ICASA Council: interviews

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Communications and Digital Technologies

12 October 2017
Chairperson: Mr H Maxegwana (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Committee conducted interviews of candidates for the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) Council.

The Committee had shortlisted 15 candidates on 25 August 2017. Prof Sheila Onkaetse Mmusi and Mr Themba Phiri had withdrawn from the interview process resulting in only 13 candidates being interviewed on 10 October 2017. The interviewed candidates were; Ms Thembeka Semane, Mr Andrew Pheto, Ms Natalie-Ann Delport, Dr Mashilo Boloka, Ms Nomonde Gongxeka-Seopa, Mr Rubben Mohlaloga, Adv Cawekazi Mahlati, Mr Thabo Makhakhe, Mr Peter Hlapolosa, Ms Lulama Mokhobo, Mr Ashraf Patel, Ms Kate Skinner, and Mr Phosa Mashangoane.

Committee members tested candidates on issues relating to governance, regulation, legislation, ethics, broadcast licensing, spectrum, digital migration, challenges of the job as a councillor, and the issue of ICASA reporting to both the Department of Communications (DoC) and the Department of Telecommunications and Postal Services (DTPS).

Many of the candidates were previous ICASA councillors or employed as senior managers and the Committee asked why such candidates wanted to return to the regulator and what they could do differently that they had not done previously.

The Committee thanked all the candidates that availed themselves for interviews and notified them that the Committee would deliberate on the interviews and recommend the successful candidates to the National Assembly for adoption.

Meeting report

Opening remarks

The Chairperson said that two candidates withdrew from the interviews; Prof Sheila Mmusi, and Mr Themba Phiri.

The Chairperson said that only three of the 13 remaining candidates had pending status on the verification of their qualifications. The other 10 candidates were clear as far as qualification checks. The Committee would give time until next week for the verification of three candidate’s qualifications.

For the sake of candidates, the Committee had resolved not to circulate the State Security Agency (SSA) report since it spoke to particulars of candidates. Of the 13 candidates, no information of national security relevance was obtained on the candidates. According to the Crime Investigative Unit (CIU), Adv Cawekazi Mahlati and Mr Ashraaf Patel had criminal records and their finger prints needed to be verified. All candidates had been confirmed to be South African citizens. Mr Phosa Mashangoane, Ms Lulama Mokhobo, and Ms Thembeka Semane had negative credit checks. It was to be noted that the inability of a person to manage his or her finances could pose a security risk.

The Chairperson asked members if the Committee could proceed with the interviews.

Mr M Kalako (ANC) moved to proceed with the process.

Candidate one: Ms Thembeka Semane

The Chairperson asked Ms Semane why she was interested in becoming an ICASA councillor and if she had any issues to declare before the Committee.

Mr M Kalako (ANC) said that Ms Semane was currently serving on five other boards, and if it happened that she was one of the successful candidates, how would she cope with serving on the ICASA council as well.

Mr Kalako asked Ms Semane to demonstrate her understanding of the role of ICASA councillors and how their role was different from other accounting officers in various Boards.

Mr Kalako said that it was often contested where the final authority resided, and asked what Ms Semane’s take was on the independence of ICASA.

Ms M Shinn (DA) asked if Ms Semane had any other employment apart from her Board work.

Ms Shinn asked what the name of Ms Semane’s company was, and what she did.

Ms Shinn asked how Ms Semane understood the high costs of data, what should be done to lower the costs, and what ICASA’s role should be.

Ms Shinn asked if it was essential for a regulators independence to be protected from political and economic interference.

Mr W Madisha (COPE) asked if ICASA had a role to play in ensuring that the SABC would not be abused by narrow political ends.

Mr Madisha said that ICASA was responsible for regulating the telecommunications industry in the public interest and ensuring affordable services for everyone, and if public services were not affordable, how could ICASA ensure that it achieved its mandate?

Mr R Tseli (ANC) asked what Ms Semane understood to be the role of ICASA with regards to digital migration.

Mr Tseli asked Ms Semane to share how the Broadcasting Act set out the role of ICASA in regulating.

Mr Tseli said that politicians were often accused of interfering with the work of councillors during their role of oversight and asked what Ms Semane’s view was.

The Chairperson asked if Ms Semane had any questions for the Committee.

Ms Semane asked the Committee how it planned to take the country forward in the fourth industrial revolution to ensure that the country did not lag behind.

Mr M Gungubele (ANC) said the approach of leadership was to ensure that skilled people were appointed

Ms Semane said that South Africa was lagging behind on skills and asked the Committee what the future plans were to ensure that the country was better positioned to compete globally were.

