SAPS 2018/19 Budget: Programme 3 Detectives & DPCI; Programme 5 Protection & Security Services

Meeting report

The Chairperson noted that Programme 3: Detective Services included the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI). The Committee aimed to adopt its Committee Report on the SAPS Budget hearing by Wednesday next week and therefore this means that there would be a lot of work that the Committee staff would need to do over the weekend.

General Khehla Sitole, SAPS National Commissioner, introduced the new divisional commissioner for Detective Services, Lt Gen Tebello Mosikili, as well as Lt Gen Samson Sitlabane as the new divisional commissioner for Protection and Security Services.  The new provincial commissioner for Free State is Lt Gen Moeletsi Sempe.

Programme 3: Detective Services
Maj Gen Leon Rabie, Head: Strategic Management, SAPS; indicated that the purpose of Programme 3 is to enable the investigative work of the SAPS, including providing support to investigators in terms of forensic evidence and the Criminal Record Centre.

Detective Services has four sub programmes: Crime Investigation; Criminal Record Centre; Forensic Science Laboratory, and Specialised Investigations which is the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) (see document for details). Within Crime Investigation, the budget is broken down as follows: Detection (R10.288 billion), Vehicle Theft Units (R521 million), Stock Theft Units (R574 million) and Family Violence and Child Protection Units (R1.009 billion). There is a continued focus on Forensic Services also taking into account new legislation. The Crime Prevention and Security (CJS) revamp initiatives (operational portion) will also strongly promote further capacity enhancement at Forensics and Criminal Record Centre (R580.5 million), training and general detective capacity (R115.9 million) and Information Technology (IT) (R747.5 million). Specialised Investigations consisting of DPCI has significant resourcing (R1.617 billion) especially from 2012/13. Effective from 2016/17, the National Treasury has allocated the budget allocation for this purpose as specifically and exclusively.

SAPS target is to increase the detection rate for serious crime to 37%. The target for the percentage of trial-ready case dockets for serious crime is 84.21%. SAPS aimed to increase the conviction rate for serious crime to 88.64%. There is also a plan to increase the detection rate for contact crimes to 55%.

SAPS planned to increase detection rate for crimes committed against women 18 years and above (murder, attempted murder, all sexual offences, common assault and assault GBH) to 75% and to increase the detection rate for crimes committed against children under 18 years (murder, attempted murder, all sexual offences, common assault and assault GBH) to 70%.  There is a plan to increase detection rate for criminal and violent conduct during public protests.
 
Lt Gen Yolisa Matakata, Acting Head: DPCI; said that DPCI had a target to increase percentage of trial-ready case dockets for fraud and corruption by individuals within the JCPS cluster measured against the total fraud and corruption cases not finalised in court to 60%.  There was a plan to increase detection rate for serious commercial crime-related charges to 80%. DPCI planned to increase percentage of trial-ready case dockets for serious commercial crime-related charges to 53%. There is a 100% target for dismantling identified clandestine laboratories.

Maj Gen Rabie indicated that a draft policy on cybercrime has been developed. However due to the complexities of cybercrime; the Department is in consultation with Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR) and Cybersecurity Response Committee (CRC).
           
Discussion 
The Chairperson indicated that the National Development Plan (NDP) made a provision for specialised units within the detective environment but then there is challenge of limited resources. Which units then would be prioritised? There is also a problem of cash-in-transit heists and this is a type of crime that would require a specialised unit.  What was the update on the finalisation of staff establishment of DPCI and progress on the structure of DPCI? The mandate of DPCI was extremely huge especially dealing with crime syndicates and lots of successes here would be dependent on having the right technology. Was there technological capability within SAPS?

Ms M Molebatsi (ANC) asked about the progress on the shortage of DNA kits at station level. It was still unclear what exactly happened when the Committee met with the Portfolio Committee on Justice to have a joint meeting with the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) and DPCI as it looked as if DPCI got cold feet [about its complaints about the NPA]. There was confusion in the responses by DPCI in that joint meeting. There are a lot of raids and confiscation of documents but no actual arrests and this is a concern. Was there an acting head in the detective environment? There was a problem of cybercrime in the country and the important question is whether the country is up to the challenge to address cybercrime.

Ms L Mabija (ANC) spoke about how an improved conviction rate would contribute to people regaining confidence in SAPS.

Ms M Mmola (ANC) expressed concern about DPCI targets being extremely low but not being achieved.  Why not improve the targets? The Committee should be provided with progress on the need for DPCI to have a separate budget. What was the progress on the structure of DPCI?
           
Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) said that she was happy that there had been a reintroduction of some the performance indicators. It needed to be thought through before the removal of any performance indicators.  The performance indicators needed to be exactly the same each year. There seemed to be low targets for property related crime especially since this is one of the most feared crimes. There was a concern about forensic labs and how they sometimes bungled evidence thus letting criminals off the hook and this needed to be addressed. The establishment of the cybercrime centre was welcomed as this was long overdue considering how criminals are stealing huge amounts of money through cybercrime. The question should asked whether there would be enough personnel in this cybercrime centre. The Committee was not interested in how DPCI or SAPS was catching young people with a small bag of marijuana but the priority should be catching criminals who run the drug laboratories. Rhino poaching should be prevented as this was a main tourist attraction. It would be important to hear about the relationship between DPCI and NPA and whether this relationship had improved.

Mr Z Mbhele (DA) asked if SAPS was using the same formula as the NPA for conviction rate targets.  The use of conviction rate as a target looked a bit absurd. Was this a meaningful target to be included as the Committee is more interested in ensuring that the complaints of people around crime are addressed? It would be important to hear if there is established capacity and training for the National Cybercrime Centre. Are we on track to meet the target of training 120 personnel for the National Cybercrime Centre? There seemed to be administrative challenges that needed to be dealt with in many cases adjudicated in court. For example, in the case of a man who threw the baby from the top of his roof was the difficulty with the categorisation of the case - was it attempted murder or child abuse? Was this not an administrative issue that needed to be dealt with immediately even before the case reaches court. There was also the same challenge in the case of the late Ms Karabo Mokoena who was murdered last year.

Mr P Mhlongo (EFF) said that it was concerning to see the amount of money that SAPS had already spent on information technology and communication (ITC). The Committee should be briefed why there is such a large amount of money spent on ITC without any progress being made. The approach of SAPS looked as if it  focused only on the needs and the budget was considered only at a later stage. Was this a correct deduction? The detection rate for property related crime was extremely low. There are identified challenges in the inability to trace criminals due to problems with fingerprints and this should be addressed. There was a target of 18% for detection of corruption while the reality on the ground is that corruption was out of control. Corruption in South Africa would likely lead the country to a failed state.  It is clear that South Africa was on a path to become a failed state like all other African countries because of monumental corruption. This target of 18% by the DPCI was an insult to South Africans. It would be important to know if there is any relationship between DPCI specialised units and Detective Services. Was cybercrime now to be the domain of DPCI?

Mr J Maake (ANC) suggested that perhaps there is a need to go back and hunt down the retired detectives. The retired detectives needed to be brought back as these are people with experience. The Committee wanted to see progress being made where criminals are being arrested and brought to book.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if proactive action was taken to reduce the backlog of case dockets that are on detective desks. There were reported cases where detectives are not able to deal with some cases because of this backlog. What have you done to ameliorate this?  

Gen Sitole responded that the new Head of Crime Intelligence, Lt-Gen Anthony Jacobs, yesterday spoke about two dimensions -  one is focusing on the threat while the other is focusing on the risk. The new CI Head had already started working on these two dimensions. Most important is how SAPS responds to the nature of the threat and how to mitigate the risks. There is also a look into which type of specialised unit to use to respond to the identified threat. The cash-in-transit heists are presenting a risk to the country but also presenting a risk to the brand economic strategy. SAPS has an obligation to respond to these heists and there is a look into what specialised unit is used to counter these heists. There is a stubborn modus operandi and also stubborn crime and the nature of the modus operandi would determine the type of response and specialisation that would be needed. There is also a look into the evaluation of the existing task teams and which ones are to be graduated to become specialised units. The best way of fighting crime is to redirect the resources where needed the most and this also speaks to the review of resources. SAPS will be look at the specialised unit that would be needed to respond to the escalation of crime. It would be important to firstly determine which of the specialised units are under resourced and this is in process currently.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if the DPCPI establishment of the National Bureau for Illegal Firearm and Priority Violent Crime (NBIFCPVC) and South African Narcotics Enforcement Bureau (SANEB) had been put on ice until SAPS was done with the evaluation of resources.
           
General Sitole clarified that they had not been put on ice but they are subjected to the current evaluation including an analysis of the modus operandi.

Lt Gen Bonang Mgwenya, SAPS Head of Human Resource Management, responded that a workshop was held over two days and the DPCI and SAPS structure were discussed. The labour unions decided that they wanted to consult their principals and there would be another engagement tomorrow. The DPCI structure is the one that was approved by the previous Minister of Police, Mr Nathi Nhleko. There are posts that are not funded and this talked to budget constraints.

