IPID High Profile cases & Quarter 1 performance

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12 September 2018
Chairperson: Mr F Beukman (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID) briefed the Portfolio Committee on Police on its Quarter One Financial and Non-Financial Performance for the 2018/19 financial year, along with an update of the investigation of high profile cases. The presentation addressed budget and expenditure with a summary of the first quarter expenditure, expenditure per programme, analysis of expenditure per programme, expenditure per economic classification, expenditure per province, spending on main cost drivers and spending trends for quarter one. The performance for programme one: administration, for quarter one was then presented, looking at targets and their progress, along with programme three: compliance monitoring and stakeholder engagement. Members were also briefed on legal matters. The presentation covered the performance of programme two: investigation and information management in terms of targets and their progress in quarter one – this included criminal convictions, recommendations and referrals to the National Prosecuting Authority. Under this programme, Members were briefed on high-profile investigations. 

The Committee questioned lifestyle audits of senior IPID management, shifting in IPID’s approach and the need for specialised skills looking at the future direction and repositioning of the organisation, IPID’s plan for mitigating future fiscal constraints, cost of litigation and the nature of legal service rendered by the state attorney. Other questions concerned the delay in issuing invoices, the building leases, closing of satellite offices and if IPID was investigated the role of the SA Police Service (SAPS) in cash-in-transit heists. There was much discussion on what IPID found regarding the death of a police officer supposedly involved in the “Zimbabwean rendition” and SAPS posts offered to IPID investigators. There were questions on progress made on specific targets and how some targets were determined such as investigations of rape by police members. Members questioned cooperation IPID received from the Minister of Police and the National Commissioner of Police, progress made with legislation and the salaries of the Directorate. There was discussion on what IPID was doing to bolster itself against the clear undermining of its investigations and recommendations by the police, oversight of crime intelligence, process of working with external investigators and if there was an increase in misconduct or criminal complaints of SAPS members from university campuses or TVET colleges this year.

Some Members of the Committee were vocal in outlining the depth of corruption in the country which was spearheaded by the police itself – this was deeply threatening to democracy. SAPS were rewarding evil at the expense of goodness. The police are a law unto themselves and Parliament was being mocked in the process. These were matters against which many Members fought and put their lives on the line for during the days of Apartheid.

Meeting report

IPID Q1 Financial and Non-Financial Performance 2018/19 Financial Year

Mr Robert McBride, IPID Executive Director, provided Members with an overview of the presentation noting that IPID recently had its legotkla and completed its target making process for the draft Annual Performance Plan (APP). Non-targeted resolutions were also prepared which helped in organisational turnaround and enhancement. The Minister of Police addressed the legotkla and helpful insights were provided from a policy perspective. Problems were raised about the Inspector-General of Intelligence (IGI) and Crime Intelligence regarding classification of documents – there was a twin track approach to deal with classification through consultation and litigation. A workshop on understanding mandates between the different organs of state and how they should interact with each other was scheduled for 27 September – this included IPID, the IGI and Crime Intelligence. Joint task teams were set up with the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI).

During quarter one, IPID had a total workload of 7 702 – there was a backlog of 6 153 and a 1 549 intake. The intake declined by 69 from 1 618 to 1 549 (4%) when compared to quarter one of the 2017/18 financial year. The approval process of 27 additional posts was still pending – IPID was waiting for the Department of Public Service and Administration (DPSA) to concur with the Minister of Police’s approval of the new 27 posts. Advertisement of these posts could only take place once IPID received this letter of concurrence. This should have been resolved three months ago but some matters fell through the cracks during the change of leadership, not on the side of IPID. These 27 posts were all control, check and accountability related as a result of the previous year’s qualified audit.

With litigation, a key matter IPID was dealing with was the Public Service Commission (PSC) report regarding rules dealing with investigations which came into force in January 2018. These rules were significantly different from the 2002 rules on how to deal with investigations. IPID was in consultation with the PSC as the Directorate intended reviewing the initial report. If Members were not aware of this, a copy of the report can be made available to the Committee.

IPID was busy with a review of its expansion strategy as per the decisions made at the legotkla. The strategy would apply to both investigators and support staff. The strategy would look at specialised units to deal with specialised crime such as sensitivities around rape.

Mr McBride said IPID had problems with the building it currently occupies. The building came about through a process of corruption. In December 2015 the lease was declared null and void. The Department of Public Works (DPW) did a settlement agreement with the landlord. The building was a death-trap and was uninhabitable – the deadly fire recently in Johannesburg brought this to the fore. IPID required high level intervention on the matter. DPW approached IPID on an individual basis to do a deal and buy the building as money was available. The landlord, who could not be identified, was also encouraged to make a deal. The building had one exit and one entrance.

Programme One: Administration,

Mr Moses Dlamini, IPID Acting Chief Director: Corporate Services, took Members through this part of the presentation by addressing performance in programme in terms of indicator, target and progress:

-number of strategic training areas undertaken as per IPID’s training plan: on track

-% vacancy rate per year: on track

-%implementation of annual internal audit plan: on track

-% implementation of risk mitigation strategies: on track

-number of evaluations conducted per year: on track

-% of contract/Service Level Agreements finalised within 30 working days of request: on track

-% of written legal opinions provided to the Department within 30 working days of request: on track 

Budget and Expenditure

Mr Victor Senna, IPID Acting Chief Financial Officer, said the purpose of this section of the presentation is to present progress on the 2018/2019 first quarter performance of IPID against predetermined objectives as required by Treasury Regulations. After looking at the overall spending analysis, for the period ended April to June 2018, or the first quarter of the 2018/2019 financial year, the Directorate reported an actual expenditure of R65 621 000 against the projected quarterly target of R78 778 250 resulting in 4.18% variance or R13 157 250. The presentation then looked at expenditure per programme as the end of the first quarter and the percent spent vs. the target:

