Committee hosting Chinese delegation

Meeting report

Opening remarks by the Chairperson

The Chairperson started by saying that the Committee has already met with the delegation and the protocols have been observed. He said that firstly, the Committee would complete a summary of what the Police and the Portfolio Committee does. After this the floor would be opened for questions from the delegation.    

Meeting between the Portfolio Committee on Police and the Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee

The Chairperson highlighted that she has already explained what the Portfolio Committee does with independent bodies like, among others, the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID), the South African Police Services, the Secretariat, and the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority (PSIRA). The last item that requires explanation is the Private Security Industry Regulatory Authority which also reports to the police. It means that all security companies in the country have to register and they must see that they have been trained. It was highlighted that there exists the Civilian Secretariat which ensures that there is participation between the Police and the communities. It is also important to ensure that there is public participation, cooperative governance, international participation and the interests of the people of South Africa that the country represents. One of the roles of the Portfolio Committee is to ensure that the Executive remains accountable to the government, to Parliament and the people of South Africa. What it means is that public participation, being a Constitutional mandate, is very important to the country. This means that one cannot take decisions for the people for South Africa without consulting them. The history of South Africa is that there was no transparency in the previous government. The Committee can interact with civil society organizations, business, experts, professional bodies, universities etcetera. That provision of accountability is in the Constitution itself. The Portfolio Committee works with the rules of Parliament. The Police fall under the Peace and Stability Cluster. This Committee is part of the Select Committee. This means that the Committee meets with the National Council of Provinces, given that it has a Committee that does the same work. The Committee also has a mandate which stipulates that reports have to be submitted quarterly. There are also annual reports and the budget process. Among the other reports is that if the Committee does go to China, as has been the wish of the Chinese delegation, the Committee has to report back what it has learned in China. This Committee deals with, among other things, legislation, oversight activities, international agreements, private members legislation, budget votes, petitions, and statutory provisions. The Committee will still provide a copy of a list of Committee activities. Oversight is very important because there is no executive that does things on their own. They must be able to report to Parliament and, in particular, to Portfolio Committees. The Committee also meets with other Portfolio Committees. If there is a problem of safety in, for example, schools, the Committee will meet with the Department of Education. If there is a problem in the Courts, this Committee meets with the Committee of Justice and Correctional Services. When there were challenges in Cape Town, the Committee met with the Department of Defence and Military Veterans. One of the big challenges in the country, the Steinhof saga, was dealt with by the Department of Finance. The Committee met with the Department of Finance to understand what is happening in this saga. The Auditor-General also comes to the Committee to provide information. Statistics South Africa does the same thing. There are communities that are participating in the affairs of the country. The delegation was in South Africa yesterday and saw how the young people came to Parliament to say ‘enough is enough’ in relation to gender-based violence. The President was standing up for them to make sure that things are right in the country. The President made an announcement that made the country very happy that perpetrators of rape will receive life sentences. Femicide is now punishable with a life sentence. There will also not be bail. If there is any magistrate or judge that took a wrong decision in matters that happened before, women have the right to have those cases reviewed. South Africa stands for safer communities. It also wants to ensure that whoever comes to the country is safe too.            

Ms N Peacock (ANC) appreciated and welcomed the Chinese delegation to South Africa and the Committee. She said that she hoped that given that the relationship has been started, as the Committee is meeting for the first time with this Chinese delegation that it should be kept this way. She hoped that the Committee can learn from the Chinese delegation and that it will be reciprocal. The Committee’s role in the National Assembly is for the Committee to make laws, represent the communities, as well as playing an oversight role. The oversight role encompasses the need to ensure that all of the promises made in the State of the Nation Address are honoured. The most important means to fight crime in South Africa is to ensure that the country was building strong intergovernmental and interdepartmental relations. When there are riots at schools, it effects the Department of Education. However, the Committee on Police also comes in in that context. The only way to fight crime in South Africa is by working together. In order to fight crime, what South Africans do is ensuring there is the establishment of Community Policing Forums. These forums are members within the communities who are the eyes and ears of the police to help the different communities to fight crimes in the streets, the zonal areas, as well as the sub-regions.   

Mr W Mafanya (EFF) stressed that the Committee would like to learn from the Chinese delegation in terms of how China deals with its crime situation. There are also trans-border crimes where you find your people in our country committing crimes. The Committee would like to know how to curb them coming into South Africa to commit crimes. ‘We are also looking forward to visiting your country to learn how you deal with these complex matters’. 

The Chairperson opened the floor for clarity seeking questions and discussion.

