Departments of Premier on matters raised by Audit Committees; Irregular expenditure: DEA & Development Planning

Meeting report

The Committee's Procedural Officer, Mr Dustin Davids, said that the Committee needs to deal with the resolutions of the previous dispensation. The Committee does report to the Auditor-General (AG) at the national level. The Committee furnishes the AG with a report of how the resolutions of SCOPA have been transversely finalised by the end of the financial year. The Committee has some outstanding matters to finalise. Members should check their emails for relevant documentation. The Parliament supports the need to cut down on paper consumption. Members are advised to use soft copies and the Committee will only give hard copies upon request by Members.

Mr D Mitchell (DA) said that he prefers hard copy to soft copy because the Committee does not have access to technology that enables Members to write on their screens. Ms D Baartman (DA) was also in favour of hard copies. Ms N Nkondlo (ANC) and Mr D America (DA) were in favour of both hard and soft copies.

The Procedural Officer said that the document sent to Members contained the resolutions of the Previous SCOPA meeting for the 2017/ 18 financial year. Block 9.3 on Page 479 speaks to Resolutions from the Department of the Premier (DotP). The previous resolutions, in addition to new resolutions, will form the core of the Committee's responsibility. The Committee had concerns about the report of the Audit Committee in the 2018/ 19 financial year. The Auditor General usually briefs the SCOPA on the internal audit processes before it presents the actual content of the annual report. The Audit Committees expressed concern about the internal controls of the Departments of the Premier (DotP), Environmental Affairs (DEA&DP) and the Department of Social Development (DSD). The Departments will present how they have addressed the concerns and strengthened the internal governance control measures.

Presentation by the Department of the Premier (DotP)
Mr Harry Malila, the Acting Director-General of the DotP, said the presentation was based on the matters raised by the Internal Audit and the statements made by the Audit Committee in relation to the 2017/18 Annual Report. The concern of the Audit Committee arose from the differences in terminologies used by the Audit Committee and the DotP. The Audit Committee was not happy with the rate of implementation of the recommendation by the Department. The Internal Audit does some audit work based on the agreement reached with the Department. The DotP has proactively addressed some of the concerns raised and implemented some of the recommendations. The first purpose of the presentation is to update the Committee on the status of implementation of the recommendations. The Department hopes to sign its Draft Annual Report for the 2018/ 19 financial year on 30 August and table the report on the 27 September 2019. So, it hopes to conclude every outstanding matter as soon as possible. The Department monitors the rate at which various managers implement the recommendations of the Audit Committee. The Internal Audit raised concern about the delegation framework. The Department did not have sufficient time to implement the recommendation as at the time, 28 February 2017, the audit report was compiled. However, this recommendation is being implemented in the current financial year. Another matter, raised by the Audit Committee, relates to the coordination of government policies. The DotP gave assurance to the Audit Committee that there is improvement in the rate of implementation and the Department plans to complete the implementation in the current financial year. The Committee has the opportunity to check on the implementation of the recommendation through its oversight authority. The audit committee also raised concern about the assessment of government processes. The DotP has implemented most of the action plans by 31 July 2019 and hopes to complete the implementation at the end of the financial. The DotP will consider the recommendations and ensure adequate implementation in order to improve the internal processes. The recommendations on organisational design are being implemented. The DotP implemented close to 70% of the recommendation as at 31 July 2019. The implementation should be completed at the end of the financial year. All recommendations on the ICT framework have been implemented as at 31 July 2019. One or two recommendations however, are long-term in nature. The Department is not satisfied with the statement of the Audit Committee regarding the rate of implementation of recommendation made in the 2017/ 18 financial year. The DotP recorded 55% implementation as at March 2019 and the current implementation rate is 71%. The DotP hopes to achieve above 80% at the end of this financial year. The Department cannot continue to deal with matters raised in the 2017/ 18 financial year. There is a difference in the number of risk areas identified by the Audit Committee (48) and the DotP (22). The DotP has documentation to support its statistics. The Department promised to expedite action on the implementation of the recommendations and action plans. The Committee should ensure adequate oversight in order to keep the Executive in check. The DotP, as the centre of governance, will continue to strive to lead other Departments by example.

Discussion
Mr America commended the DotP's presentation. However, new Members are at enormous disadvantage because they do not have a full grasp of most of the concerns raised. New MPs will have to accept what the DotP says in good faith. The DotP should give accurate information and should not attempt to mislead the Committee.