Ms Shinn said that the problem was basic education and ensuring access to information in the digital economy through NGOs, administration, and smart centers to get people familiar with operating technological devices.
Refer to audio for responses

Candidate two: Mr Andrew Pheto

The Chairperson asked Mr Pheto to introduce himself and declare any issues or conflicts of interest.

Ms Shinn said that Mr Pheto was currently employed in two other companies and asked if he would be happy to resign from those positions if appointed on the ICASA Council, and also what skills he would bring to ICASA that would be relevant in its area of operation.

Mr Madisha said that the issue of honesty, integrity and credibility always came first for whoever was appointed. Mr Pheto had mentioned that he was a CEO, and an advisor. Mr Madisha noted that Mr Pheto was at the helm of some of the people who were accused of corruption. He asked if Mr Pheto had a hand in the corruption.

Mr Madisha said that he wished to put it that Mr Pheto was called by Judge Maluleka and had to explain himself. If the corruption cases had happened during his tenure as CEO then that would be a problem for the Committee and therefore he asked Mr Pheto to prove that he was not involved.

Dr M Ndlozi (EFF) asked if Mr Pheto was an advisor to Kgosi Pilane.

Dr Ndlozi said that some of the people in the community had placed the blame on the Kgosi Pilane’s advisors, and this was Mr Pheto’s opportunity to say his side of the story, otherwise it would haunt him during the Committee’s deliberation.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Pheto was given administrative powers to act on Kgosi Pilane’s behalf.

Dr Ndlozi said that Mr Pheto’s CV had nothing indicating that he had particular experience in the ICT sector, and could not understand why Mr Pheto wanted to serve on the ICASA Council and if it could be said that Mr Pheto was taking a chance because it seemed like he was a sophomore in the sector.

Dr Ndlozi said that just because Mr Pheto participated as an advisor in the application of a license for SiyayaTV he now had experience and that the Committee should appoint him to the ICASA Council.

Dr Ndlozi asked what skill Mr Pheto would be bringing to the Council

Dr Ndlozi asked if the SRC was a governance structure in schools and if that qualified him to be part of the governance that ICASA was concerned with.

Mr Gungubele asked Mr Pheto to articulate how ICASA executed its mandate, and he preferred an articulation of the outside process ICASA was involved in and why it was necessary in the electronics communication mode.

Mr Gungubele asked which of the government strategic outcomes was closely linked to the work ICASA did.

Mr Gungubele asked if Mr Pheto knew of any challenges in the work ICASA does and what his contribution would be in dealing with those challenges.

Mr Gungubele asked how ICASA would deal with #datamustfall.

Mr Gungubele asked why it was possible to reduce data costs.

Mr Gungubele asked if Mr Pheto had a recent memory of a time when ICASA experienced challenges or weaknesses.

Mr Tseli said that Mr Pheto needed to convince South Africans that his role in SiyayaTV did not present a conflict of interest if he was to be appointed as a councillor.

Mr Tseli asked how relevant the Broadcasting Act of 1994 was in relation to ICASA.

Mr Tseli said that politicians were often found to be interfering with the work of ICASA Councillors and asked how Mr Pheto would be dealing with that issue if appointed as a Councillor.

Mr Tseli asked Mr Pheto to take the Committee through the process of appointing ICASA Councillors.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate three: Ms Natalie-Ann Delport

The Chairperson asked Ms Delport to briefly introduce herself and declare any issues if she had any.

Ms Shinn said that Ms Delport had an extensive CV and noticed that her average appointment was two years before leaving for another position. Ms Shinn said that Ms Delport seemed to have found her niche in TV and asked what skills she could offer as a regulator.  Ms Shinn asked why Ms Delport wanted to become an ICASA Councillor.

Ms Shinn said that if Ms Delport became an ICASA Councillor, it would be a five year term, and asked if she had the staying power.

Mr Madisha said that ICASA was responsible for regulating the telecommunications, broadcasting and postal industry in the public interest and ensuring affordable service of a high quality for all opinions. Mr Madisha asked what the term “public interest” meant and how ICASA could ensure that this was achieved and maintained.

Mr Madisha asked if there was sufficient competition in the industry and if not how would that competition be created for the benefit of South Africans.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Ms Delport’s view was on the concept of white monopoly capital and its impact in the paid broadcast space.

Dr Ndlozi asked what immediate things need to be done to transform the paid television space.

Dr Ndlozi asked what ICASA could do from a regulatory point of view to break the back of white monopoly capital.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Ms Delport knew Mr Koos Bekker, and what she thought of his impact in the paid television space.

Dr Ndlozi asked what could be done to transform leadership in Mr Koos Bekker’s companies.