The Chairperson expressed concern that there had been lack of progress in engaging with the labour unions. The Committee was particularly concerned about the amount of expertise leaving DPCI because of uncertainty as some of the posts are not being filled. There should be a proactive action taken to finalise the structure of DPCI. DPCI is our most prominent specialised unit to fight crime.

General Sitole replied that he would lead this process with the DPCI Acting Head and this matter would be given the urgent action it deserved.  

Lt Gen Matakata responded that the Committee was previously briefed on the priorities in fighting organised crime. DPCI was focused on narcotics, rhino poaching, illegal mining and other areas of concerns. The investigation by DPCI is threat based. DPCI was also focused on the syndicates that are there from level 3 upwards. DPCI was working jointly with Intelligence to deal with cases of organised crime. There are also major investigations that might be a project to be investigated further. There is collaboration in some of the investigations with other international law enforcement agencies especially in dealing with foreign nationals that are located in the country.

Mr Mbhele noted there should be downward collaboration with Metro Police by using existing by-law violations as a way to nail drug lords as this would disrupt their activities. This was not happening at the moment. This did not mean sharing highly sensitive information with the metro police but to collaborate in nailing down these criminals. 

Lt Gen Matakata responded that there was collaboration with Metro Police with a specific use of by-laws to nail down criminals. DPCI was focused on looking at the threat in totality to understand the threat to be addressed. There is a need to deal with incoming drugs in the country from different areas.

General Sitole replied that a cold case strategy has been introduced. There is a cold case analysis around the high-flyers. There is a multidisciplinary investigation undertaken to take down the high flyers. It is sometimes difficult to take down high flyers as you need to take down the first person next to the high-flyer. SAPS was using both conventional and unconventional methods of investigation. The conventional level is where there is wanted suspect matrix and DPCI was also conducting profiling of wanted suspects. The situation around high flyers would change drastically because of other changes to be made in some areas. The technological capability at the moment is not up to scratch and this was a major concern.

Lt Gen Magadlela, Divisional Commissioner: Forensics: SAPS, replied that there is a specification that is provided in the distribution of DNA kits to supply chain management which is responsible for the ordering of DNA kits. In essence, the distribution of DNA should be the sole responsibility of supply chain management. The shortage of DNA kits was also picked up in Engcobo and this was a question of management and this was not a big problem. There has been a big improvement in the distribution of DNA kits.

Ms Molebatsi wanted assurance that the shortage of DNA kits would be addressed as this was not the first time that the Committee had raised this.

The Chairperson said that this was the responsibility of station commanders to ensure that there is sufficient equipment including DNA kits and other resources at police stations.

General Sitole replied that the Committee can be assured that the problem of shortage of DNA kits would be addressed and those responsible for this problem would need to leave the organisation. SAPS would bring together Forensics and Visible Policing so as to speak on how to monitor police stations. The Committee is correct that it is in the job description of station commanders to ensure that all the equipment is available at police stations. The station commanders would need to be held accountable as this was their responsibility.

Lt Gen Tebello Mosikili, Divisional Commissioner: Detective Services, replied that there is monthly monitoring of the available DNA kits and there are plans in place to ensure that shortage of DNA kits does not impact on the investigation of serious cases.

Lt Gen Matakata commented that the joint committee meeting where the NPA and DPCI were both present was likely to be an ugly meeting as it had been decided prior that there would be a standoff in the Committee between myself as DPCI Acting Head and the NPA head. She requested that she respond in writing to most of the matters that were flagged in that joint meeting.

Ms Molebatsi indicated that the reason the Committee requested a joint meeting with NPA and DPCI was because DPCI mentioned that there were undue delays in the decisions taken by NPA to proceed with prosecution. What was frustrating at that meeting was when the DPCI Acting Head said there is a cordial working relationship with NPA as yet it was clear there was no cordial relationship between NPA and DPCI.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that cordial relationship was a generic phrase that was used to make reference to the specific matter that was being discussed in that meeting. There is a cordial relationship between the prosecutors and the investigators as DPCI was able to submit the case dockets.

Ms Mmola said that she was surprised when the NPA Head said he was not aware of any problems between DPCI and NPA as the relationship was smooth with continuous engagements on the progress of submitted case dockets. The important question is whether the DPCI Acting Head was able to express her frustrations to the NPA Head.

Ms Molebatsi asked if the relationship between NPA and DPCI had improved after the joint meeting.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that the relationship has improved as the NPA Head even made apologies for some of the things that were said in the meeting. There was a meeting where an apology was afforded as this was where I expressed my concern about some of the things that were said in that joint meeting.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that it was interesting that there was an apology afforded to Lt Gen Matakata behind closed doors. The Committee should have the NPA Head right here in the Committee to apologise in front of everyone so that we can all hear that apology. It was really unfair for Lt Gen Matakata to listen to all the horrible things that were said by the NPA Head in that joint meeting and then have him apologising behind closed doors.