-Programme One: Spent 22.22% of allocated budget as at end of Quarter One. The identified underperformance is mainly in Compensation of Employees due to the delay in filling the funded vacant additional positions. The bulk spending in goods and services was mainly on centralised support services such as office accommodation (devolved budget) covering all provincial offices, audit costs, computer services and fleet services

-Programme Two: Spent 20.51% of allocated budget as at end Quarter One. The goods and services item registered under-spending with expenditure of 18.58% for the period under review since the bulk of expenditure for office leases was done through Programme One’s Devolution Budget. The bulk of spending continued to be on compensation of employees which includes the investigators and their overtime claims

-Programme Three: Spent 15.08% of its allocated budget as at end of Quarter One. Compensation of employees realised savings due to delays in filling newly created Integrity positions. The main cost drivers includes, amongst others, travelling and accommodation during stakeholder engagements

Members were then taken through expenditure per economic classification for quarter one, percent spent vs. the target, expenditure per province, month on month spending trends of the quarter and spending on main cost drivers. The bulk of expenditure in Quarter One was mainly on the previous year’s (2017/18) accruals. The delay in approval of the organisational structure is impacting on compensation of employees spending. The main cost drivers during the period under review were audit costs, computer services (software licenses), travel and accommodation for investigators and fleet services (leased vehicles). Projects funded from SAPS additional budget have commenced and will be monitored through regular budget committee meetings.  

In terms of measures implemented to improve spending included fast-tracking the process of filling all outstanding posts, following up with suppliers on all outstanding invoices for payments, strategic procurement (utilising savings realised to procure goods and services which are unfunded but key to service delivery e.g. high performance vehicles, investigation equipment, computers, etc) and reprioritising spending to key cost drivers where pressures are experienced

The Department will continue to monitor expenditure and projected cash flow in order to provide an early warning where necessary. Filling of vacant posts were prioritised by management in order to ensure all funded vacant positions are filled in the second quarter of the current financial year once concurrence has been given by DPSA. Impact caused by the 2017/18 reported accruals will be assessed, monitored and communicated to National Treasury before the Adjustment Budget (AENE) process. The Department continues to engage various relevant stakeholders for intervention and support on efforts made to secure additional funding for execution of the IPID mandate.

Programme Two: Investigations and Information Management

Mr Matthews Sesoko, IPID Head: Programme Two, took Members through this part of the presentation by addressing performance in the programme in terms of indicator, target and progress:

-number of investigators trained on specialised services as per the training plan: annual target exceeded

-% of decision ready cases completed from total cases received: target off track due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. Catch up plans are in place to ensure performance is back on track

-% of legal advice provided to investigators from total request received: on track

-% of cases registered and allocated within 72 hours: target met

-number of statistical reports on investigation generated: target on track

-% investigations of death in police custody: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigations of death as a result of police action: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigations of discharge of an official firearm: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigations of rape by a police officer: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% investigation of rape while in police custody: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% investigations of torture: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigations of assault: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigation of corruption: target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-% of investigations of 28 (1) (h) and 33 (3): target not met due to training interventions undertaken by 103 investigators during the period under review. There is a catch up plan in place to ensure performance is on track

-number of approved systemic corruption investigations: target on track

-% of backlog decision ready cases: target on track

-% of dockets referred to the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) within 30 days: target met

-% of disciplinary recommendations referred to SAPS and the Municipal Police Services (MPS) within 30 days: target met

-% of oral legal advice provided to investigators within 24 hours of request: the target is demand driven and no requests were received during Quarter One

-% of written legal advice provided to investigators within two working days of request: target on track

-% of Promotion of Access to Information Act (PAIA) requests finalised within 30 days: target off track

Mr Sesoko said there were 14 criminal convictions during Quarter One. The presentation provided information on the province, station, nature of the complaint, number of members charged and the sentence. A summary of recommendations was also provided along with a breakdown of the negative recommendations forwarded to SAPS and MPS per province.

Turning to the high profile investigations, IPID reported to the Standing Committee on Public Accounts (SCOPA) on numerous high profile cases investigated by the Directorate. Offences committed ranges from corruption, fraud, theft, money laundering and racketeering, defeating ends of justice. Cases under investigation included:

-Allegation of a corrupt relation between Lt. Gen. Phahlane and a service provider, Crimetech and Kriminalistik, owned by Henry Deale and Jolanta Komolodovitzc (Kameeldrift Cas 145/09/2017). Amount involved is R96 million. This concerned the construction of the house of Lt. Gen. Phahlane. The forensic report was finalised and is ready for the NPA

-Allegation of a corrupt relation between Lt. Gen. Phahlane and a service provider, FDA, owned by Keith Keating (Sinoville Cas 146/05/2017).  The estimated amount is R5 billion. The matter was expected back in court in October. The search and seizure case was won by IPID with costs

-Allegation of corruption against Lt. Gen. Adeline Shezi (SAPS Head: Technology Management Services). SAPS was not complying with its own disciplinary code

-Allegation of defeating the ends of Justice against Maj. Gen. Agnes Makhele (former SAPS Free State Crime Intelligence Chief)

-Allegation of torture, murder and defeating the ends of justice against the Mabula Team. The matter was expected to be in the Klerksdorp Regional Court on 27 September

- Allegation of a corrupt relation between Captain KGB Tshabalala, Maj. Gen. Obed Nemutanzhela and a service provider to the Crime Intelligence Division (Lyttelton CAS 170/12/2015). Amount involved is R563 005

-Allegation of a corrupt relation between members of Crime Intelligence and a service provider,  Brainwave Trading as I-view Integrated Systems (Brooklyn Cas 565/11/2017). The amount involved is estimated at R54 million (I-View one)

-Allegation of a corrupt relation between members of Crime Intelligence and a service provider, Brainwave Trading as I-view Integrated Systems (IPID CCN 2018010527). The amount involved is estimated at R45 million (I-View two)

-Allegation of corrupt relations between members of SAPS and a service provider, I-View, for procurement of bulletproof vests at inflated price (I-View three)