Dr Ndlozi asked which what the best spectrum allocation services in South Africa were.

Dr Ndlozi said that part of ICASA’s mandate was allocating time slots during elections on SABC TV and radio, and asked what Ms Delport’s view was on the issue that some parties received more coverage depending on their size or representation.

Mr Tseli said that ICASA Councillors were full time and there would be instances where employees would refer some of the issues to the Councillors and asked how she would be dealing with those instances.

Mr Tseli asked if ICASA Councillors were accountable to the Minister or to Parliament.

Mr Tseli asked if Parliament had any role in the work of Councillors.

Mr Tseli asked what the role of ICASA was in the digital migration space.

Mr Tseli asked if Ms Delport detected any faults in the ICASA Act on the work ICASA was mandated to do.

Mr Tseli asked if ICASA had enough teeth to bite from a compliance point of view.

Mr Kalako asked if Ms Delport was aware of any controversies around spectrums at the moment, in terms of the conflict between DTPS and DoC.

Mr Kalako asked which would be the best way of issuing spectrum licenses,

Mr Kalako asked if the issuing of spectrum licenses should be based on who pays the most.

Mr Kalako asked what “ex-ante” and “ex-post” regulation is and what the differences are.

Mr Kalako asked if Ms Delport was aware of any policy developments around rolling our broadband and trying to effect convergence, taking into considerations the current developments.

Mr Kalako asked under which department ICASA should fall: DTPS or DoC.

Dr Ndlozi said that he did not think Ms Delport was very forthright, and asked if Sabido investments owned eTV.

Dr Ndlozi said that Ms Delport worked for the Sabido Academy.

Dr Ndlozi said that someone would say that Ms Delport would be representing eTV interests in ICASA and that’s why she left them a year ago. Dr Ndlozi asked what her response would be to the accusation.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Ms Delport agreed that it would be a conflict of interests if she was appointed to ICASA.

The Chairperson asked if Ms Delport was saying that her son would resign from eTV if she was appointed as a Councillor.

Ms Shinn said that in the CV Ms Delport was listed as being employed by two companies and she had earlier indicated that she resigned from eTV and did not mention anything about Sabido. Ms Shinn said this raised huge concerns because candidates were invited to submit nominations in June 2017 but Ms Delport’s submitted CV was an outdated version from a year ago and this was sloppy on her part.

Ms Shinn asked if Ms Delport was currently unemployed.

Dr Ndlozi asked what the name of Ms Delport’s company was.

The Chairperson asked which SETA Ms Delport was a board member of.

The Chairperson asked if it was the same SETA that the CEO was alleged to be involved in corruption.

The Chairperson asked if Ms Delport as a board member knew if there was any corruption.

The Chairperson asked if the board knew nothing about the alleged corruption until media houses ran with the story.

The Chairperson asked if there was any whistle-blower in her understanding.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate four: Dr Mashilo Boloka

The Chairperson asked Dr Boloka to briefly introduce himself and declare any issues if there were any.

Ms Shinn referred to Dr Boloka’s CV and noted that in 2014-16 he was a Director for Broadcasting and Telecommunications. Ms Shinn asked why Dr Boloka did not move with the Department of Communications after the split from Telecommunications.

Ms Shinn asked what was wrong with ICASA with regard to how it was run, managed, and what would be done to fix it, and also why Dr Boloka would be the correct person to have on the Council.

Ms Shinn said that there had been many inquiries into the governance of ICASA. ICASA seemed to have lacked a viable funding model, poor performance of staff and political interference. Ms Shinn asked what the reason was that ICASA was allowed to languish despite being very credible inquiries into what could be the problem, and if ICASA should stay as a Chapter nine institution.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Dr Bolosha worked as a Chief Director under former Minister Faith Muthambi.

Dr Ndlozi asked if it was true that Dr Bolosha was part of the governance which had failed to regulate the sector.

Dr Ndlozi said that DSTV remained the biggest in the paid TV sector, and why was there a failure to shift white ownership in the sector.

Dr Ndlozi said that his concern was that Dr Boloka had been in the department and therefore part of the governance that had failed to regulate the sector, and if appointed to ICASA he would bring that same failure to the regulator.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Dr Boloka was a deployee of the ANC.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Dr Boloka agreed that there had been a failure in the implementation of lower data costs and also in the failure to implement DTT.

Mr Madisha said that the unemployment rate in South Africa was over 40%. Mr Madisha asked what Dr Boloka would do to ensure that broadcasting and postal services contributed to the development of South Africa both social and economically if he was appointed, and what role ICASA played in ensuring that for the poor people of the country.

