Khalifa Belqasim Haftar and the United Nations(UN)-backed Government of National Accord (GNA) following the LNA’s latest offensive on 20 February 2020. The attack had broken the ceasefire that had been negotiated by President Vladimir Putin of Russia and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey. Right now there was no ceasefire in place. The fighting continued especially around strategic assets like the national airport. The situation was concerning as it provided subjective conditions for militant groups and militias to regroup and launch future attacks. He noted that Libya had always been divided into ethnic groups and classes and Prime Minister Gaddafi had always managed to keep the peace. The Libyan nation was now divided into various kingdoms. The UN-backed GNA was led by Prime Minister Fayez al-Sarraj. The problem in Libya was that there was a plethora of players. It was thus difficult to find a political solution that would lead to the sovereignty and integrity of Libya. The retreat of jihadist elements from Iraq and Syria meant that they moved into Libya. Libya was a possible rear base for possible re-entry into Syria and Iraq. These groups now operated in Libya but their activities were not only limited to Libya. They were found in Eastern Niger, Chad and parts of Mali. The loyalties of the Tuareg were being exploited. He added that Prime Minister Gaddafi’s second son Saif al-Islam Gaddafi was enjoying the protection of a Zintan militia group. It was a very complex situation and multi-layered.

On efforts by the African Union (AU), the AU had established a high level committee and SA was a member of said committee. President Cyril Ramaphosa was to attend a meeting of the high level committee later today. The high level committee attempted to find a resolution to the problems in Libya. In Addis Ababa a decision was taken to establish a contact group with the United Nations (UN). Jointly the AU and the UN were trying to find a solution. There were also other international efforts to find a solution. Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany also got involved in trying to find a solution to the conflict ie meeting held in Berlin. As a starting point external players were asked to abide by the arms embargo on Libya. SA was hugely concerned about the proliferation of modern weapons in Libya. Drones had even found their way to Libya and they were even in the hands of militia groups. The militias did not respect the rules of engagement. Countries to the North were responsible for the supplying of weapons to Libya. They had geo-interests and economic interests in Libya. SA was concerned about the involvement of countries in the supply of arms in Libya. SA made a strong call against the continued flagrant disregard of the arms embargo on Libya. As per the outcomes of the Berlin meeting processes there had been agreement on a three track process to bring conflicting Libyan parties to agree on a permanent ceasefire. The political, security and economic & financial tracks were supposed to run concurrently but the challenge was that not much progress had been made. Discussions had stalled with several parties to the conflict not participating. In the main the LNA led by General Haftar with responsible for the conflict in Libya. A ceasefire was needed first and foremost. SA was committed to working towards finding a solution to the conflict in Libya so that the peace process could be moved forward.

Discussion
Mr D Bergman (DA) pointed out that in the previous Parliament the Committee used to get briefings on three countries at one time. Having a briefing on one country seemed a bit light. The cost of getting DIRCO to brief the Committee was not cheap and it would be more cost effective if briefings covered more than one country. There were after all many countries that were in conflict. He pointed out that stability in Egypt now was improving after the first attempt at stabilising the country had failed. He noted that President Abdel Fattah el-Sisi had provided a date on which he would hand over power to Parliament. Terrorism was cheap. Everyone could build a bomb. The challenge was to sustain it. In Africa there was a huge surge in terrorism. It was not only happening in Libya. People were being recruited outside of Libya into Libya. Countries like Somalia were spending large amounts of money to defend the country against terrorism. Policing was also expensive. This was wasted expenditure. In Libya as well funds were being spent on security instead of going down to people at grassroots level. There was no easy solution. It would take more productive consultation and more productive engagement to get anywhere. An inter-programme workshop was needed. The United Nations, the African Union and the Arab League all had to work together to drive out terrorism. Thereafter, infrastructure could be built and a national government of Libya could be formed. SA had a responsibility to use its memberships on various bodies in a pragmatic way.