Mr Mitchell welcomed the presentation. The concerns should be finalised to allow the Committee to focus on current matters. The concerns raised did not hamper service delivery and they did not pose direct financial risks to the DotP. It is important that the Department engages with the internal audit to fast-track the implementation of the Audit Committee’s recommendations. It is concerning that there is a huge difference between the risks identified by the DotP (22) and the Audit Committee (48). He asked how often the DotP engages with the Internal Audit.

Response
The Acting DG said the DotP does not have the intention to mislead the Committee. The DotP takes SCOPA and all other Standing Committees seriously. The DotP prioritises effective service delivery. The DotP's Officials, the Acting DG and managers, meet with the Audit Committee on a quarterly basis. The Internal Audit and the risk team are also part of the process. The DotP adopts a standard procedure to report on governance, financial and non-financial information. The Audit Committee prioritises the extent to which the DotP implements the recommendations of the Internal Audit. Sometimes, the Department and the Internal Audit disagree on certain recommendations but it is important that the Department considers the recommendations, which helps to improve internal process within the Department. The Audit Committee usually intervenes when there is disagreement between the Department and the Internal Audit. The matters raised by the Audit Committee do not have direct impact on DotP's finances and service delivery. It was mainly related to the Standard Operating Procedure within the Department. For example, how the DotP communicates with and monitors other Departments. The DotP is on track to achieve its targets and to implement recommendations.

Premier Winde said that two of the recommendations are long-term in nature. They are ICT governance and organisational design processes, which are complex processes. For example, completion and approval of organisational design processes can only be attained after extensive consultation with organised labour in the various Chambers. The DotP engages with other stakeholders to fast-track the implementation of recommendations in this regard. The Public Service Act and Regulations directs the DotP to put in place ICT governance framework to manage the provision and the control environment of ICT in the Province. It also guides the procurement of ICT equipment and utilisation of ICT as an enabler for business capacitation and efficiency. Such projects are rolled out over a multi-year period. The Audit outcomes will depend on SCOPA's scrutiny. SCOPA should make adequate judgment based on the performance of the DotP.

The Chairperson said that effective monitoring and evaluation are vital to the oversight function of the Committee as they ensure that the Executive is held accountable. Oversight functions help to correct things that are wrong. The Departments should make adequate reference to the previous financial year when presenting the report for the current financial year. This helps the Committee to keep track of the progress. Departments should ensure timeous submission of documents to the Committee. While the Department might find it difficult to submit documents at an official time of 21 days prior to meetings, it is highly recommended that the DotP get the documents to the Committee at least seven days before the meeting. This allows Members to familiarise themselves with documents, which encourages active engagements with the Department.

Premier Winde said that matters from previous the financial year should be completely resolved in order to focus on the business of the current financial year. The DotP looks forward to report to the Committee after the annual report process.

The Chairperson appreciated the presence of the Premier and the DotP at the meeting.

Presentation by the Department of Social Department (DSD)
Ms Sherna Fernandez, the MEC for the DSD said that the concerns of the Audit Committee are attributable to legacy matters.

Dr Robert MacDonalds, the HOD of the DSD, briefed the Committee on the risks and areas identified for improvement as pointed out by the Audit Committee for the 2017/ 18 financial year. He also discussed the mechanisms that were developed and introduced to address these challenges. The major areas include crime prevention & support in Metro South and Cape Winelands; and Early Childhood Development (ECD). The main findings on crime prevention and support in the Metro South was measuring recidivism, reporting on compliance to diversion order, and post-assessment monitoring/ aftercare of offenders. The Management engaged with relevant stakeholders like the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) and the National DSD to provide adequate solution recidivism. The Management collates regional monthly probation statistics on reoffending children and adults and quarterly analysis reports are submitted to the Executive Management for decision-making purposes.

The findings on crime prevention and support in the Cape Winelands include reporting on compliance to diversion order, post-assessment monitoring/ aftercare of offenders, probation case files. The management has developed action plans to address the challenges raised by the Auditor Committee. The DSD review probation files in July 2017. In addition, probation officers were appointed in September to monitor probation files to ensure adherence to norms and standards. The management develops probation checklist that details required documentation for compliance reporting. The Department has indicators that determine the number of people that are referred to the diversion programme. The Department has under-performed in this area but it has made remarkable progress over the years. Difficulty in transportation represents a major challenge to the beneficiaries of the diversion programme, especially in the rural areas. The DSD aims to introduce the aftercare programme to people who have undergone diversion programmes but the Department would need additional probation officers. The DSD needs resources to address certain gaps in the aftercare programme. In the meantime, the DSD uses non-governmental organisations (NGOs) to solve the challenge. The DSD has mixed results in its engagements with NGOs. Some NGOs perform excellently, whereas some perform below expectation.