-Tshwane University of Technology (TUT) shooting: IPID is meeting with the Student Representative Council (SRC) on 17 September. The Directorate was struggling to get people to come forward with information

-Marikana investigations. Maj. Gen. William Mpembe (former North West Provincial Deputy Commissioner) et al were expected back in court on 13 September

Mr Sesoko said it was IPID’s considered view the investigation against the high ranking police officers has brought to the fore the necessity to amend the IPID Act, the Intelligence Oversight Act and the SAPS Act  to deal with:

-Counter investigation of IPID investigators by SAPS members being investigated by IPID. This is clearly unconstitutional

-Declassification of information and documents by Crime Intelligence and SAPS management to enable IPID to conduct investigations as this unnecessarily delays IPID investigations. This also resulted in unnecessary litigation and was a waste of taxpayers’ money – this could be mitigated through policy certainty

-IPID investigations in Lyttelton CAS 170/02/2015,   I-View one and two, shows that SAPS Crime Intelligence is involved in internal political battles contrary to its constitutional mandate, which may negatively affect the South African democratic project

-There is therefore a need for legislative amendments for strict oversight on Crime Intelligence and the Secret Service Fund in particular. This could be benchmarked with international best practice

Programme Three: Compliance Monitoring and Stakeholder Engagement

Ms Mmamodishe Molope, IPID Head: Programme Three, said the annual target of percentage of implementation of integrated communication and stakeholder engagement strategy was on track. The following targets were met for Quarter One:

-number of community outreach events conducted per year

-number of disciplinary recommendations referred to SAPS and MPS that are analysed

-number of criminal referrals forwarded to the NPA that are analysed

-% of responses from SAPS and MPS that are analysed


Ms Marianne Moroasui, IPID Chief Director: Legal Services, indicated that IPID is a litigation intensive department. The battle was currently being won in the courts. IPID had two favourable judgements for the period under review – this included the case where Mr Keith Keating and others challenged the lawfulness of search warrants used at their premises in December 2017. This judgement was in favour of IPID and found the search warrants were lawful – this was groundbreaking law in this space. The other matter was on the counter investigations of IPID by a SAPS unit in the North West – this was in fact a counter revenge investigation. The court found this to be unlawful. In both judgements the costs were afforded in favour of IPID. Since litigation began in these cases, IPID has spent about R10 million on litigation, to date. Funds on litigation for SAPS came from state coffers – this was taxpayers’ money spent on litigation which should not take happen. The Judge called for an amendment to the SAPS Act to deal with SAPS members recusing themselves when they have an interest in an investigation. The IPID Act has such a section to deal with investigators declaring an interest in an investigation. If these matters of policies were included, there would be no need to use the courts as a resort or remedy.

IPID was also involved in section 205 litigation for documents requested from SAPS that were classified. IPID is of the opinion that classification of these documents is merely to hide criminality. 

With the appointment of Adams & Adams, IPID had several interactions with the PSC regarding this matter since the beginning of the year. The PSC informed IPID it would seek legal opinion on its report and it also required IPID to provide further documentation – the Directorate has provided this but there was still no clear indication on whether the matter was finalised. Rules on investigations were promulgated in January 2017 which stated there must be a process which takes place before an investigation can be finalised. This process outlined in these rules was not followed at what was deemed to be the finalisation of this report. The fact that further documentation was required from IPID proved the investigation is yet to be finalised. IPID is considering approaching courts to compel the PSC to finalise this report so that the Directorate knew where it stood as it was currently in limbo regarding the status of this particular report. Within 30 days of the court order, the PSC would be compelled to provide IPID with the finalised report and the Directorate would then decide to take it on review, if it had any legal standing.

Mr McBride concluded by noting that IPID was preparing to make submissions to the Zondo Commission of Inquiry on State Capture. Being one of the first victims of state capture, and the first department to oppose it and call it out, IPID would present a range of evidence in the form of case studies and cases including civil litigation, criminal cases, victimisation, false charges, prosecutions and persecutions.  In terms of mandate, IPID would look at SAPS and the DPCI under the Nhleko/Ntlemeza/Phahlane era. A copy of the written submission could be made available to the Committee.


The Chairperson questioned the matter of lifestyle audits for senior management, and all risk departments in IPID, and what commitment IPID could make in this regard. The President has announced on the need for lifestyle audits. Fighting crime/criminality is a changing environment, looking at the shift in IPID’s approach and the 27 new posts, the Directorate required specialised skills – what was IPID doing to ensure staff recruited had a varying skill and knowledge base. He was concerned by the cost of litigation. Apart from the need for legislative amendment, it must be remembered both SAPS and IPID reported to the same authority and so there cannot be counter litigation – R10 million could fund many posts. What was being done about this? The Committee might need to intervene.

Mr McBride responded that IPID was working with the Johannesburg Metro Police Department (JMPD) to come up with ideas around vetting and constantly “keeping the water pure” i.e. filtering of staff at the beginning by ensuring appointment of the most appropriately qualified and use of training to improve qualifications. Regular vetting would also ensure this stream of water was kept pure. The individual who came in was not the same individual ten years later due to contamination. A draft project plan would be ready by the end of September for IPID’s own cadet programme from the learnership – there would be recruitment and training of people so they could be absorbed by the organisation. Starting with a new, fresh base in this way would ensure there was no contamination of the system. Some of these ideas came from discussions with the Minister to ensure IPID weaned itself away from using former SAPS members and to maintain independence between IPID and SAPS. During the suspension of the current leadership of IPID, SAPS Crime Intelligence members infiltrated IPID – these members were also involved with the Mabula team. One of these members was Mr Tlou Kgomo.

In the natural course of IPID’s work, there would be necessary tension between the Directorate and SAPS. Often this tension was escalated to the Minister because the Minister needs to make SAPS shine but IPID revealed corruption and abuse within SAPS – IPID did not choose these cases, all cases are as a result of complaints. It almost appeared as if IPID was undoing the good work SAPS and the Minister were doing but this was not the intention. In fact, in many cases, IPID cleared SAPS and found there to be false charges against SAPS members or insufficient evidence. It was perhaps an appropriate time to think about the positioning and reporting of IPID – should it be under Justice or the Presidency? The new IPID Act must look at this. To a large extent this discussion was ignored because it was sensitive due to inferences drawn but there is a need for the discussion.

