Third term Committee programme

Meeting report

Opening Remarks

The Chairperson opened the meeting and welcomed everyone and said no apologies were received. He further said the Committee was doing extremely well during its oversight visits and is leaving a good mark as a new Committee. He was sure the good work will continue. He thanked Members for being understanding during the oversight visits and said the Committee must foster proper foundations with the entities.

The Chairperson then outlined the agenda for the day.  

Mr C Hunsinger (DA) extended his condolences to the ANC caucus on the passing of the Deputy Minister of Mineral Resources and Energy, Ms Bavelile Hlongwa.

Mr M Chabangu (EFF) requested a moment of silence in memory of the Deputy Minister.

Consideration of Draft Committee Report on the 2018/19 Quarter Four and 2019/20 Quarter One Expenditure of the Department of Transport

The Committee Secretary took Members through the report indicating reporting on quarterly performance is a requirement of Parliament. There was nothing new in the report as it contained the information from when the Committee met with the Department of Transport on its quarterly performance. The report covered the expenditure of the Department, the Department’s achievements and non-achievements for the quarters under review. This information had been presented to the Committee and no analysis was done on it as it has not been presented to the Standing Committee on Appropriations.

Observations contained in the report included performance indicators where Members felt some indicators overlapped or were substandard and needed to improve. An example was the road safety programme where the Committee was of the view that the Department was silent on what strategies it was implementing the address the carnage on the roads. The road safety programme was too fragmented, seasonal and there should be a radical departure from this approach to road safety. Other areas of overlap included the anti-fraud and corruption unit. There were also questions raised about the safety of freight transport on the country’s roads and information was requested from the Department on what its role was in ensuring safety on the road and availability of roadside stops for freight drivers on the country’s roads.

Another concern raised by Members was the taxi recapitalisation slow implementation, specifically in the Mangaung Metropolitan Municipality, and whether the Department was monitoring the spending of funds in these cities to ensure funds were being spent as per the Division of Revenue Act and if there was a value for money being achieved. The amount of vacancies and acing positions were also raised as a concern.

The Committee Secretary said Members could add observations to the report. The report also requires recommendations which are particularly important as the Committee is a new one. 

Discussion

Mr C Hunsinger (DA) noted a specific report explaining expenditure and financial management within the Department. He asked what should be done with the report and what direction the Committee would take on the report. He recommended the Committee take a moment to reflect on the propose of the report, its depth and the content the Committee would like to add to its own report.

Mr L Mangcu (ANC) agreed and asked that the Committee consider crafting a recommendation on what to do with the report. Would it be a mere ticking of boxes that the Committee adopted the report or would the Committee engage the Department on the report? He also asked how the responses of the Department would be treated.

The Committee Secretary asked that Members err on the side of caution and not rush the process. If this was not the correct time for the Committee to consider the report then it should not. She advised the Committee wait until the budget review process as many of the matters dealt with in the quarterly reports would be raised again in the Annual Report. She suggested the Committee park its report for now, go through the budget review process and then raise matters it was not happy with. Thereafter the Committee could finalise the report as there is not really a deadline by which the report should be adopted. The next quarterly report would be received at the end of November.

Mr Hunsinger acknowledged the guidance but said the question still remains as to what the Committee does with the report and when it should be concluded. He was concerned that if the report is delayed and considered with the entire year’s expenditure, it changes the nature of the report. There is value in having a report which refers specifically to quarterly expenditure. There are also minutes of meetings on previous quarterly reports which contains recommendations made. This report should be elevated as a very specific report to really address matters that have been repeated over the years.

Ms N Tolashe (ANC), after hearing the explanation of the Committee Secretary, understood that it would be wise to do the total work. This also allows for Members to read all available documents so that they can have a clear understanding of the report. She knew Members are in a hurry to ensure spending patterns are corrected but when they have read everything they would have concluded on what is the next best step to take.