Mr Madisha said that when it came to consideration of appointment for any position in public office, personal integrity needed to be the number one characteristic. At the moment, Dr Boloka held a very senior position at the DTPS and this conflicted with the position of Councillor that he was interviewing for.

Mr Tseli said that ICASA reported to DoC but part of its mandate fell under DTPS. He asked if this created challenges of accountability for ICASA Councillors.

Mr Tseli said that if appointed a Councillor, how Dr Boloka would deal with the challenge regarding the MOU.

Mr Tseli asked if ICASA had enough teeth to bite from a compliance point of view.

Mr Tseli said that employees would often pass issues to Councillors since they were full time employeed, and asked how Dr Boloka would deal with that if he was appointed.

Mr Tseli asked if Dr Boloka could advise the Minister of Communications on DTT to ensure that the deadline was not missed again.

The Chairperson asked if ICASA belonged to institutions supporting democracy or not and to elaborate on the answer given.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate five: Ms Nomonde Gongxeka-Seopa

The Chairperson asked Ms Gongxeka-Seopa to introduce herself and declare any issues if there were any.

Mr Madisha said that Ms Gongxeka-Seopa spoke about her experience at Multichoice.

Mr Madisha said that ICASA was responsible for regulating telecommunications and postal services industry interests in the public interest. He asked if telecommunications services in South Africa were affordable or not and what she would do to tackle that issue if appointed as a Councillor.

Mr Madisha asked what the term “in the public interests” meant.

Mr Tseli asked what the understating of the role of the President in relation to the role of the Minister in the appointment of ICASA Councillors was.

Mr Tseli asked if there were some gaps in the ICASA Act that needed to be looked at by Parliament to ensure that Councillors were doing the work they were supposed to.

Mr Tseli asked how Ms Gongxeka-Seopa would advise the Minister to prevent the Department of Communications from missing the deadline for digital migration.

Mr Tseli asked if ICASA had enough teeth to bite from a compliance point of view.

Ms Shinn asked what relevance a broadcaster had, how it should be defined, and if there needed to be amendments.

Ms Shinn asked why Ms Gongxeka-Seopa thought ICASA was under resourced.

Ms Shinn asked what ICASA should do to encourage diversity in broadcasting.

Ms Shinn asked what kind of consulting services Ms Gongxeka-Seopa was offering and who her clients were.

Ms Shinn asked how Ms Gongxeka-Seopa would treat any issues related to the SABC and Multichoice since she had previously worked for both institutions.

Dr Ndlozi said that he was a fan of Ms Gongxeka-Seopa’s work at ‘Yizo Yizo’ and there had not been any drama like that.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Ms Gongxeka-Seopa was at the SABC from 2008-2014 as Public Affairs Manager.

Dr Ndlozi asked who appointed her and who she was reporting to.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Ms Gongxeka-Seopa’s involvement was in defending the public affairs of Mr Hlaudi Motsoeneng.

Dr Ndlozi said that he was probing her capacity to stand for what was right irrespective if she would lose her job.

Dr Ndlozi said that there was a lot of injustice during the tenure of Mr Hlaudi Motsoeneng and asked if she had any frustrations.

Dr Ndlozi said that there was a lot of manipulation of the news and giving direct instructions to journalists in the SABC.

Dr Ndlozi said Ms Gongxeka-Seopa was head of Africa Stakeholder Management at Multichoice and asked if she was reinforcing capital monopoly.

Dr Ndlozi said that since Ms Gongxeka-Seopa viewed Mr Koos Bekker as a visionary and role model it would be difficult for the Committee to appoint her to a position in ICASA if she supported white capitalists and admired Mr Bekker.

Dr Ndlozi asked if there were black owners or shareholders in Multichoice.

Dr Ndlozi asked what would be the first steps Ms Gongxeka-Seopa would do to regulate Multichoice and breakdown their monopoly of the paid broadcasting industry.

Dr Ndlozi said that ICASA allocated election time slots in the SABC, and asked what her view was of changing or leaving the allocations of time slots for political parties, and how she would change them.

Mr Gungubele asked what Ms Gongxeka-Seopa’s view was on the role of ICASA on its regulatory role with regard to ensuring ICT was a platform to increased governance services; her views on ICASA’s role with regard to ensuring public broadcasting content was on all platforms; and her view on ICASA’s role with regard to editorial policy impact in as far as news broadcasting during her time as Public Affairs Manager at the SABC from 2008-2014, and what was her evaluation of ICASA’s performance in all the areas mentioned above.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate six: Mr Rubbem Mohlaloga

The Chairperson asked Mr Mohlaloga to introduce himself and give a brief overview of his experience and qualifications, and also to declare any conflicts.