Ms Mmola commented that it looked like the NPA Head and Lt Gen Matakata were playing with the Committee as they brought the issue here and apologised only outside the meeting. The NPA Head should be brought here to apologise publicly as the Committee was not even aware of what the NPA Head was apologising about. It was unacceptable to play with us as we are not toys to fight political battles.

The Chairperson indicated that the Committee was still waiting for the response in writing from Lt Gen Matakata from that joint meeting.

General Sitole assured the Committee that the matter involving the DPCI Acting Head and NPA would be addressed as this was important.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that there are daily media reports on matters where we have made arrests. We do make arrests on all our declared priorities. There were 133 arrests for seized drugs to the value of R84 million. DPCI has already closed down 90 drug laboratories and the arrests are attached to closing these down. DPCI was recently in the Committee in February where there was an indication of the arrests that had been made including for rhino poaching and illegal mining. In the fourth quarter (Jan-Mar 2018), there were 214 arrests for serious organised crime, 342 arrests for commercial crime and 157 arrests for corruption. There is a lot that DPCI is doing but sometimes it happens that these successes are not in the media space.

Ms Molebatsi commented that her interest was on these serious cases of corruption and commercial crime.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said the reason people did not know about the successes by DPCI is because they are not in the media. It would be important to know if information is being disseminated on the successes of DPCI. DPCI should be putting out a lot more of this information to the general public.

The Chairperson said that there was a drug bust reported yesterday and he only found about it as it was in the media.

Lt Gen Matakata said that she was not aware which media outlets exactly were reporting these successes but they are being provided to the media. There is quite a lot that DPCI was doing but this was not being reported by the media. 

General Sitole explained that SAPS had needed to appoint a new acting head for forensics since Lt Gen Phahlane had been suspended. The forensic environment had experienced challenges when it came to procurement. A decision had been made that someone senior with massive experience had to be involved in this division and that is why Lt Gen Magadlela was appointed to this position.

Ms Molebatsi asked who was currently in the position of quality controller in Forensics since Lt Gen Adeline Shezi was moved from this position to Technology Management Services (TMS).

The Chairperson asked about ways to address SAPS contract management as this was a major concern.

General Sitole replied that that quality assurance within Forensic was currently sits with one of the Major Generals in the forensic environment and this is to strengthen and stabilise the position. It was pleasing to see Lt Gen Magadlela hit the ground running.

The Chairperson asked if there was interaction between SAPS and the DNA Board. What is the view of SAPS of the current DNA Board and its effectiveness?

Lt Gen Magadlela replied that there is a lot of different expertise within the forensic environment as this included analyst scientists and police. The police are trained in the forensic environment to become experts. There are legislative prescripts that the forensic environment needed to adhere to especially the Criminal Procedure Act Amendment. It is important to avoid the circulation of DNA kits that are questionable and ensure that they conform to the international standard. Any company that provides SAPS with DNA kits should be credible and comply with all the standards. 

General Sitole replied that SAPS was drawing a distinction between a tool and the policy. There is no cybercrime strategy for DPCI. There should be one integrated cybercrime strategy and this strategy outlines the deliverables for DPCI, CI and Detective Services. The cybercrime policy referred to here is an overarching policy specification that defines the cybercrime strategy. The assurance that we can give to the Committee is that we are responding to cybercrime but our response is still limited by our technological expertise. We are now dealing with the technological requirements to deal with cybercrime as it is a damaging crime and has a serious impact on national security. The execution is at a preliminary phase but SAPS is getting there and there would be a collective response to cybercrime. The South African Banking Risk Information Centre (SABRIC) is working with SAPS in the fight against cybercrime.   

Maj Gen Rabie replied that SAPS was monitoring 12 indicators in the detective environment and this is looking at a number of factors. SAPS does take into consideration the inputs of the Committee. The monitoring of the conviction rate from a SAPS perspective is different from a NPA perspective. SAPS is responsible for investigating all reported crimes. There are about 1.4 million reported crimes that SAPS needs to take through an investigative process. A certain portion of crime ends up in the court system. There was a recommendation from the Committee way back that SAPS needs to sit down with NPA and reconcile our indicators and see if SAPS and NPA are monitoring the same thing. The current conviction rate is extremely high and this is the information that needed to be dispersed to the general public so that people can have confidence in SAPS. There is a conviction in 8 out of 10 cases and this is the information that the general public should know in order to regain trust in SAPS. However, there is a need to be cautious as the information published by SAPS could sometimes not correlate with the reality on the ground as people do not see this conviction rate when they come in contact with crime.