Mr McBride said IPID, looking at the future, lacked skills in terms of investigating complex corruption and racketeering – in SA, even at prosecutorial level, there was very little skill to draw on for investigating racketeering. This is even more important in light of the Zondo Commission. The level of corruption and racketeering is so high. When Mr Phahlane sent his North West team after IPID, this was racketeering because it was using state resources. The benefit of racketeering was promotion. By digging deeper, more benefits would be found. There is also a cultural issue within SAPS – the police, in one way or another, is one of the oldest organisations in SA steeped in its own history and traditions. The older the culture, the older its tradition and the harder it is for it to change. The concept of having investigative oversight over the police is a new one under constitutional democracy. The police did not like this oversight and felt immediate resistance to it. Career police came with a particular attitude and culture having moved through different legislative and political environments. These members need to be reoriented to what a constitutional democracy, what respect for human rights and what respect for the rule of law means, hence litigation. These were matters Mr McBride raised and told the police when he addressed its lekgotla. Sometimes two officers would be patrolling together, come under fire by suspects and survive the attack. A special bond formed between people who went through danger together but this did not mean corruption, infringement of human rights or wrongdoing should be covered up. If a police member had knowledge of an offence, it was within his/her oath to reveal it – one could not turn the other way if an offence is committed in one’s presence.  This would be criminal.

IPID would undertake to do whatever is possible within the current framework, and with the assistance of other state agencies, to do a full lifestyle audit of all Senior Management Service (SMS) members of IPID between now and the end of the financial year.

Ms A Molebatsi (ANC) asked about the nature of legal services rendered by the state attorney during the 2017/18 financial year. Why was there a delay in the issuing of invoices? Has IPID identified a new building to lease to house its national office? Does IPID have any remaining satellite offices? She asked where the IPID CFO was. Was IPID investigating SAPS members involved in cash-in-transit heists? Cpt. KGB Tshabalala was mentioned in these heists in the book “Heist! South Africa’s Cash-in-transit Epidemic Uncovered” by Anneliese Burgess.

Mr McBride said that in almost every cash-in-transit heists, police were involved. Not once had the police or anyone else invited IPID to be part of an investigation. Some of the police involved in the rendition matter were also involved in the 2002 heist in Witbank. KGB became a veteran of cash-in-transit heists. The police must make a decision to clean itself out.  

Mr Senna responded to outstanding invoices by noting it was a measure implemented to improve spending, as referenced in the presentation, to follow up with suppliers on all outstanding invoices for payments. The invoices related to travel agencies for travel and accommodation. Delays in submission of invoices from travel agents were expected as they waited for their service providers invoices, such as hotels and car rental agencies. This did not affect the 30 day deadline because this applied from the date the invoice was received from the service provider.

Ms Moroasui said the state attorney rendered legal services to IPID, or represented IPID, on cases it was involved in. The state attorney also briefed counsel on behalf of IPID. The state attorney also appointed attorneys to act on behalf of IPID if there was conflict with another state department.

Mr Dlamini responded that IPID had numerous problems regarding the building. A decision was taken to do an assessment of the current building to use as a business case to motivate for the deviation from the DPW process.

Ms L Mabija (ANC) raised the matter of the death of a police officer working in Masina during the rendition of Zimbabweans. The officer was sent to Cape Town and returned home in a coffin. Did IPID find it necessary to investigate circumstances around this member’s death? Did he die of natural causes or was he physically eliminated, perhaps because he knew too much? She was concerned because she stayed on the same street as the officer. It was still shocking that this occurred.

Mr McBride waited for this question for three years because the lie spun by the former Minister of Police, Mr Nkosinathi Nhleko, to this Committee was what got the current IPID leadership suspended. Mr Nhleko told the Committee a heap of codswallop to say witnesses died mysteriously – the post-mortem showed the police member died from sickness i.e. natural causes. This was the same lie Mr Berning Ntlemeza, former head of the DPCI, told the High Court and resulted in him losing his job. IPID has a copy of the death certificate but this lie continued to be perpetuated. Such lies are part of where state capture started because out of this fake charges against the former head of the DPCI, Mr Anwa Dramat, and former head of the DPCI in Gauteng, Mr Shadrack Sibiya, were launched. IPID was pleased that the NPA decided to follow what was found by IPID. All the money wasted and lives ruined came from the lie of a mysterious death.

Ms M Mmola (ANC) requested a written report on the PSC matter. Did IPID investigate that Mr Cedric Nkabinde (suspended IPID investigator) was promised a post by SAPS and if so, what was the outcome of this investigation? What was done about the report circulated to Members? She wanted to know why the Directorate’s CFO was not present to deliver the financial performance in the quarterly report. Why was the 45% of decision ready cases completed from total cases received not achieved? 45% as a target was too low – it should be above 50% for the Committee to see that IPID was working.

Mr McBride said Mr Nkabinde submitted a grievance to IPID about a post for which he did not apply. The grievance was handed over to labour relations and an Advocate was appointed. Members should ask why emails were sent to them and why it was not going through a process. An investigation was held which came down to consequence management. The recommendation was based on a meeting purportedly held – one person said such a meeting was held while the other denied it. Even if such a meeting was held, one would need to see what the content of the meeting was and whether it constituted anything improper.  The sum total of the report hung on this meeting. The only thing to do is to send the matter back to labour relations to appoint another investigator and for people to make affidavits. Mr Nkabinde took the same case to the Public Protector and the Minister of Police to intervene in his disciplinary – no such thing would happen. There was no law to stop consequence management. Mr Nkabinde must face the music. The Public Service Bargaining Council kicked his case out. The position of IPID on the matter is that Mr Nkabinde was a rogue investigator and was offered a job by Crime Intelligence, as others in IPID could attest to. Mr Nkabinde only wrote his first letter when he was kicked off the task team. He then went on a campaign to undo all cases where he was the lead investigator – there were affidavits where he attested to his investigations and findings against Lt. Gen. Phahlane. The Serious Commercial Crimes Court in Johannesburg said Mr Nkabinde was an unreliable person. Mr Nkabinde must allow the proper, fair and equitable process to run its course.