Auditor General's findings on ECD include ECD partial care registration, ECD programme registration and quarterly progress report. The Department has responded to matters related to consistency around application criteria and provisional registration. The DSD holds meetings with ECD program staff and other stakeholders to discuss progress on the registration project. The DSD aims to fine tune the criteria guiding conditional registration because the Department does a lot of conditional registration because of the inability of some ECD to comply fully with registration requirements.

The ratio of social worker to population is a serious challenge. Currently, the ratio is one social worker to 4500 people and there is one supervisor to every six social worker. The Audit Committee also raised concern about resettlement policy for staff in relation to the payment of R130 000 incurred under the operating expenditure in the last financial year's report. The Department has responded to this concern in the document submitted to the Audit Committee. The Audit Committee raised concern about the irregular expenditure of R2.3 million. The Department developed measures to address the challenge and irregular expenditure has reduced drastically in the current financial year. The DSD has centralised supply chain processes in its Head Office due to the specialised skills involved in the procurement process. Unfortunately, those skills are not necessarily available in various regions. Therefore there was a the need to centralise the process.  Centralisation resulted in a major drop in irregular expenditure. The names of Senior Managers, who received performance awards, are reflected on page 138 of the annual report.

Discussion
Ms Baartman asked to know why there are no social workers in Laingsburg. There used to be two in the area but one of them is on maternity leave, while the other was transferred to another area.

Mr America sought clarity on the breakdown of the R130 000 resettlement package. The ratio of social worker to population (1:4 500) that the DSD gave in its presentation is based on the 2011 Census. Meanwhile, the population of the Western Cape Province has increased significantly since then. Is there any attempt to rework the statistics based on the current population? This will help in equitable disbursement of social workers across the Province, which in turn facilitates effective service delivery. He expressed satisfaction with the explanation the DSD gave on the irregular expenditure.

Ms Nkondlo said that the DSD reported more of processes than the implementation of action plans. The amount of the irregular expenditure is concerning. What are the sources and the current status of the irregular expenditure?

Mr Mitchell emphasised the importance of active engagements between the national and provincial DSD to provide effective solutions to some of the findings of the internal audit. Measures must be in place to continue to render diversion services to the people, especially to the young people. The DSD can debate the challenge of the NPA with the Internal Audit to arrive at an appropriate solution to the problem. What is the source of the irregular expenditure?

The Chairperson sought clarity on the word 'recidivism'. It is concerning that the number of ECD centres reported by the DSD is not a true reflection of the reality on ground, especially in Eden District. The reported number of ECD appears to be way lower than the actual number of ECD centres. What is the registration status of the ECDs?

Response
Mr MacDonalds said that there used to be two social workers in Laingsburg. One went on maternity leave and the other was transferred to another location. The Department has transferred a Social Worker from the Winelands, who resumes duty on 2 September2019. In the interim, a Social Worker that drove from Beaufort West did service Laingsburg but this was not optimal. The Department also faces difficulty in other aspects of operations but it develops measures to address the problems. The DSD develops innovative measures to deal with various challenges. Rural areas are becoming less attractive to certain social workers. Most of them have professional qualifications and prefer to work in urban areas, where they can access quality services and resources. There has been proposal for rural allowance for social workers at the national level but this has not been consolidated into a policy. The DSD sometimes takes over facilities in some areas where it cannot get NGOs or NGO social workers. It is even more difficult for NGOs to get social workers because they pay less than the Department. The Department wishes to attract more social workers but the net cost to the Department may be overwhelming and tend to significantly reduce efficiency. Therefore, engagements with NGOs have led to significant reduction in the money paid to social workers. The DSD has mixed results in its engagements with NGOs. In Cape Town Central Business, for example, the Department handles walk-ins, while an NGO manages child protection and the NGO is exceptionally good. Laingsburg is a difficult space and the DSD will have to decide about welfare services because they have been limping along for a while. Unfortunately, the national body of child welfare has melted down completely. A lot of child welfare is now breaking away from the mother body to survive and they are actually doing well. The only disadvantage is that they lose the name and the brand.