Maj Gen Rabie said that there are a range of indicators in Detective Services and these could be shared with the Committee. There is a need to ensure that people understand the information in the Annual Performance Plan (APP). It does not serve the purpose to have high conviction rate while confidence in SAPS is extremely low as the two do not correlate. It would be helpful for the Committee to assist SAPS on how to communicate the right message so that what is measured is total crime. We need to be careful on how we report crime as this might have other unintended consequences.      

General Sitole added that the focus of SAPS is currently on the outcomes on these performance indicators. SAPS is not exactly sure what to do about the general public as it was really confusing to have a high conviction rate but low confidence in the police. The level of reporting perhaps needed to be different from the reporting used to communicate to the Committee. Perhaps SAPS should hear from Members on their experience in interactions with the general public so as to adapt the communication to make it reachable.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that there was already a discussion with the Treasury on the funding for the two units. SANEB and NBIFCPVC are DPCI units and therefore they would be incorporated into the discussion with the Treasury. The two units were currently operating on a temporary structure and this was a major concern.

General Sitole said that there would be resources to address property crime. SAPS would be looking at the redirection of resources to where they are needed the most. The risk of increasing the performance indicators is that SAPS might not achieve these targets due to limited resources.

Lt Gen Magadlela replied that there is sometimes a challenge between target setting and resource allocation and there is sometimes no balance between the two. This often results in the reduction of targets in Detective Services. There is a strategy in place to retain the skilled workforce in Forensic by means of a scarce skills allowance.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if there is an established link between forensic evidence and the court cases.

Maj Gen Rabie replied that the targets for the forensic environment were expressed relative to working days. However, there were challenges as some officials were working on weekends and it was becoming increasingly difficult to measure this target for the submission of forensic evidence. There was a discussion with the Auditor-General (AG) and this target was converted to calendar days. The time that is given for the processing of evidence is still the same but expressed in calendar days instead of working days.

Lt Gen Magadlela added that there was no reduction of days for the processing of evidence by the forensic team but there was just conversion of working days to calendar days to accommodate those officials that were working on weekends. There are standards of performance to work together with courts. There is collaboration between NPA and Detective Services.

Mr Maake asked if the forensic team in the laboratories are made aware of the cases being investigated so that they can be patriotic in ensuring that the cases are resolved and criminals are put behind bars.

Lt Gen Magadlela replied that the procedure is laid out and there is what is called case management. The case management is where the case is referred for analysis to people in different stations with different expertise. For example, a firearm is not only for ballistic experts but there are also fingerprints and DNA that could be detected from the firearm and these would be detected by different experts. There is an expert from Forensic that would be responsible for testifying in court after all evidence has been collected.  There is that coordination between the forensic team and the prosecutors.

Mr Maake said his question was about whether the guys who are working in the forensic laboratory are briefed in detail about the cases they are dealing with.

Mr Mhlongo said that from his experience the people who are involved in the laboratories are looking only for objective evidence to link the suspect to the case and therefore they cannot ever be involved in the details of the case.

Lt Gen Magadlela replied that there is a clear specifications when cases come to the lab. The analysts needed to be university graduates to be able to work there and there is also internal training provided to new entrants and this is both theory and practical. One needs to have university qualification in microbiology or biochemistry to work in the DNA field.

General Sitole explained that the forensic team does get divorced from the cases they are dealing with until those cases are resolved.

Lt Gen Magadlela mentioned that the forensic team needs to be as independent as possible. Therefore, the forensic team needs to analyse only what is in front of them and this is to maintain a level of independence and for evidence to be credible and acceptable in court.

General Sitole added that SAPS would address any gaps between prosecution and forensics. He noted that the State Security Agency (SSA) has taken the first step to establishing a Cybercrime Centre and the Cybercrime Strategy would be linked to this centre.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that DPCI is supposed to be located in the Cybercrime Centre but we are not responsible for establishing the centre. DPCI is part of the SAPS value chain and therefore DPCI would submit names of people to be involved in the centre.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if there is a timeframe for the establishment of this centre. It was unclear as to when the Committee could start visiting this centre.

General Sitole replied that the establishment of this centre was already above 99% completed and therefore it was ready to be functional. It was already indicated that there would be a link between the National Cybercrime Centre and Cybercrime Strategy. SAPS, CI and DPCI would present a collective capacity. The determination of the capacity would be determined by the Strategy. There is a foreseeable need to grow the response to cybercrime because the criminal modus operandi is moving to cybercrime and therefore we need to be ahead of the criminals. The Committee would be informed when the Centre is fully deployed and functional. The centre was established by SSA.  