Ms Shinn asked what Mr Mohlaloga found in ICASA from the time he was appointed and if the entity had improved or deteriorated.

Ms Shinn asked if ICASA was independent enough from legally political and commercial interference in its decision making.

Ms Shinn asked what Mr Mohlaloga’s view of public broadcasting was, and if it should be vested in an entity like the SABC or should it become a licensing condition across all broadcasters in the converged age.

Ms Shinn asked why Broadcasting should be restricted only to the responsibility of people seen as traditional broadcasters.

Ms Shinn asked how Mr Mohlaloga’s past experience in ICASA, particularly as acting Chairperson in the last year had prepared him should he be reappointed.

Mr Madisha said that there was problem in December 2012 where Mr Mohlaloga was accused and charged of taking R6 million from the Land Bank and this reflected badly on his honesty and credibility and would create problems from the public if he was appointed.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Mr Mohlaloga had done as a Councillor that should make the Committee think about reappointing him.

Dr Ndlozi asked what was novel about Mr Mohlaloga.

Dr Ndlozi said that the big issue was white monopoly capital in the communications sector, and asked what Mr Mohlaloga had done about that issue, as well as #datamustfall.

Dr Ndlozi asked why he must call Mr Malusi Gigaba since he was listed as a reference in the CV.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Mohlaloga knew the Guptas.

Dr Ndlozi asked Mr Mohlaloga if it did not seem as an approval of the ANC NEC that the name and number of a standing Minister of Finance was listed in his CV as a reference.

Dr Ndlozi asked what the intention of mentioning Mr Gigaba as a reference was.

Dr Ndlozi said that ICASA had a duty of allocating time slot during elections and the EFF had complained that they were not given enough coverage during Local Government Elections. Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Mohlaloga agreed with criteria that was used in allocating timeslots.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Mohlaloga was a deployee of the ANC.

Ms M Matshoba (ANC) asked what Mr Mohlaloga’s view was on the cost of data in South Africa.

Ms Matshoba asked what the functions of ICASA were exactly.

Ms Matshoba said that ICASA proposed new mobile data regulations which if approved would see a wider period for data bundles. She asked how many days there were before data bundles expired.

Ms Matshoba asked if ICAS should regulate the price of mobile devices.

Ms Matshoba asked what the advantages and disadvantages were during Mr Mohlaloga’s tenure at ICASA.

Mr Kalako said that there was a National Integrated White Paper, and asked what the implications of the White Paper were, and what his understanding of its objectives were.

Mr Kalako asked Mr Mohlaloga for his brief understanding of regulatory spectrum.

Mr Kalako asked what would be the best spectrum allocation.

Mr Kalako asked what the distinction was between auction and beauty contest and what the advantages and disadvantage were.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate: Adv Cawekazi Mahlati

The Chairperson asked Adv Mahlati to introduce herself give a brief overview of her experience and qualifications, as well as declare any issues as well as conflicts of interest.

Ms Shinn asked which years Adv Mahlati served on the SABC board and how long she was there for.

Ms Shinn asked which Committees Adv Mahlati served on why she only served two years at the SABC.

Ms Shinn said that Adv was accused of trying to influence a tender and that caused friction between herself and the Board Chairperson. Ms Shinn asked if there was any grounds in that accusation since it led to Adv Mahlati resigning.

Ms Shinn asked what skills and insights into how ICASA runs made Adv Mahlati believe she would be a good Councillor, and if she had the personality to get shot of most of her entanglements to do a technical job.

Ms Shinn asked what year Adv Mahlati was admitted into the North Gauteng High Court as an Advocate.

Mr Madisha said that if Adv Mahlati were to occupy the position of Councillor, honesty could not play the second fiddle. He referred to the SABC board led by Dr Ben Ngubane that she had served under and he said that Adv Mahlati campaigned for the removal of the Acting COO because he was blocking the processes for a tender she wanted to have valued at R500 million. Dr Ngubane also said that the SABC board had degenerated into serious dysfunctionality, and that Adv Mahlati was responsible for the dysfunctionality. That indicated that she was a highly disruptive force in SABC board meetings from time to time. The Committee wrote to President Zuma and had to decide what to do about Adv Mahlati and announced a unanimous vote of no confidence was made on Adv Mahlati. This indicated that if she could not be trusted then, would she be trusted in ICASA.

Mr Madisha said that the antithesis to what Adv Mahlati was raising was that the board minutes were adopted indicated the R500 million outside the whole issue, and Adv Mahlati was talking about the ‘Atos’ deal, which indicated that she had an interest. Mr Madisha was saying that since the Committee was discussing ICASA and making sure that things run properly, they needed Councillors to oversee that ICASA was doing what it was mandated to.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Adv Mahlati was part of ‘Bob broadcasting’.