Ambassador Nkosi, on the surge of terrorism, said that the DIRCO was watching the phenomenon as it evolved and observed that terrorism had extended its tentacles into Southern Africa. In the Eastern part of the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) there was the Allied Democratic Forces (ADF) that was initially created to launch attacks on Uganda. Now they were found in the Eastern part of the DRC. He pointed out that there were a number of armed groupings as it were for the most part unguarded terrain. Many of the groupings had jihadist intentions and were recruited from Al-Shabaab. SA was very concerned about the situation. The DRC was after all a member of the Southern African Development Community (SADC). There was also concern about jihadists in Northern Mozambique. Developments were however being monitored. He agreed with the AU-UN-Arab League cooperation. This was already happening.

Mr B Nkosi (ANC) stated that the situation in Libya was dire. He asked to what extent efforts by SA and the African Union (AU) would make an impact. By the very fact that SA was chairing the AU meant that SA was involved. However, there needed to be sustainability of SA’s involvement. On the security problem, he asked to what extent besides militarised formal waging of war it gave rise to terror groups. Were there links with Syria and the Gulf Region? What was the impact for SA? He was concerned about recruitments from SA or the presence of sleeper cells in SA. The Committee appreciated the fact that countries from the North like Germany tried to play a role on the Libyan issue. However, Africa as a continent needed to find solutions to its own problems. Developed countries tend to get involved only for economic gain. There was a need to come up with solutions.

Ambassador Nkosi agreed that there needed to be African solutions to African problems. Hence the approach was to follow a concentric circle. The South African Customs Union (SACU) was the first circle. SADC was the second circle and the AU was the third circle. All of them centred around SA’s national interests. The AU was leading efforts to resolve issues in Libya. The AU should be at the centre of solutions. There were also efforts internationally to resolve the issues in Libya and one such effort was by Germany. He observed that most of the inputs by members were comments.

Mr X Nqola (ANC) agreed that the situation in Libya was sad but it was not the fault of the Libyan people or its government. There were external forces at work. The Committee appreciated the efforts of the AU and the EU. In particular, SA as Chairperson of the AU was playing its part in silencing the guns. It was hugely disappointing that the ceasefire in Libya had collapsed.  He hoped that during the term of the Committee a change could be made to the situation in Libya. He asked what role could the Brazil, Russia, India, China and SA (BRICS) play. He said that Russia was strong militarily. In Libya it would seem that there were external forces at work. He felt that it was time to name the external forces. If it was the USA, then it should be stated as such. He asked why western countries like Germany were leading the solution finding process and why were meetings held in Berlin. He felt that African issues needed to be resolved in Africa. The conflict was in Libya so meetings should take place in Libya. He pointed out that there was an African Union Resolution that stated that African issues should be dealt with in Africa.

Mrs T Msane (EFF) concurred with Mr Nqola that African problems required African solutions. Everyone was aware how the then Prime Minister of Libya Mr Muammar al-Gaddafi had been killed. There was sponsoring of weapons by imperialist forces. All military bases of imperialists in Africa should be removed. Only then could stability be found and guns be silenced. It was the USA and Germany that was sponsoring the weapons. She considered them to be the terrorists. On the UN support mission in Libya, she asked how the Five-Five people engaged. She felt that SA as the Chairperson of the AU needed to have a strategic way to deal with the silencing of guns. She felt that there should be no agreements with imperialists. On SA’s participation in the UN she felt that SA had to fight the veto powers of the Big Five. Africa needed to have a voice at the UN. There was no need for a Big Five. Libya would only be stable if all imperialist military bases were removed from Africa.

Ambassador Nkosi, on the UN support mission to Libya, stated that Ms Msane’s observations were correct. There had to be equitable participation. This was an outcome from the Berlin process. It was now part of the UN processes. The DIRCO was taking note of it.