Mr Mhlongo believed that DPCI should be an overarching organ. The FBI in the USA is extremely powerful and they have so much control in the policing environment. It would be important to know if there was a possibility to see DPCI becoming an elite organisation that is on the minds of criminal syndicates. This is not to say that other divisions of policing must be divorced from cybercrime. What could be done to make DPCI an effective organisation that is capable of fighting crime?

General Sitole replied that according to legislation DPCI had all the powers it needed to be efficient and effective in dealing with organised crime. However, the challenge was resources. All that needed to be done was to provide DPCI with adequate resources. DPCI cannot fight cybercrime on its own as it needed the assistance of CI and Detective Services. He noted a project was introduced in Kruger National Park and it was able to stabilize rhino poaching in the area. The project is still in place but perhaps the Committee need to shift the project to KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) and any area that has not been covered. The focus of SAPS in response to rhino poaching would be informed by the shift in modus operandi by criminals.  

Lt Gen Mgwenya said that about 1 612 members had been trained in the cybercrime environment. A total of 72 of the 1 612 were trained in France on sexual related electronic crime. SAPS would be training 833 people in this current financial year.

Mr Mhlongo asked if this was credible training as this would motivate people to be engaged in this training and also retained in the organisation at the same time.

Lt Gen Mgwenya requested time to verify whether this training was credible and accredited.  

General Sitole replied that the Ms Karabo Mokoena case was now with NPA. SAPS would consider the suggestion to use post-graduate law graduates, as it was a very good suggestion and it was linked to the multidisciplinary fusion centre concept where we bring together different institutions such as non-governmental organisations (NGOs). He said that SAPS wanted to deal with the Auditor General reports  to ensure outstanding reports.

Mr Mbhele stated that most of the oversight bodies were complaining that the feedback they gave to SAPS was falling on deaf ears and not being taken into consideration. This was likely to have exacerbated the situation where SAPS investigators were not showing up for court or cases were chucked out of the system because of shoddy case dockets. Was this the situation in the past?

General Sitole replied that indeed there was a problem about listening to inputs from oversight bodies as this was not structured but this has been addressed now. The input made by Mr Mbhele was appreciated. There is a scheduled conference with the police veterans and this would be talking about the role the veterans could play. There are those who left policing while they still love it and we need to utilise the experience of these veterans.

Lt Gen Mgwenya replied that SAPS re-enlisted 310 detectives in 2016/17 and 122 in detectives in 2017/18. Therefore, the total number of detectives re-enlisted was 432 and SAPS was planning to re-enlist additional detectives in the 2018/19 financial year. A female SAPS member requested ill-health retirement because of an SMS she received saying: “I am going to kill everyone in the station”. The member suffered from post traumatic stress (PTS). The incident was investigated. Eventually, this member left as a result of ill-health retirement and it was untrue that the member was not looked after. She was now requesting re-enlistment.

General Sitole replied that there is a continual docket analysis and dockets need to be loaded into the system. The detectives do not do the station profile analysis and this was a problem as the detectives need to monitor the station's profile. There is a need for downward management of dockets so as to stabilise the case dockets to be dealt with.

Lt Gen Matakata explained the target of 18% for detection of corruption was confined to the Anti-Corruption Task Team (ACTT) and their investigation of corruption where procurement is involved. There were 30 case dockets over the past 5 years and the Committee was concerned that this number was extremely low. DPCI consulted ACTT to indicate that there should be a review of the target to 18 per year and 90 over the five year period of the Medium Term Strategic Framework (MTSF). It must be clarified that these are trial ready case dockets and it was not like DPCI was not investigating corruption in the country.

The Chairperson asked about investigation of state capture cases and the prioritisation of resources. It would be important to know if additional resources would be provided to DPCI to investigate state capture cases. One saw very good results lately where police officers were arrested in the Western Cape involved in the selling of case dockets. The selling of case dockets was a matter of concern. What was being done internally to ensure that this was dealt with as it contributes to corruption of law enforcement?        

Ms Molebatsi asked about progress about Mr Senzo Meyiwa who was killed in front of people. What was the progress with the investigation of the Glebelands killings in KZN?

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked about the number of arrests in relation to convictions.  The Committee should be provided with information on the National Client Survey about what people on the ground really wanted. A total of 8 million South Africans are victims of cybercrime and it was pleasing to hear about the focus on cybercrime. The Committee should be briefed on whether the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) was now acting with speed on the finalisation of cases that are coming through for prosecution. There was an identified problem with firearm registration where people are stealing firearms and then changing the registration to make it impossible for those firearms to be traced.