The CFO of DSD said that Official who are redeployed within the Department or retired are entitled to a resettlement package of R130 000. The DSD is responsible for the cost of prior visit to and from the new location. The resettlement package covers furniture, packing, insurance and transport, among others. The person is also entitled to special leave. In response to Mr America's concern on the shortfall of social workers, The CFO said that the DSD aims to improve its presence in all the regions of the Province.  The Department is currently busy with organisational design process to look at the capacity of the various regions to meet the needs. This is quite a big project and more capacity will be needed. The DSD also makes up for the shortfall of NGO staff. The DSD anticipates a population increase of about 700 000 over the next five years in the Province. This certainly requires additional social workers.

In response to Members' concern on irregular expenditure, the CFO said that the R2.3 million irregular expenditure resulted from about 40 cases of which 26 of them have been found not be irregular after thorough investigations. Some of the cases realised not to be irregular related to expiration of contracts, local content and non-compliance matters, among others. The Accounting Officer (the HOD) can condone cases that do not constitute direct loss to the Department. The Accounting Officer condoned 14 of such cases that were initially considered irregular.

The HOD said that 'recidivism' refers to re-offending. People that committed minor offences like shoplifting may be referred to diversion programmes instead of facing full trial for the crime. The diversion programmes include community service, counseling and other management courses that are determined by the Prosecuting Authority in consultation with DSD's probation officer. The Prosecuting Authority may decide to drop the case against the offender if he feels that the offender completes the programme satisfactorily. About 7 000 adults and 10 000 children go through the programme annually. At the moment, the DSD does not have the means to track those who go through the programme. There is no mechanism to check if the beneficiaries do not commit crimes again. Also, the DSD is not sure of the quality of the diversion service. The Internal Audit recommended that the Department should come up with measures to reduce crime and recidivism. The DSD do not have control over certain aspects of tracking offenders and recidivism. For instance, the electronic system that the national Department introduced to track recidivism and diversion programmes is outside the control of the Provincial Department. The Provincial DSD will work to implement the recommendations of the Internal Audit and there should be noticeable improvement in the next two to three years. The Department aims to achieve value for money in the diversion programme. The diversion programme in the country is still evolving and requires enormous resources. Efforts should be ensures to deliver adequate services to the beneficiaries. The DSD needs additional capacitation in terms of social workers in order to reduce the caseloads of the probation officers. The probation officer officers should focus on new cases, while specialised social workers track the progress of those who have passed through the diversion programme. Are they re-offending or do they need additional interventions from the Department?

In response to Mr Mitchell's proposal that the provincial DSD collaborate with the national DSD, the HOD said that the provincial DSD has active engagements with the national DSD. In the interim the provincial DSD tries to improve the quality of the case files and the tracking of cases in its system. However, the provincial DSD cannot introduce a parallel case management system. The National Treasury and the Auditor General will not support a parallel system. The provincial DSD will continue to work with the national DSD to make the system more efficient.

An Official of the DSD promised to submit list of ECD centres to Members. A facility is considered non-compliant if it does not provide its quarterly or financial report to the Department. A facility must comply with the minimum norms and standards before it is considered registered. There are about 1 545 registered ECD facilities and 2 321 unregistered ECD facilities in the Province.

The HOD said the DSD does not have the list of all ECD facilities in the Province. The Department only has the list of registered and those that the Department knows that are not registered. New ECDs keep popping up.

Discussion
Mr Mitchell expressed concern about the status of the diversion programme, especially in places where there are no permanent court structures. ‘How does the DSD intervene in the whole diversion programme in order to assist affected children’? ‘What does the DSD do with the children before diversion’? The DSD reported an irregular expenditure of R4.6 million in the previous term out of which R3.3 million was condoned. What happened to the remaining amount that was not condoned?

Mr America sought clarity on the portion of the irregular expenditure that is attributable to local content.

Response
In response to Mr Mitchell's concern about the intervention of the DSD in the diversion programme, the HOD said that the Child Justice Act requires that an arrested child must be assessed by a probation Officer. The DSD fulfills this mandate. The Probation Officer determines if a child qualifies for a diversion programme or full trial. The probation Officer determines if a child has criminal capacity and this is often done in consultation with psychologists from the Department of Health. Children older than 14 years are considered to have criminal capacity. Sometimes, the probation officer does pre-sentencing report to determine if the case warrants full court trial or not. The DSD sometimes conducts Victim Impact Assessment.