Mr McBride said the IPID CFO was not well and was having an operation which explained why she was absent. She did not disappear mysteriously like some SAPS members. Ms Nomkhosi Netsianda (IPID Chief Director: Corporate Services) had arranged leave months ago and this was why she was not present. IPID arranged leave at the beginning of the year and officials stuck to it as far as possible. Bookings for today’s meeting were also already made.

Mr Sesoko added that a criminal investigation was opened on that matter of a post offered to Mr Nkabinde over and above the disciplinary investigation. It is important to note that when the allegation first surfaced, management did not assume it was true. A meeting was called of all task team members to question whether they were approached. All task team members indicated they were not approached. The only members approached were Mr Nkabinde and Mr Mahlangu (IPID investigator). Mr Mahlangu provided recordings of this approach. The offer of the post of Brigadier was a form of gratification hence the investigation of a case of corruption and defeating the ends of justice in relation to this matter. The disciplinary inquiry was also being pursued in relation to this.

On the 45% target, this was a yearly target in the strategic objectives of IPID. The target for the number of investigators trained was surpassed. A plan was devised to ensure provinces assisted each other to ensure there was catching up on this 45% target – it is believed the target would be met by the end of the year.

Ms Moroasui said the Committee could be provided with a full report dealing with the PSC matter.

The Chairperson asked that this be done as soon as possible because the Speaker asked the Committee to report on it.

Mr Z Mbhele (DA) noted the litany of examples of SAPS non-cooperation outlined by IPID such as refusal to declassify or hand over documents, challenges to the section 205 subpoena and failure to initiate disciplinary proceedings against accused senior members. IPID and SAPS have the same principal in the form of the Minister so was IPID getting assistance and cooperation from the National Commissioner and Minister to address these problems? What was IPID’s assessment of where exactly these problems lied? Could IPID rely on remedial interventions by the Commissioner and Minister? What were the challenges or constraints on the side of the Commissioner and Minister? There was a clear deviation on the theoretical way these matters should operate. Given the delay in implementation of the needed expansion strategy over the last couple of years, due to fiscal constraints and disruption in leadership, has IPID given any forethought to pressures regarding short to medium term fiscal pressures and partnerships to mitigate such funding pressures? Looking at expenditure per province, the 14% spend on goods and services in KZN jumps out as very low – why was this so? The KZN office of IPID came up in past oversight visits of the Committee as being a possible weak link in the Directorate. Could this point to a continuation of structural, chronic under capacity or mismanagement?

Mr Sesoko said IPID accepted the financial situation it found itself in. The cadet programme would commence and run for three years. It was hoped the fiscal situation would have changed after the three years to the extent that would be funding for the expansion strategy. The strategy was being reviewed to also look at building capacity for support functions in the provinces which were originally not catered for e.g. investigators were helping out with the work of programme four where capacity for this should be built. An application for funding was made from the European Union, which Treasury made IPID aware of, to fund some of these activities. These were the kinds of steps taken to deal with the current fiscal situation.

Mr Senna responded to the low spend on goods and services in KZN noting one of the satellite offices closed was in KZN which resulted in realised savings because the allocation had already been made before the office closed. This money would be used for strategic procurement. This is internal shifting in order to address key matters in all provinces.

Mr J Maake (ANC) asked if it was within the IPID mandate to investigate police killing each other e.g. a wife and a husband, who were both police members, where one shot the other at home? What were the stumbling blocks causing delays in filling vacancies? What was meant by “waiting for concurrence”? What informed the target of 150, for example, investigations of death in police custody or rape by a police officer? How did IPID know there would 150 such cases? He then asked how far the Directorate was with review of the IPID Act.

Mr McBride replied that IPID investigated death by police action so in such a case, IPID would investigate it. IPID was often not informed of murder-suicides involving two police officers who are perhaps partners.

Mr Dlamini spoke to delays in filling posts explaining IPID developed a structure, requested funding and sent the structure to the Minister for approval. The Minister of Public Service and Administration would also have to agree to the structure before it could be implemented. There was a change of Ministers in the environments when the structure was first submitted for approval and this caused delays. The current Minister of Police approved the structure and it was now with the current Minister of Public Service and Administration. An implementation plan was developed so that once the structure was approved, the posts could be filled. There was also a Post Office strike and timelines had to be extended to cater for those delays. Most positions were advertised and the process for filling them was at an advanced stage. It was hoped most vacancies in the current structure would be filled by the end of the month.

Mr Maake noted that his question was really about the problem with concurrence – he was not happy to hear the response that IPID “hoped”. People were waiting for posts.

Mr Dlamini answered that IPID submitted to and followed up with the relevant ministries to ensure there was the necessary approval. The IPID Executive Director met with the Minister of Police who subsequently signed off on the structure. The process was now with another Ministry and IPID was not in a position to speak for that Ministry as to reasons for the delay. IPID could only follow up, which it has done. 

Mr Sesoko explained that when IPID set targets, it looked at baselines from previous years i.e. performance achieved in previous years together with the actual capacity. Based on this, an extrapolation would then be done for an appropriate target for the next financial year. An estimation was made based on the history of what the Directorate had received. Percentages were no longer used as it skewed the numbers. The actual number of cases was used to inform the target as this was more accurate.

Mr Maake said the problem was that if IPID made its target investigation of 65 cases of police rape, and there were in fact only four of these cases, the Committee would not be pleased the target of 65 was not met. 