Mr Mbhele asked about the current status of the Criminal Record Centre in carrying out its function. There seemed to be a trend of decline in the capacity of the Criminal Record Centre. The Committee should also hear whether there is enough capacity and technological capability within the Criminal Record Centre. What was the progress on the digitization of records for the Criminal Record Centre? Why are we still using paperwork at the Criminal Record Centre while we can digitize information? It would be interesting to hear if SAPS was willing to diversify the outlets where people would be able to perform the same function that was performed by the Criminal Record Centre such as collecting fingerprints. There is a logistical factor in some police stations where detectives are based far and this is sometimes a logistical nightmare for the movement of case dockets from the stations to the detectives. There is an understanding that detectives do not necessarily have to be at police stations as they are always away chasing suspects or visiting the crime scenes. What could be done to improve this situation?

General Sitole promised that there would be undivided support provided to DPCI. DPCI is part of the business case to be taken to Treasury.

Lt Gen Mosikili replied that there was an anti-corruption capacity within Detective Services that was established and this is looking at corruption that was happening with case dockets. There is a monitoring of case dockets and this is to determine the missing dockets and to follow-up on those missing case dockets. There will be a one on one interaction with provinces and this would be starting next week. We believe that each province had its own dynamics and there are specific challenges in each province.

The Chairperson said that Corruption Watch said to the Committee that they received more than 1 000 complaints about police corruption. Would it possible for SAPS to follow-up with Corruption Watch on these reported cases?

General Sitole promised to follow-up with Corruption Watch on the complaints about police corruption. Indeed, there have been many promises in the Mr Meyiwa case. The National Commissioner confirmed he was personally involved in getting information on the Mr Meyiwa case that day. The case is on top of the priority agenda of the cold case strategy. The investigation team has been reviewed.

Lt Gen Mosikili explained that there is a task team working on the Glebelands killings and there is a person at the level of brigadier who provides information on a monthly basis. There have been arrests made including a police officer. There are new cases that are coming in. There is a satellite police station that is in Glebelands and this is to address these killings.

General Sitole replied that SAPS was trying to sustain relationships with other countries to address cybercrime. It must be said that there is an internal cybercrime unit within SABRIC and they are also equally prepared to work with SAPS. SAPS would not exclude any partners in the country that are willing to work with SAPS on cybercrime.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that the NPA was still taking its own time in the finalisation of cases as they still need to apply their minds on cases. The cases are still taking long time.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked for a definite explanation of “long time” in these cases.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that there are cases that have been sitting within NPA for more than a year waiting for a decision to be taken. This was not only affecting the DPCI but also the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID).

Mr Mhlongo asked about the process to be followed for extradition to be initiated.

Lt Gen Matakata replied that this was in the hands of the NPA. There are ongoing investigations that might implicate the very same people that are being investigated. The process that is being followed is to conclude all the cases and then initiate the extradition of the individuals that are implicated on state capture.

General Sitole replied that SAPS would elevate the problem within NPA to the Criminal Justice Cluster. 

Programme 5: Protection and Security Services
Maj Gen Rabie said Programme 5 provides a protection and security service to dignitaries and government interests. The VIP Protection Services provides for the protection of the President, Deputy President, former presidents, their spouses, and other identified dignitaries while in transit. Static and Mobile Security provides for the protection of other local and foreign dignitaries and the places where they are present. Compensation is a prominent element for all protection/security functions with significant over time costs. Travel and subsistence cost are also prominent. The target for protection, of identified government installations and of dignitaries, without security breaches, is 100%. SAPS had 100% target for the evaluation of National Key Points and a target of 51.36% for auditing of strategic installations. 

Discussion
Ms Kohler-Barnard asked about ways to mitigate against incidents incorrectly referred to as security breaches while this is not the case. It was unclear if speeding by Protection and Security Services was considered an offence or security breach? Was any relationship being made between the Programme 5 budget allocation and the Critical Infrastructure Protection Bill? Was technology being used in Protection and Security Services? She asked about the spike in the Programme 5 budget.  The Committee should be briefed on how the protection of VIP residences by the Security Service was different to that provided at presidential residences. There are reported cases of abuse of security personnel in the Protection Service where some of them are being made to carry handbags. Are you coming across these cases?

Ms Mmola also asked if the budget allocated for Programme 5 was linked to the National Key Points Act. Was there any engagement on the system that was needed for when the Critical Infrastructure Protection Bill came into effect?

Ms Molebatsi asked for progress about the KZN provincial commissioner who had been on suspension for too long now.