Mr T Mpanza (ANC) supported Mr Bergman’s suggestion for the Committee to have briefings covering more than one country in a single day but with a rider. In the event that the Committee was being briefed on a major conflict like Libya that there be standalone briefings. Some conflicts were more hectic than others.

Mr Mpanza asked DIRCO what criteria it used to decide on which conflicts/countries to brief the Committee on. He agreed that there was sponsored violence. A ceasefire was a must. He felt it important that the DIRCO provide the Committee with a list of treaties that SA was a signatory to. It could be for information or related purposes.

Ambassador Nkosi said that given the sensitive nature of some of the information that members requested he suggested a closed session where members could be briefed. He could speak to security issues and elaborate on the players that were active in Libya.

The Chairperson responded that it was the Committee who decided on what members should be briefed on. Standalone briefings were apt for major conflicts like Libya and Palestine. Other smaller conflicts could be clubbed together. She advised all present to read the book by John Perkins “The New Confessions of an Economic Hitman”. The book articulates a chronology of events of what was done. The book was an attack on developed countries who sponsored loans to developing and under developed countries and when these loans could not be paid back the developed countries took the wealth of the developing or under developed country. The wealth that could be taken was in most instances oil or other natural resources. She felt the USA to be the biggest bully and looter. The USA built its empire at the expense of Africa and other victims in the rest of the world. The conflict in Libya was all about oil. According to John Perkins the USA would kill for oil. The USA was the one creating terrorists in all these countries and the one supplying them with resources. For one the USA created Mr Osama bin Laden. In Africa the USA created many Osama bin Ladens. When one looked at the ceasefire, the realisation is that one is dealing with symptoms and not the causes. Looters like the USA had to be dealt with first and foremost. The USA was the creator of problems. European countries too had come to Africa to loot the continent. For all we know they might have wanted to come to SA as well but President Nelson Mandela was far too strong. The question was how one dealt with these issues. The imperialists recruited politicians, the media and Non-Governmental Organisations (NGOs) to be their advocates. These types of persons were called counter revolutionaries. Negotiations in Libya would not see the light of day until these issues were dealt with. In order for there to be solutions for Africa by Africans terms of reference was needed. Africa as a whole must decide to close all embassies of imperialist powers. Israel was often used by the USA as its ambassador. Israel was after all the friend of the USA. The silencing of the guns was an ambition. Was it achievable? It would be difficult especially if there were people who defied the ceasefire principle. She advised that on Africa’s solutions one had to be realistic otherwise one would not get anywhere. There were those forces out there who were attacking BRICS countries because they were assisting Africa. These forces were the ones who were thieving in Africa. At some point Africa would have to make a decision that enough was enough. Africa had to be decisive and take steps against the wrongdoers. President Mandela had been steadfast in his loyalty to Prime Minister el-Qaddafi at a time when there was a UN ban on Libya and there were sanctions. The root causes of conflicts needed to be dealt with. Side issues should be left alone. Human rights abuses were taking place in Libya. What was the way forward? Solutions had to be found. In Africa one found beautiful USA embassy buildings. The contradiction was that the USA was causing the downfall of Africa but yet Africa was embracing them. Bilateral relations were what bound SA. Africa needed to have its own Africa Criminal Court similar to the like of the International Criminal Court.  

Deputy Minister Mashego-Dlamini appreciated the inputs by members and noted that the Libyan issue was difficult terrain. She agreed with members that SA had to fight for proper representation at the United Nations Security Council (UNSC). The UNSC had to be transformed. 

Ambassador Nkosi pointed out that most of the comments were in line with SA’s foreign policy. 
Given that the political track was embarked upon the issue was around how to push the military track forward.

Mr Nqola stated that perhaps some issues were not meant for public consumption and that a closed briefing would be helpful.

The Chairperson stated that such briefing would be arranged. She stressed that the ANC, as the ruling party, would always support Libya unapologetically.

The meeting was adjourned.

 

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