The Department of Trade and Industry mandates that certain sectors must have a particular amount of Local Content in the programmes and this was designed to protect and promote the local manufacturing industries, especially the textile industry. For instance, the DSD must consider local manufacturers when making uniforms.

The CFO said that the irregular expenditure of R4.6 million was for both prior and current financial year. About R2.5 million was condoned and the remaining is being investigated. The DSD referred a case of R1.9 million to the National Treasury and the DSD waited for the decision of the National Treasury. Sometimes, the National Treasury only condones after the Department disciplines those responsible for irregular expenditure. All these occurred in the 2018/ 19 financial year. The National Treasury has condoned all irregular expenditure.

Presentation by the Department of Environmental Affairs and Development Planning (DEA & DP)
The CFO of DEA & DP apologised on behalf of the HOD, who was having another engagement with the National Department in Pretoria. The Department briefed the Committee on its plans to avoid recurrence of irregular expenditure contained in the 2017/18 annual report. A total of R9.13 million of irregular expenditure was revealed in the disclosure note 22.1. The findings by the Auditor General resulted from non-compliance with Construction industry Development Board (CIDB) Act. The findings of the Auditor General was investigated, confirmed and treated by the Accounting Officer in accordance with the requirements of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA). Section 18(1) of the CIDB Act requires that a contractor must be registered with the CIDB prior to undertaking or completing any construction work or portion thereof. Paragraph 2.1.7 of the term of reference requires that a service provider must manage the construction. This is to ensure effective oversight of project. This helps project to meet minimum norms and standards. Paragraph 5.1 specifies that civil engineers must be part of the project team. The Auditor General made the findings because the project did not align with the prescripts of the CIDB. The Department supports the views of its CIDB Office, which states that the CIDB Acts and Regulations were not applicable to the project. The Department facilitated interaction between the Auditor General Representatives and the provincial CIDB Office staff. Extensive cost consultation sessions were held with the construction industry experts including representation from the Western Cape Department of Transport and Public Works. The Department approached the DotP legal services to obtain a Senior Counsel legal opinion on whether the Auditor General's opinion was correct. The Senior Counsel advised the Department that the finding of the Auditor General was right. The Department can only award contracts to contractors registered with the CIDB. Program Managers, project managers and Supply Chain management officials underwent capacity building and training sessions. The Legal Unit of the Department of the Premier conducted a debriefing on legal review and Senior Counsel Opinion. The CIDB Act practice notes were circulated to all Departmental staff. It was agreed that all future projects will be based on the advice of the Senior Counsel, which states that the entire project must be handled by a contractor registered with the CIDB. However, the labour component of the project can be handled by unregistered service provider. The implementation of the Auditor General's recommendations have being monitored with a Departmental Management Improvement Plan, which is submitted to the economic cluster Audit Committee on a quarterly basis. The process is underway to fill vacant posts, namely the vacant post of the Director of Supply Chain Management and the Deputy Director of Internal Control. The Deputy Director of internal control as received his appointment letter and has indicated that he would resume the post on 1 October 2019. Then internal control and supply chain monitoring tools have been reviewed to strengthen the compliance checks of all the projects undertaken by the Department.

Discussion
Mr America commended the various measures the Department initiated to avoid future recurrence of irregular expenditure. He, however, sought clarity on the status of the irregular expenditure. Was the irregular expenditure condoned?

Ms Nkondlo said the Department, not the service provider, was responsible for the irregular expenditure. The DEA & DP knew the project has a construction component and still went ahead to appoint a service provider that was not CIDB compliant. Was the irregular expenditure condoned? Who is responsible for the irregular expenditure? The Department should explain how irregular expenditure will be avoided in the future based on the document presented to the Committee. The construction company should be in position to supply labourers. Why did the Department recommend that labour providers are not required to be registered with CIDB?

Ms Baartman sought clarity on the relation between the national Central Supplier Database (CSD) and Provincial Office. ‘Can municipality give contracts to a service provider that is not registered on the CSD’? The CSD registration has various categories. How does the process work? What was the process followed, in this particular project, to check if contractor was registered with the CSD?