Mr Mbhele asked if the transfer of Programme 5 from Visible Policing in SAPS to Secret Service would go together with the allocated budget as the transfer of function while leaving the budget behind could be risky.

Mr Mhlongo asked about progress on the report that came out yesterday on the plot to assassinate the EFF leader, Mr Julius Malema. Was any security assessment being done on this potential threat? The reports on the plot to assassinate Mr Malema were coming from right-wing organisations. It must be made clear that the plot to assassinate Mr Malema would not solve the land problem in the country but would only make things worse. The killing of Mr Chris Hani almost brought the country to a civil war if it was not for the intervention of Mr Nelson Mandela. The right-wing organisations should be warned that the plot to assassinate Mr Malema could bring the country to the brink of civil war.

General Sitole replied that there is no intention to shift the division from the Police to Secret Service as the division and its budget will be kept in SAPS. The intention is to translate the division into a protection and security dispensation. It is currently under Visible Policing and it was not a visible policing component but a secret service component. If we escalate this component into a directorate it means it would still remain within Police but it will not be governed by policing policies but it will be governed by Secret Service policies and it will be upgraded to international standards of secret service. The police would protect Mr Malema and therefore this would allay the fears of everyone. A formal threat assessment has already commenced on the reported assassination plot.

General Sitole replied that Members of Protection and Security Services are not allowed to speed unless the speeding is attached to the function to be undertaken. Unnecessary speeding was violating traffic regulations and disciplinary action would be taken against these officials. There are instances where members of Protection and Security Services were forced by VIP members to engage in speeding and this needed to be addressed.  

Lt Gen Samson Sitlabane, Divisional Commissioner: Protection and Security Services, replied that there has been a decline in the number of reported cases where members of Protection and Security Services are engaged in speeding and there was not any reported case in 2017/18. There were no shooting incidents involving VIP members in 2017/18. The quality of security put in place always differs between president and ministers and a president is entitled to a higher grade of security as the potential for attack is not the same. The reason SAPS wants to move Protection and Security Services to a secret service dispensation is the grading of protectors. It is impossible in the current system of SAPS to grade the protectors as the grading would be giving them ranks. It would be impossible to expect a constable to prevent a terrorist coming to the house of the President because the experience is not at that particular level. The threat level is also taken into consideration as it will always be different between minsters and president. SAPS decided to get closer to members in Protection and Security Services so that they are able to tell SAPS about their experiences and this helps in addressing some of the challenges. SAPS also got closer to even the dignitaries and this is an attempt to get to the bottom of the challenges.

Lt Gen Sitlabane said that there are no reported cases of abuse of members by the dignitaries. There are processes to be followed when a particular member has been mistreated by a VIP member. The complaint is forwarded in writing and the relevant VIP member would be consulted so as to hear both sides of the story before taking a decision.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if the abuse of security members was happening but being addressed.

Lt Gen Sitlabane replied that there were no reported cases currently but these cases were dealt with whenever reported. Protection is provided to the official residences of the president, deputy and former presidents and deputies and all of them are declared as National Key Points (NKPs).

General Sitole spoke about the evaluation form review, saying there is a continual assessment of the evaluation form which is informed by what is referred to as protection and security modus operandi development and advancement. The protection and security modus operandi gets directed to the NKP. There are two NKPs that can switch-off the whole country and there is another NKP that can burn half of South Africa into ashes within 45 minutes. The process of moving away from the National Key Points Act to the Critical Infrastructure Protection Bill also looks into the evaluation form until the process is being completed. The evaluation form and the questionnaire are the same.

General Sitole replied that there was an investigation and inquiry into the case of the KZN provincial commissioner. The former provincial commissioner took SAPS to court and SAPS won the case. SAPS was now proceeding with the tribunal. SAPS had heard that the former provincial commissioner was intending to take it to the Constitutional Court.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if her legal fees were being paid for by SAPS.    

Lt Gen Phalaphala Ramikosi, SAPS Divisional Commissioner: Finance, replied that SAPS would need to verify but the indication was that SAPS was not paying for the legal fees of the former KZN provincial commissioner.

On the spike in expenditure for Protection and Security Services, Lt Gen Phalaphala Ramikosi said this was caused by the increase in the threat. The Department of International Relations and Cooperation (DIRCO) had a lot of events that involved many heads of state and this required security protection. There has also been an increase in number of dignitaries including the number of former presidents. SAPS was doing a deeper analysis on this spike in expenditure for Protection and Security Services.

General Sitole added that the DIRCO events are affecting the SAPS budget and this was an unfunded mandate and was not budgeted for. It is a concern that SAPS was not able to recuperate the money for the provision of protection and security services for DIRCO events.
 
The meeting was adjourned.