Mr Sesoko again explained the annual target was 65 so IPID expected to receive 65 rape cases for the year. This 65 was based on an extrapolation of historical statistical data over the years because IPID could not know how many police officers would rape people in a year. Investigation of five cases was targeted for the first quarter but there was an achievement of only three. Using historical data was the most scientific way of setting targets and determining the baseline of actual performance. 

Ms Moroasui said IPID finalised its internal work on the IPID Act. This was handed to the Civilian Secretariat of Police to take the matter forward. Other matters have arisen which need to be inserted as amendments to the Act – this would be done internally and sent to the Secretariat to put forward to Parliament.

Ms D Kohler Barnard (DA) asked when this work was handed over to the Secretariat.

Ms Moroasui said this was done in December 2017.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked that the Committee be provided with the name of the landlord of the building DPW was trying to strong-arm the Directorate into buying – a criminal case should be laid against these people. The Member was happy to lay the charge herself. The matter must be investigated and reasons found for why DPW was trying to force IPID into buying the building – if everything was above board, DPW officials would not be sneaking around approaching IPID on an individual basis. She asked if Treasury provided reasons why IPID’s salaries were lower than other government departments – how was IPID expected to retain staff if salaries were not competitive? How far would IPID go in contracting and closing down offices to survive? There cannot be provinces with no offices. The key focus of IPID was investigations yet only 52% of the target was achieved and there were only 14 criminal convictions. These cases involved police killings, torture and rape – these members remained in the SAPS and for some, there was no investigation at all on the side of the police. It was clear SAPS still did not take the investigations and recommendations of IPID seriously or ignored. IPID recorded 16 cases of rape by police officer, only 14 ended up in court, one of them for rape – there were 15 rape accused SAPS still working at police stations. IPID must understand that SAPS saw it as the enemy and would do anything to undermine it, as we have seen. What was IPID doing proactively to bolster itself against this attitude? IPID is a crucial body but was being undermined completely. She asked why IPID was looking at wanting to do oversight over the crime intelligence budget – what informed this? She asked if IPID was aware that Public Service Administration (PSA) SAPS members were being pushed into becoming Designated Firearm Officers (DFO) all over the country which was in total contravention of the law – was this something for IPID to investigate?

Mr McBride informed the Member that the building was owned by Mr Roux Shabangu.

Ms Mabija asked Ms Kohler Barnard why she was so happy.

Ms Kohler Barnard said it was under Mr Shabangu that Bheki Cele was fired as National Commissioner of Police. Mr Cele signed the lease where Mr Shabangu charged rent so high that SAPS could have bought the building in a few months. This was how Mr Shabangu operated – he had buildings which DPW rented out. Mr Shabangu was earning a lot of money out of the state. Ms Kohler Barnard was now on his tail. Crime Intelligence approached her wanting to see her laptop after she received an email from Mr Paul O’Sullivan. Crime Intelligence tried every trick in the book including bugging MPs and their laptops.

Mr McBride said that in other countries, when it came to crime intelligence, and other intelligence, and funding for covert matters, even when working for the national interest of the state, there was democratic oversight. Under constitutional democracies, there is a need for oversight of all money belonging to the people and accountability. In other models, even before covert operations are launched, presentations would be made to a panel on the objectives hoped to be achieved with a particular operation. Periodic report-back was also required to determine if there was value for money – if not, the operation would be shut down. Motivation would be required before the operation was launched to ensure it was in line with the national interest of the state in pursuing its domestic or foreign policy. There would also be accounting to Parliament on how the money was spent. Hiding behind a screen of classification was an absolute anathema to a constitutional democracy. IPID had a situation where pure criminality, as shown by the IGI, was hidden behind classification. It was within the power of the National Commissioner to declassify documents. SAPS’ sole purpose of existence is to protect and serve – to make people feel and be safe, detect and prevent crime. SAPS were in the process of allowing crime to continue by hiding behind classification. This was untenable hence IPID having to go to declaratory to the Constitutional Court. Classification was misused and abused while criminality and wrongdoing continued. There were other oversight models for how one dealt with intelligence matters.

Regarding salaries, the salary scale was inappropriate. The aim was for people not be tempted by a post of Brigadier and write about allegations all over the show. IPID investigators should be on par with SAPS in terms of appropriate remuneration. It was through the order of the Labour Court that this matter must be resolved. The challenge has always been the squeezing of IPID’s budget. A reduced budget impacted negatively on IPID’s ability to fulfil its mandate. Since its inception, IPID has been under-budgeted and all units that should be within IPID, in terms of the present Act, were not in place. IPID had to rely on its own commitment to the task and mission. At the Independent Police Complaints Commission in the UK, in addition to 1 000 investigators, there was a whole section dedicated for intelligence. The Commission did not always have this but the organisation evolved according to needs arising. Other legislation needed to change to allow for IPID to have an intelligence unit, not an information unit. The Executive Director of IPID could already request intercepts from a Judge – this presupposes the Directorate requires this intelligence. It was only through its own hard work, late nights and meetings at all hours that IPID could get information. In February 2018, IPID was made aware of approaches on its investigators – this was monitored and put under surveillance not because IPID had capacity but because it had to as its very existence depended on it. Everybody was given a chance to come clean but the only person to do so was Mr Mahlangu. Countering of IPID’s efforts would always be a reality. The police have abused their powers throughout the centuries and would continue to do so. The matter would not end with Mr Nkabinde, there were many Nkabindes. This was an ongoing war. Who wins depends on the will, commitment and patriotism. However, will, patriotism and commitment needed something to fight with. In short, IPID should have its own salary band independent and separate from the public service or the police because the Directorate was losing key staff in support services because they were not paid what was due to them. A decision was taken to look for higher educated people with scare skills but the money was not right. IPID would die a slow death because of the salary scales and the entire purpose of the investigative unit would be lost and the police would return to their bad ways. In just a little time under Mr Nhleko, the SAPS and DPCI went downhill because wrongdoing was the order of the day. Everybody watched and saw this happening but because IPID did not have funding, it was unable to respond.