Mr Liu Qiang thanked the Committee for the introductions. In response to Mr Mafanya, there are a number of similarities between the Committee’s responsibilities and the Chinese Judicial Affairs Committee. How Chinese combats crime is a little different from the South African approach. China classifies crime in two categories, one referring to common criminalities (e.g. stealing) and the other is using one’s position to commit crime. The police force has to deal mainly with the first category, the common crimes. There is a special department to deal with people who use their position to commit crime. Honourable Mr Wu used to be responsible for a department that deals with people who use their position to commit crimes. It used to be called the disciplinary department. Now it is called the supervisory department. This morning the delegation learned quite a bit about how the police in South Africa combat gangs. ‘How does the government deal with police officers inside the police force who are an umbrella for the gangsters’? Concerning the cross-border crime by Chinese people and how China extradites them, in China there is a department called the international cooperative bureau that cooperates with the departments in other countries. In 2003, China and South Africa signed an extradition agreement. 

Mr Li Shouwei thanked the Committee for the exchange. He asked in the past year, how many instances of misconduct have occurred in the police and have been investigated. ‘Is there a particular case that can be explained’? ‘Furthermore, if an injustice has been perpetrated against citizens, who can they talk to? ‘Can they speak to the Committee’? ‘The Committee has the functions of legislation and the budget process so drafts the legislation and budget’? ‘Is the Committee involved in the draft or does it just go through it and approve it’? ‘Is the draft made by the government’? 

The Chairperson explained that the budget comes with priorities. The Committee will outline to the minister what is needed (for example, Police). When they budget, they will take into account the number of Police that are needed. They will request that amount of money from Treasury, namely, the Minister of Finance. The budget goes hand in hand with priorities. In terms of IPID cases, there are 5651 cases. There is a decrease now of 19%. This means that about 201 cases of death in custody were investigated, 436 deaths as a result of Police and negligence, and 124 cases of corruption activities. All these were reported to Parliament that the IPID is investigating. If some of them are not happy, they go to Court. If they are still unsuccessful, they come to Parliament, which will also look at the merits thereof. Once the investigations are done, many disciplinary actions do take place. There are cases where injustices are reported and it is Parliament’s role to look at those matters.

Mr O Terblanche (DA) responded that, in terms of the more serious crimes, South Africa has a specialised unit for priority crimes. They are called the Hawks. They are supposed to be independent from the police. In terms of allegations about crimes committed by Police, those are the case investigated by the IPID. Every year, the Police have to compile a budget in terms of their annual plan. This budget is forwarded to the National Treasury. The Treasury works out a budget in accordance with the annual plan. That presentation is made to this Committee and the Portfolio Committee on Finance. These Committees have an input on the final amount which the Police will receive. 

The Chairperson asked how China takes people to through an academy to train as police officers. 

Mr Wu Yuliang, Director of the Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee, explained that, in China, academic training also commences after high school. The students have to take admitted entrance exams, such as at university. If they reach certain scores, they will be admitted to the Police. In China, it is called the Police Officers Academy. It is a four year study at university. They will then be sent to the Police Force. After they complete the four years, they have a bachelor’s degree. Another for which is similar to the police academy visited this morning is called the Training School. The trainees are from the Police Force. They are already policemen. They go to these training schools for a short period of time, three to six months.

Mr Terblanche outlined that policing is about proactive and reactive policing. He asked if China has special units focussing on crime prevention, namely, the proactive side, and units focussing on the reactive policing, such as detectives; or, is it one police service.

Mr Wu Yuliang highlighted that one unit in the Chinese Police Force is combating and the other is preventative. Under the Public Security in China, there are three departments responsible for three kinds of crimes, namely, ordinary crime, economic crime, and corruption. The preventative side really focuses on education and obedience to laws. At the grassroots police stations in communities, there is combating of petty crimes. There is also propaganda and to get people to learn the law through education. China is focussing more and more on preventative measures to reduce crimes. People are aware of what they may and may not do to prevent crimes. In cases of petty crimes where sentences of three years in jail are given, people are usually put back in the community for correction.

The Chairperson asked the researchers to take note that when the Committee goes to China, the aspect of Education being key to the Committee’s visit.   

Mr Mafanya inquired what the crime rate is in China on the basis of its population. How are police dispersed per unit of the population? What is the retirement age of a policeman?

Mr Wu Yuliang responded that the police are like any other public servant in China and are entitled to retire at 60 years old. Males and females can retire at the same age. In China, per 10 000 people, there are 5 policemen. This is not enough. Besides the official, formal police force, there is an auxiliary police force. This auxiliary police is not financed or sponsored by the national government, but by each provincial, local department. The number of the auxiliary police is about the same number as the official, formal police. In total, per 1000 people, there is 1 policeman. In South Africa, there are about 190 000 policemen and women in the force. Ratio wise, per 380 people in South Africa, there is one policeman or woman. In comparison, per 1000 people, South Africa has 3 policemen/women, while in China there is only 1 policeman or woman. China has a huge population of 1.3 billion. 190 000 policemen and women are very little from a Chinese perspective. In terms of position related crimes, per 1000 people, there are less than 3 people who would perpetrate position-related crimes.    