Mr T Mabhena (DA) asked what process will be followed when Members look at the responses of the Department.  What happens after the Committee considers the report? The Committee needs to be specific and deliberate when looking at the report. He suggested the Committee wait for the budget review process and then take the matter of the report forward from there.

The Chairperson emphasised the Committee was a new team and should be frustrated by matters that can be tackled. He said the report would be deferred and dealt with after the fourth quarter report is presented and other matters raised have been dealt with. When the Committee is ready to deal with the report, it will do justice to it.  

Mr Mangcu agreed that the report be deferred until the Committee is ready to deal with it. He asked that the Committee consider the Legacy Report of the previous Committee at the end of the meeting.

The Committee Secretary said that as she takes the Committee through the programme, she would touch on aspects of the Legacy Report. It would also be discussed in the Committee’s strategic planning.

Draft Committee Programme Third Term 2019

The Committee Secretary took the Committee through the draft programme and highlighted that it was unfortunate that as soon as the term starts, Members would immediately go into the medium term budget process and the strategic planning session would have to be delayed.

As the Committee was new, she informed Members that the first two weeks of the term would be consumed by the budget review process and consideration of Annual Reports. She would do her best to email the Annual Reports of the Department and its entities to Members.

The Auditor-General would make presentations to the Committee at the beginning of the term followed by the Department and its entities. The Committee would need a lot of time. She asked for guidance from Members whether the times allocated on the programme were sufficient. Due to time constraints, it would not be possible to meet with all the entities. At the end of November, the Committee would consider the 2019/20 second term expenditure of the Department. When the House is not sitting, the time would be set aside for oversight and strategic planning which is where the Legacy Report will be dealt with as the Committee sets out its plans for the next five years.

The Chairperson was of the view that the approach to take is a focused one that focuses on specific goals for the term. The Committee must set out clearly what it wants to achieve and then use the time accordingly. He proposed that entities which are not experiencing many challenges should not be called before the Committee so as to open more time for engagement with the Department and entities which were experiencing challenges.

Mr L McDonald (ANC) agreed and said due to insufficient time, the Committee should focus on PRASA and SANRAL as they are experiencing more problems. Entities which are doing very well should not be called before the Committee this time around due to time constraints.

Ms M Ramadwa (ANC) was concerned that the Legacy Report would only be considered at the end of the term. She emphasised the Committee must play an oversight role over all the entities and even if the entities were doing well, they must be called. It is important that the Committee calls all entities – considering time, the Committee could meet with multiple entities at a time.

Mr Mangcu agreed that the Committee must play its oversight role effectively – no entity should be sidelined or left behind. He also agreed that if the Committee only considered the Legacy Report at the end of the term, it would no longer be useful.

Mr M Chabangu (EFF) said the Committee deals with entities that are seen by South Africans as not performing well therefore the oversight engagements by the Department and entities are important and should be done thoroughly. Therefore enough time should be allocated to the entities and Department.

The Chairperson asked Members to understand that the Committee meetings would start at 10am. He did not mind if the meetings ran until 10pm but then those Members suggesting extended times for engagement with all entities must be present at the meetings. It is the Committee’s right to call all entities before it. He was open to all suggestions and if the result is that everyone would be invited then the times would be adjusted.   

Mr Hunsinger suggested that after the briefing by the Auditor-General, the Committee should see the entities and then the Department at the end.

The Chairperson agreed.

Ms Tolashe understood the Committee’s concerns and understood it is a new Committee which needed to hear everything but said it is not possible to sit as one Committee for days. Members were also part of other Committees. She wanted the Committee to consider what it wanted to achieve and only invite those entities that are notorious. The Committee must be realistic.  

Mr Mabhena agreed and said the Committee should meet with the entities first and then address matters raised in the engagements with the entities with the Department at the end.  