Dr Ndlozi asked Adv Mahlati to share some of her experience at Bob broadcasting.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Adv Mahlati knew the nature of DSTV’s ownership in relation to race.

Dr Ndlozi asked what accounted for ICASA to failure to break the ownership in DSTV.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Adv Mahlati’s approach would be to breaking the monopoly in relation to the regulation terms of ICASA, and how does one break Naspers in the paid broadcasting space.

Dr Ndlozi asked what the immediate things ICASA could do reduce the cost of data.

Dr Ndlozi said that although Adv Mahlati had an attitude to stand up for what she believed, she did not often bring people along with her and this would lead to isolation.

Dr Ndlozi said that Adv Mahlati created the impression that she had a drinking problem and he asked if she had a drinking problem.

Ms Matshoba said that she was not impressed with the CV that was submitted because it did not reflect what the Committee was looking for.

Ms Matshoba asked why Adv Mahlati had an interest in becoming an ICASA councillor.

Ms Matshoba asked if Adv Mahlati could mention any of the regulations of ICASA.

Ms Matshoba asked what should be a funding model for ICT infrastructure in South Africa as a developing country.

Ms Matshoba asked what should be a special strategy to service underserviced or poor communities.

Ms Matshoba asked what Adv Mahlati’s view was of the cost of data in South Africa.

Ms Matshoba asked what the mission of ICASA was.

Ms Matshoba said that ICASA proposed a new mobile data regulation which if approved would see mobile networks offer a wider period for the validity of data. She asked how many days the period would be.

Mr Kalako said that he wanted to clear up the question posed earlier that Adv Mahlati was painted as a disruptive element in a board, and wanted her to convince him that she was able to work with a collective.

Mr Kalako asked Adv Mahlati what her opinion is of the ICT White Paper.

Ms Shinn interjected on a point of order that the ICT White Paper had no bearing on the interview of candidates, and the Committee was lagging behind having an open discussion on the White Paper.

Mr Kalako asked if Adv Mahlati agreed with the opinion that if the White Paper was implemented it would be turning ICASA into another regulator.

Mr Kalako asked Adv Mahlati what her understanding was of the complications of ICASA since the Department of Communications was split from Telecommunications and Postal Services in 2014.

The Chairperson said that in Adv Mahlati’s biography to her CV she had mentioned that she had served under various Ministers in the Mandela administration and asked if those positions were full time.

The Chairperson said that ICASA Councillors were employed full time and if she was appointed as a Councillor there would be more than 300 employees working under her. If she had never worked with a huge workforce there would be issues of her working with the Council and staff.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate eight: Mr Thabo Makhakhe

The Chairperson asked Mr Makhakhe to give an overview of his experience and qualifications as well as any issues to declare since Parliament had done a background check through the State Security Agency (SSA).

Ms Shinn said that Mr Makhakhe spent a lifetime in the sector and surely knew what went wrong. Ms Shinn asked if Mr Makhakhe was part of that process or if he knew what the report said, and if the recommendations should be implemented if he was appointed as a Councillor.

Ms Shinn asked what Mr Makhakhe would do differently that had not been done to introduce more market competition into the broadcasting and telecommunications space.

Ms Shinn asked who Mr Makhakhe’s current clients were and what work he did for them.

Mr Madisha said that he had no doubt Mr Makhakhe knew what ICASA was.

Mr Madisha was interested in the future and what Mr Makhakhe believed he could do to ensure ICASA succeeded.

Mr Madisha asked if Mr Makhakhe would be able to take ICASA forward and maintain honesty and integrity if he was appointed as a Councillor.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Makhakhe would disagree that there had been very little transformation in the broadcasting sector.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Mr Makhakhe would do differently since he was part of the sector.

Dr Ndlozi asked how long Mr Makhakhe was an ICASA Councillor and how long he had been working in the broadcast space.

Dr Ndlozi asked what it was concretely that Mr Makhakhe would do differently this time around if appointed.

Dr Ndlozi asked why Mr Makhakhe would push firmness when it came to shareholding for the historically disadvantaged groups now and why he had not done when he was in the Council.

Dr Ndlozi asked why Mr Makhakhe wanted to go back to the ICASA and what new thing would he be doing that was not done before.

Mr Kalako asked if Mr Makhakhe was aware of the ICT White Paper that was in discussion.