Mr Sesoko responded to the cases where steps were not taken against SAPS members after IPID made recommendations noting that this was one of the matters IPID was fighting SAPS about because the IPID Act said SAPS must initiate and report progress made. IPID engaged the police on the matter to explain the police could not, on its own, decide not to take disciplinary action against its members where IPID made a recommendation. If there was a dispute regarding the recommendations, SAPS should write to IPID and explain the dispute. Valid matters can be discussed and the recommendation could perhaps be changed. 

Mr P Mhlongo (EFF) thought the Zondo Commission was an indication of the depth of corruption in the country which was out of proportion and threatening democracy big time. Without a determined method of fighting this enemy of the state, the entire democracy could be vanquished. He relayed an incident of a SAPS Captain in KZN protecting one of his unit members from being molested on a daily basis from another SAPS member in KwaMashu. This Captain was thinking of leaving the country because the police were after his life. He was in hiding and could no longer see his wife and children. The matter was escalated to the head of the Hawks in KZN but this was simply pushed under the desk.

SAPS was rewarding evil at the expense of goodness. There was a container in a KZN port filled with drugs which was allowed into the country – senior police officials ordered that this cargo be released. This container was in Walvis Bay as the Committee sat. The police are just a law unto themselves. The police were making a mockery of Parliament and it was nonsense. The things people fought for and died for were being undermined by the police. Democracy would implode because of the police. IPID should be enjoying support from the police yet Members heard at meetings that the police were fighting crime – which crimes? The police were spearheading crime themselves and the Committee was too diplomatic about this. The country would implode with the way the police was perpetuating organised crime. These incidents were no secret. Many put their lives on the line to fight against this during the days of Apartheid. Was IPID getting the support it needed from the Hawks? The Directorate would certainly not succeed alone as its mandate was quite limited in dealing with organised crime. Did IPID receive the additional R20 million requested?

Mr McBride said under Gen. Godfrey Lebeya, current head of the DPCI, there was increased support and commitment. Gen. Lebeya went about this in a persistent, meticulous, quiet way to provide support where the Hawks worked with IPID on cases. In such cases, additional resources would be made available. Gen. Lebeya was in a difficult situation as he came into an organisation which had been hollowed out by Mr Ntlemeza and Mr Nhleko, where security guards were infiltrated, sent for training in China and then sent into Crime Intelligence. This was a rotten organisation where false charges were made against Minister Pravin Gordhan, members of IPID, Mr Paul O’Sullivan by the Crimes against the State Unit within DPCI. People were improperly appointed in the DPCI – Gen. Lebeya needed to clean this out otherwise he would be undermined, stabbed in the back and cases would be buried far away under dust as was done under Mr Ntlemeza, where cases which should have been investigated were not. Gen. Lebeya provided IPID with as much support as he could. Mr McBride had great hope for the DPCI under the leadership of Gen. Lebeya, who is a man of the utmost integrity.

Mr McBride said IPID dealt with systemic corruption. People came to IPID when they were sick and tired of corruption and state capture. There was a flood of information and IPID did not have enough capacity to handle it. The rot ran deep. Elements and groups within SAPS served as a vehicle for crime – they committed crime. IPID started interviewing some people about the ship in Walvis Bay – the Directorate did not have the key information yet but it was in the process of looking at it. People were scared to talk out of fear of victimisation – there are a group of police with immense power victimising people.

Ms Mmola asked if it was correct for Mr McBride to answer Member’s questions on the absence of the CFO by saying “she did not disappear like members of SAPS”. Members had a right to ask about the CFO. On the Nkabinde emails, the Executive Director must tell be truthful with the Committee on the challenges otherwise people would send Members emails. Members should have their questions answered respectively.

Mr McBride said the way he answered on the CFO was correct and he would not change it. It should be understood there was a good reason why the CFO was not present. IPID should not be made to feel as if it was guilty or were suspects. He did not care what Mr Nkabinde said – he was shown to be a liar and so could continue lying. Others could attest to this. He (Mr McBride) was not the enemy. If questions were put to him in a funny way, he would answer in a funny way. He is a mirror – what was done to him would be returned. IPID accounted to the Committee yet it was constantly accused of rendition when it was known Mr Nhleko lied to Parliament about it. Three years later, many had suffered as part of this state capture. IPID had the file and medical records to show that the police member dying mysteriously was in fact sick. This sickness could not have occurred as a result of foul play.

Mr Senna said the R20 million was not yet received from SAPS. It was hoped the full allocation would take place during the adjusted budget process in October.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked if a criminal case was opened regarding the official approaching IPID individually to buy Mr Shabangu’s building.

Mr Maake asked if the funding from the EU was a donation. Were there conditions attached? What type of conditions?

Mr Sesoko responded that IPID received communiqué from Treasury about this developmental funding from the EU which departments could apply for. Specific projects would have to be identified for which the funding would be used. The condition is that the request could not be for something already in the baseline budget e.g. to employ investigators. The funding could however be requested to pay for specialised services such as forensic investigators, as IPID was doing with its current investigations because of the complex nature of the financial information to be analysed. Fortunately these services were paid for by National Treasury.

Mr Maake asked what the process was to work with external investigators – was there vetting? Are they subject to secrecy agreements?

Mr Sesoko answered that IPID did not have the funds to pay for forensic investigators so it applied to Treasury for this assistance. A tender would then be put out and Treasury would pay for the services. IPID would brief the investigators on the work it was seeking assistance with. These investigators did not have access to the entire investigation, only to the information requiring financial analysis. A forensic report would then be produced which assisted IPID to prosecute the case.

The Chairperson asked if IPID was approached to provide any input on the current reconfiguration of government process as announced by the President – the discussion of the positioning of IPID was an important one and will always be on the table. Looking at skills IPID would need in the next five to ten years, and the remuneration policy, to investigate systemic corruption etc, what was the plan of IPID in this regard? Would the services of specialists be contracted? Would the 27 new posts be utilised in terms of specialised structure? Contracting would take from IPID’s baseline budget and capacity was not really created. What was the plan to ensure IPID had this capacity?