Ms N Nolutshunga (EFF) supported the view that all entities must come and report. However the Committee must prioritise the major matters with the entities which serve the public directly e.g. PRASA and SANRAL – the Committee should spend most of its time with these entities. The Member learned this morning that SANRAL has debt of R32 billion and an additional R9 billion was approved. The rest of the entities can be invited after the Committee has engaged PRASA and SANRAL.

The Committee Secretary said the meeting days are Tuesday to Friday. It was difficult to predict how long engagement with the entities would last for – she did not think an hour was enough for the interrogation.

The Chairperson proposed three hours i.e. 45 minutes for presentations and 45 minutes for engagement. Each Member will be given the opportunity to pose two questions and then there would be 45 minutes for the responses. However, for certain entities such as PRASA and SANRAL, more time would be given depending on the level of engagement.

Ms Ramadwa reminded the Chairperson that some Members have flights on Friday.

The Chairperson said this will be accommodated.

Mr Chabangu asked what the logistics will be in terms of transport if these meeting continue into the night.

The Committee Secretary responded by saying if meetings last long, Parliament will provide transport and meals. The Committee should make time for Members to sit down and have meals as they meetings run all day. All Committees will be meeting during these weeks which might make venue booking difficult. Some of the meetings might take place outside the precinct however meals and transport will be provided.

The Chairperson said provision will be made for 30 minutes each for lunch and dinner.

Mr Mangcu suggested that presentations be presented and structured in the same manner as this might help save time.

The Chairperson asked Members to suggest how they want the presentations structured so it can be communicated to the Department.

Mr Mangcu said Members are not interested in background information and what the entities do – the Committee wants to see targets, what was achieved and what was not.

Mr Mabhena asked that tracking and monitoring also be discussed. Entities which had findings from the Auditor-General should discuss what steps they have been taking to correct these findings and if steps have not been taken they must explained why steps have not been taken.

Ms Ramadwa said consequence management should also be included as to what has been done to those who were involved in financial mismanagement and irregular expenditure.

Ms Tolashe asked that the entities and departments must also give information that will help the Committee to make meaningful recommendations. The Committee Secretary should help contextualise what the Committee wants.

The Chairperson concluded the agenda item by noting Members were in agreement on what would happen. The Committee Secretary has a rough idea of what to do and request from the Department and entities.

The Committee Secretary just heard from the Department that it would be able to table at least three Annual Reports. She would email all documents to Members.  

The Chairperson said it would also be helpful if Members caucus themselves around questions of interest which they may have. This will allow Members to ask more questions and elaborate on behalf of the rest of the Members.

Mr Mangcu asked about the report of the Public Protector which indicated that the Department had to do certain things by certain timeframes.

The Chairperson responded that the Public Protector’s report was due to be discussed during the current term but the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry was not ready as the discussion would be a joint one.

Consideration and Adoption of Committee Minutes

Committee minutes dated 20 August 2019, 27 August 2019, 28 August 2019, 29 August 2019, 30 August, 3 September 2019 and 10 September 2019 were adopted without amendments.

Mr Mangcu noted the minutes, except the last two sets, showed observations and recommendations made by Members. He asked why the last two sets did not contain this.

The Chairperson noted this matter should have been dealt with under “matters arising” – this would give the Committee Secretary time to respond.

The Committee Secretary responded that with the Annual Performance Plans (APPs), these are usually sent to the Committee during the budget vote process and there is usually a deadline. However because it was an election year, there was no deadline. Those observations and recommendations will be emailed to Members during recess.

Ms Ramadwa asked when Members will receive the observations and recommendations that have went through analysis.

The Committee Secretary replied that the analysis has already been sent to Members.

The Chairperson noted an invitation was sent to the Committee to attend a rail safety conference. He asked which Members are available to attend.

Mr McDonald, Mr Mangcu and Ms Tolashe were available to attend.

The Chairperson asked Mr McDonald to lead the delegation and thanked Members for availing themselves.

The meeting was adjourned