Mr Kalako asked what Mr Makhakhe’s opinion was on the independence of ICASA, and the relation of both ICASA and SABC both to DoC and DTPS, and if there was conflict with the SABC having to comply with regulations set by ICASA.

Mr Kalako asked how the spectrums should be dispensed.

Mr Madisha said that Mr Makhakhe indicated various institutions in his CV and wanted to check if these were for learning or if he worked there.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate nine: Mr Peter Hlapolosa

The Chairperson asked Mr Hlapolosa to give an overview of his background, experience, and qualifications as well as declare any conflicts.

Ms Shinn asked what was wrong with the relationship between ICASA Councillors and staff on holding back what ICASA could have done. There was tension between Councillors and staff, and it was well known that ICASA failed on its mandate basically. Ms Shinn asked what Mr Hlapolosa would do differently from his knowledge of the tension between Councillors and staff if he was appointed.

Ms Shinn asked what Mr Hlapolosa would do to make Vodacom more open and competitive.

Ms Shinn asked who Mr Hlapolosa’s clients were and if he would be happy to give them up if appointed as a Councillor.

Ms Shinn asked if Mr Hlapolosa would recommend or advise the separation of network operators into wholesale and retail, and if that would be a way to make space for more licensees.

Mr Madisha said that he was happy Mr Hlapolosa was a person who had worked in the structures of ICASA. Mr Madisha asked if Mr Hlapolosa would be able to do anything differently if appointed seeing as he had previously served as a Councillor and failed to regulate the SABC resulting in its current status in the economy.

Mr Madisha asked Mr Hlapolosa how he would ensure that telecommunications services were affordable to the people of South Africa and also competitive internationally.

Mr Madisha asked if it was necessary to have all the entities under the Communications portfolio or if they should just have one entity as it was happening in other countries.

Dr Ndlozi said that Mr Thabo Makhakhe was one of the references listed in Mr Hlapolosa’s CV and asked if they spoke about the interview process and notified Mr Makhakhe that he was listed as a reference since they knew one another.

Dr Ndlozi asked if it would be seen as a problem with them being friends if they were to be appointed.

Dr Ndlozi asked if the Committee should appoint friends who were competent to the same body.

Dr Ndlozi said that Mr Hlapolosa was a CEO of ICASA when everything had failed, and the industry remained untransformed.

Dr Ndlozi said that his problem was that the Committee was besieged by people who had been part of ICASA and wanted to go back.

Dr Ndlozi asked if there was a different way of bringing data costs down without enforcing competition.

Mr Kalako asked what made Mr Hlapolosa convinced that he would do what he could not achieve last time around at ICASA.

Mr Kalako asked what the obstacles were that prevented Mr Hlapolosa to implement measures in ICASA with speed.

Mr Kalako asked if licensing spectrum were not working well during his tenure.

Mr Kalako asked what caused the delay in getting licensing spectrum off the ground.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate 10: Ms Lulama Mokhobo

The Chairperson asked Ms Mokhobo to tell the Committee who she was, if she had any conflict of interests, and notified her that the Committee had conducted a security and qualifications check and said that there was a finding on her credit record.

Ms Shinn asked if Ms Mokhobo would have stopped the Multichoice deal if she had still been employed at the SABC.

Ms Shinn asked what Ms Mokhobo would do about the relationship between ICASA and SABC if she became a Councillor.

Mr Madisha said that Ms Mokhobo had an extensive CV and he knew of her problems with the board, her refusal to sign the Multichoice deal, and others. Mr Madisha asked if Ms Mokhobo would be able to work with the SABC given the changes that Parliament had made, and ensure that there was a peaceful relationship between ICASA and SABC.

Mr Madisha wanted to know if Ms Mokhobo was appointed to the ICASA Council she would do all that needed to be done in that capacity.

Dr Ndlozi asked what the immediate process to force the cost of communication in relation to data to fall down would be.

Dr Ndlozi asked what would be the immediate thing done to break the back of Mr Koos Bekker since he had a monopoly over paid television.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Parliament should make Naspers pay for benefitting from the apartheid system.

Ms Matshoba said that ICASA as a regulator was critical to the economy and asked what Ms Mokhobo’s view of data costs in South Africa were.

Ms Matshoba asked what the terms “duty of care” and “loyalty” meant as this was needed from a Councillor.

Ms Matshoba asked how ICASA worked with MDDA on the community radio sector.

Ms Matshoba asked if South Africa was managing licenses properly as a developing country.

Ms Matshoba asked Mr Mokhobo to take the Committee through the ICT value chain and what route of transformation South Africa must take.

Mr Kalako asked if Ms Mokhobo was lobbied by anyone that she had worked with after leaving SABC.