Division Chief of the Secretariat of the Office of the Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee, Mr Liu Qiang, on the matter of the crime rate ratio, described that in the past 10 years the crime rate has gone up in China. The latest crime rate for last year is about 1.2 million cases. There are about 1.7 million people involved. If you take China’s huge population into consideration, it is about 1.2 crimes per 1000 people.

The Chairperson stressed that this is very important as the Committee would like to compare the ratio of police officers, noting that China has a very big population. ‘Does China have any other countries coming for training in China’? ‘If South Africa wants to send policemen and women to receive training, does China allow it’?

Mr Wang Jiaocheng, Deputy Director of the Supervisory & Judicial Affairs Committee, in terms of the preventative method to crimes, stressed that the community plays a very important role in being the eyes and ears of the police. There is three important points that need to be added. Firstly, China has a Public Security Bureau. The police have double functions, not only for combating. They also have a preventative role in dealing with all sorts of crimes, for example, economic crimes, internet, and drugs etcetera. Secondly, given that China is a huge country, to ensure social stability, grassroots people have to be used as the Chinese Police Force’s eyes and ears to cooperate to prevent crimes. For example, in every community, there is a ‘neighbourhood watch’ similar to South Africa. In factories, there is a department called the security department that not only protects the factory, but the community, which also cooperates with the police. The grassroots cooperation is almost everywhere. It plays a very important role for the country’s stability. This system is different from neighbourhood watch because it is not just among the residents. It is government-organised. It plays a very important role in the assistance of combating crimes because it is everywhere. People would know that somebody is watching them. Thirdly, digital technology also plays an essential role in fighting crimes. Where there are fewer police, digital technology has helped a lot. This increases the ability that they solve the case and also this has a psychological effect on the people who want to commit crimes. In short, there are three elements: the professional force, the grassroots community force, and technology. These are combined to fight crime.   

The Chairperson emphasized that the Committee has learned a lot and that the Committee hopes that the delegation has learned something also. It is the beginning of communications. If there are any documents that are needed by the delegation, there is a capable team of officials that can assist. 

Mr Wu Yuliang thanked the Committee.

The Chairperson encouraged Chinese communities to visit South Africa. South Africa is a country that is growing. They should not be scared. What is happening in South Africa has been experienced by other countries: Democracy is maturing. We need to educate our children that before we criticise the country, they must look at the history of what happened before.

Mr Wu Yuliang explained that China has received trainees from Laos and Thailand, the countries close by. The International Department under Public Security in China does have this function to train policemen and women from other countries.

Mr Wang Jiaocheng explained that very soon China will be having its 70th anniversary of its National Day. The Committee will be able to see on TV how the Chinese army marches.  

Closing remarks from the Committee

The Chairperson thanked, among others, the Chinese Consul General in South Africa that made this meeting possible. The Committee wishes that the delegation enjoys its remaining time in South Africa. It would have been ideal to join on the site visits. The township would have also been an important place to visit. However, the relationship with China will continue to grow. The Committee will be visiting China too.

Closing Remarks from the Chinese delegation

Mr Wu Yuliang thanked the Committee for the detailed introduction. Between the two committees, there are many similar functions. In the future, there should be more exchange and more cooperation. The Chinese People’s National Congress is the highest authority in China. It has a five year term and is constituted of people from different areas. There is a standing committee for daily works. The National People’s Congress and the Standing Committee are in charge of the legislation, the election of the president and other important functions. According to the Chinese Constitution, under the National People’s Congress, there should be 10 Portfolio Committees. The Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee is one of the 10. In the Committee there are 21 members. It also investigates and approves laws. In cooperation with courts and other departments, the Committee also has a supervisory function. The Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee dealt directly with six of the highest departments in China, which includes the Justice Department, the Supreme Court, the Public Security and Judicial Department. Similar to this Committee, the functions are supervisory, namely oversight, and legislative. The purpose the delegation’s visit is to understand South Africa’s policing system. In 1995, a law was passes in China called the People’s Police Law. This law is over 20 years old and a number of things need to be amended in the law. The delegation has learned a lot from this visit and exchange with the Committee and the visit with the Police Commissioner and the academy. The second objective was to further our relationship with Parliament and particularly this Committee. There are many experiences of this Committee from which the delegation can learn. The delegation would like to learn more about what the Committee has achieved and would like to get more information from the Committee. When the Police Law needs to be changed, the Supervisory and Judicial Affairs Committee will contact this Committee for more information. He ended by saying that the Chinese would like it if this Committee could visit in China.

The Chairperson responded that legislation is drafted by Cabinet and is sent to Parliament to be refined and put through a process of public participation. The Committee will forward information to the delegation on how the Committee deals with legislation.

The meeting was adjourned.