Response
The CFO of DEA&DP said that the investigation of the irregular expenditure was hampered by change in legislation. The National Treasury's updated Framework on irregular expenditure was released on 17 May 2019. So the Department had to treat the irregular expenditure based on the new legislation. The report was recently finalised and it was given to the Accounting Officer, who consulted with the Legal Expert, Advocate Marais, on the way forward. The main steps in the investigation of irregular expenditure include confirmation and determination. The Internal Control tries to identify the root causes and the employee responsible for the irregular expenditure. It is important to know if the Department suffered any loss and if there is any breakdown in internal control structure. Once the Accounting Officer accepts and confirms the non-compliance, the Department may decide to condone the irregular expenditure after thorough consideration. The Department must seek the approval of the condoning authority. Normally, the Department consults with the Provincial Treasury, which then determines if other authorities should be consulted. After this, the Accounting Officer takes the matter through a number of processes before finalisation and eventual sign-off. There is no recovery at this stage. The final decision of the Department is conveyed in the financial statement. The Department is fully aware of the CIDB Act and does consult regularly with its CIDB Office. The irregular expenditure will mostly be condoned eventually.

Advocate Marais said that the Department faced a unique problem with the project in question. Regulation 4 of the CIDB Act and Regulations implies that sub-contractors in charge of labourers do not necessarily have to register with the CIDB if the labour sourced from local community form substantial part of the project. This was the case with the project. The consulting engineer in this type of project does not need to be registered with the CIDB. The constructing engineer only designs and oversees and the construction is done by someone else. The CIDB is fine-tuning relevant legislation in order to avoid recurrence of this problem in the future. The finding of the Auditor General does not imply that the contract was unlawful. It does indicate, however, that certain component of the project did not adhere to the CIDB Act and Regulations.

The CFO said the contract, which lasted over three years, was awarded based on open bidding process due to the huge amount involved. He did not have any information on the various categories of the CSD. Anyone who intends to do business with the State must be registered on the CSD System. The Province's version of the System is the Western Cape Supplier Database.

Discussion
The Chairperson expressed concern about the fact that the service provider was not registered with the CIDB. Are there instances where such practice is allowed? Are there prior examples of such incidents? The irregular expenditure of over R9 million is significant.

Response
An Official of the Department and Advocate Marais said the construction component of the project cost R1.7 million, which was minute compared to the whole project. The construction component was not sufficient to trigger CIDB threshold.

Consideration of Minutes of Previous Meeting
Mr Mitchell said that Mr Dustin Davids is the Committee's Procedural Officer, not the Committee's Coordinator. The surname of the Chairperson was spelt incorrectly.

The minutes were adopted with amendments.

Ms Baartman moved for the adoption. The move was seconded by Mr America.

Resolutions
The Chairperson expressed satisfaction with the representation of the Departments at the meeting. It was pleasant to have Premier Winde and MEC Fernandez in the meeting. The HOD of the Department of Environmental Affairs sent his apologies.

The SADCOPAC Conference, earlier scheduled to hold in Namibia, was transferred to Johannesburg, South Africa, but it was cancelled eventually.

The Procedural Officer has researched the irregular expenditure Ms Baartman spoke about in relation to the canal project in Laingsburg. Members were encouraged to submit written documentation about irregular expenditure in the Province. This will familiarise Members with such expenditure. This will facilitate effective oversight over the Executive. Ms Baartman can further pursue the matter formally.

Ms Baartman said she wrote the Minister of the Department already. The Minister's response will be circulated to Members.

The Chairperson said that the Committee and the Speaker received a correspondence from an Member of the Parliament (MP) regarding the sale of a landed property in Milnerton by the Department of Human Settlements to the City of Cape Town. The Committee will investigate the matter and make its findings available to the MP.

Mr D Mitchelle and Mr America proposed that the Committee should give Members time to consider the correspondence. The Committee can then deliberate the matter in the next SCOPA's meeting. The Committee should avoid meddling with politically-motivated allegations.

Ms Baartman requested that the Committee obtain all the documents related to the matter. This will allow Members to make informed decisions.

The Chairperson said the outcomes of further interactions and engagements on the matter will be communicated to Members. Members should also put other resolutions in writing. This formalises the resolutions and facilitate effective implementation. The City of Tshwane Metro Municipality had requested to visit the Western Cape Provincial Parliament to investigate the Best Practice adopted by the Public Accounts Committee. Progress on the visit will be communicated to Members.

Mr America cautioned that some of the Committee's Members like himself, Ms Baartman and the Chairperson will not be available in the week starting on 20 September 2019 due to engagements with the National Council of Provinces (NCOP).

The Chairperson and the Procedural Officer promised to work on the date.

The Committee is in contact with the Office of the Speaker about capacitation and assistance to the Committee.

The meeting was adjourned.