Mr McBride said IPID was not approached for input on government restructuring. Aspects of restructuring and rearrangement would be made to the Zondo Commission. Hopefully by then there would be some debate or direction on policy from various role-players. The Minister has also questioned the matter of the positioning of IPID.

Mr E Buthelezi (IFP) asked why it was hard for IPID to get information regarding the TUT shooting.

Mr Sesoko responded that when IPID became aware of the shooting, its investigators went to the crime scene and interacted with the university community. Statements were received from security officers and other role players. The problem was that there was no statement from anyone directly witnessing a SAPS member shoot, despite this being said to the media.  Hence IPID meeting with the SRC to try and get witness to assist in completing the investigation

Mr Mbhele noted the response to his question on cooperation IPID received from the Minister and National Commissioner was still outstanding. 

Mr Sesoko said there was cooperation to some extent. For instance with its investigations, IPID would request specific documents. SAPS internal audit would assist in providing the IPID team working on an investigation with documents required such as those relating to procurement etc. This cooperation was not present in matters of declassification and litigation was used as a resort when it could have been resolved between IPID and SAPS as sister departments. Info notes were sent to the Minister on investigations including the declassification matter. The Minister requested IGI provide an opinion and the opinion was that the documents could be declassified. SAPS was now saying the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence must do this but IPID strongly disagreed as declassification could be done by the head of the organisation or the person who classified the document, in terms of the law. Hence the need for litigation. 

The Chairperson asked if there was an increase in misconduct or criminal complaints of SAPS members from university campuses or TVET colleges this year. Was there any flurry of complaints in this regard IPID could inform the Committee of?

Mr Sesoko could not think of anything but he would go back and check the statistical information and a definitive answer could then be provided. Quite a number of complaints were received in light of Fees Must Fall.

Mr Mhlongo wanted to know what IPID expected from the side of the Committee. He was disappointed that IPID was shutting down offices because of lack of funding. It was important that IPID was visible in all provinces so that people could access the services of the Directorate. Some people did not know that IPID literally existed. He was concerned that South Africa rewarded evil and not what was in the best interests of the country. There are so many complaints about the behaviour of the police and how they acted as a law unto themselves. Treasury was not from heaven – the Committee needed to hear if it understood the situation the country faced.

Mr Mhlongo spoke to the untenable situation of political killings in KZN – the information was there but there was no action. KZN was where the former President was from and where things were happening which was being escalated to the country as a whole. The challenges must be dealt with. The Committee should be alive to this reality and interact broadly with these matters.

Mr McBride stressed that IPID had not received the support from the quarters where it was expected, throughout the years. The funding received from SAPS had to be negotiated by IPID itself through cajoling, squeezing and wrangling – SAPS must have agreed to the funding just to stop the nagging of IPID. The Minister has not put into action proper engagement with Treasury to say a certain amount of funding must got to IPID because there is a need. A business case has been made for extra money since he has been Executive Director. Since inception, IPID should have had much more resources.

Security guards were recruited for DPCI. The advertisement was made in 2016, a few thousands applied and by September 2016, the guards were appointed – these guards did not come from the thousands that applied, were not assessed or shortlisted. IPID’s information was that these 20 guards were chosen by Indoni NGO – this information required further investigation. This NGO was linked to the woman who later became the wife of the former Minister of Police, Mr Nhleko. This was also the NGO where Mr Nhleko’s former Chief of Staff worked before he came to the police. IPID made complaints about this Chief of Staff to the Committee and proof was provided to the State Security Agency – this Chief of Staff changed his name, had a criminal record and used an illegal ID to get jobs. The guards then went for training – IPID’s information showed this was in China but other information said Russia. Why would security guards, off the street, chosen by a NGO go for offensive weapon training? After the training was complete, why were they then slipped into Crime Intelligence under the cover of the murky world of classification? Irregularities around the process showed these people were meant to be part of the system but through nefarious means to carry out nefarious activities. Before the end of November, IPID will have the information. Without exaggeration, the Directorate was working day and night on this because it should worry everyone that this process was carried out in this way. This was done under the instruction of Mr Nhleko and Mr Ntlemeza under the connivance of the former Divisional Commissioner of Crime Intelligence – they will have to explain this. Within the next week or so, IPID would be able to identify who the people are involved because it has their names. There was cooperation of DPCI.

Ms Mabija felt frustrated because it was as if the institutions, over which the Committee had oversight, were lying to Members. She was uncomfortable because Mr McBride said Mr Ntlemeza was lying but he might be the one lying. It was not clear where the Committee stood on people in charge of institutions telling the truth – it was mind boggling. How could Mr McBride be trusted? How do Members know if other Executive Directors of institutions in the Committee’s mandate were also lying? Who was to be believed?

The Chairperson said it was important for Members to ask questions if there was disagreement with a particular version or testimony and the institution would then have to explain – this is the to and fro of parliamentary oversight.

Mr Mbhele said the general matter of misrepresentation and untruths told to committees of Parliament was of huge concern. Mr McBride has touched on the fabrications and distortions  given to the Committee relating to rendition situation. He distinctly remembered the lengthy, painstaking presentation provided to Members by former Minister Nhleko on these renditions. He recalled telling the Minister something does not sound right or ring comfortably with the presentation. The Minister attacked him and accused him of lying and defaming his character. Some among us remember this and are not surprised by the revelations coming out. He received communication from the Public Protector based on his complaint about the relationship between Indoni and the funding it received – this would be pursued. There must be consequences.

The Chairperson noted that the Committee would reconvene in the second week of October where Annual Reports, audits and Budgetary Review and Recommendation Reports would be dealt with. This would be a busy time in terms of deadlines. There would also be priority briefings scheduled for the next term including joint meetings with other Committees. The draft programme would be circulated in due course. This included an analysis of the Crime Stats.

The meeting was adjourned.   

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