Mr Kalako asked if encryption was still relevant under present circumstances of development in ICT.

Mr Kalako said there was a view amongst some people that focusing on paid TV was outdated. He asked what Ms Mokhobo’s opinion was.

Mr Kalako asked what the problem of ICASA was on the complaint by SABC on censorship and asked if the act was clear on the functions of ICASA and SABC.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Ms Mokhobo was not nominated by Contralesa (Congress of Traditional Leaders of South Africa).

The Chairperson asked what distinguished Ms Mokhobo from the other 12 candidates been interviewed.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate 11: Mr Ashraf Patel

The Chairperson said that Mr Patel must introduce himself to the Committee, and that there was one problem found by SSA. The Chairperson asked Mr Patel to disclose any issues if any.

Mr Madisha said that ICASA was responsible for regulating the telecommunications industry in the public interest for all South Africans and asked if South Africa’s telecommunications industry was globally competitive, and if it was not, how could they make it competitive.

Mr Madisha asked if Mr Patel would be willing to put his shoulder to wheel to ensure nation building and social cohesion.

Ms Shinn asked if Mr Patel was still an analyst.

Ms Shinn asked if Mr Patel was full time employed.

Ms Shinn asked what ICASA could have done to open up the market more in the liberalisation era.

Ms Shinn asked what ICASA’s contribution would be to making the change happen in the market.

Mr Kalako asked what the relationship between consumer structure and ICASA was.

Mr Kalako asked what Mr Patel’s understanding was on the regulatory imperatives, and also what form allocation of spectrum needed to take.

Mr Kalako asked what the nature and role of ICASA Councillors was, and if it was the same as other boards.

The Chairperson asked how ICASA discharged its responsibilities as a regulator.

The Chairperson asked if current Councillors were not incredible ethical in how they operated.

The Chairperson asked what Mr Patel’s reaction would be if influenced to award a certain license.

Mr Madisha asked if Mr Patel was an honest person and had integrity.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate 12: Ms Kate Skinner

The Chairperson asked Ms Skinner to briefly introduce herself and give an overview of her background as well as declare any issues she could have.

Mr Madisha indicated to the Chairperson that Ms Skinner had worked with him during his years in the trade union movement.

Mr Madisha asked what in Ms Skinner’s opinion the term “in the public interest” implied, and how ICASA would ensure that this was achieved and maintained.

Mr Madisha asked if Ms Skinner believed that there was sufficient competition in the telecommunications and broadcasting sector, and if not how could it be improved.

Mr Madisha asked if ICASA could add critically to the telecommunications and broadcasting sector for citizenship and democracy

Ms Shinn said that Ms Skinner had not indicated any full time employment, and asked if she was paid for all the work she had done consulting for the various organisations listed in her CV.

Ms Shinn said that if Ms Skinner was appointed to the ICASA Council she would have to give up all her volunteer work and that it would be a pity.

Ms Shinn asked what public broadcasting should be.

Ms Shinn asked what Ms Skinner saw was wrong in ICASA.

Ms Shinn asked how Ms Skinner would make ICASA follow through.

Dr Ndlozi said that he had a problem with white monopoly capital in the sector and asked what Ms Skinner’s view of that issue was, and what the solution would be.

Dr Ndlozi asked if regulating the price of premium content and stating that it cannot be sold above a certain price was the solution to regulating the sector.

Dr Ndlozi asked if the set top boxes were the problem in the sector, and why Mr Koos Bekker was the only player.

Dr Ndlozi said that DSTV and Naspers in particular had huge lobby powers over politicians.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Ms Skinner’s view would be about nationalising Naspers.

Mr Kalako asked what Ms Skinner thought was a major problem in the sector in trying to implement transformation in the communications sector.

Mr Kalako asked what the role should be of SABC and ICASA since ICASA was a regulator over the SABC.

Mr Kalako asked what Ms Skinner’s view was of the independence of ICASA.

The Chairperson asked if Ms Skinner was saying that ICASA should be part of the Chapter nine institutions.

Dr Ndlozi asked what Ms Skinner’s relationship with Mr Madisha was.

Refer to audio for responses

Candidate 13: Mr Phosa Mashangoane

The Chairperson asked Mr Mashangoane to introduced himself and share with the Committee what the credit report was for as well as declare if he had any issues of conflict.

Mr Kalako asked what other related legislation assisted ICASA in making regulation as whole.

Mr Kalako asked what Mr Mashangoane’s understanding of the role of ICASA Council was and how the role of Councillors were in relation to other state institutions.

Mr Kalako asked what the best way of allocating spectrum in South Africa was.

The Chairperson asked if there was a MOU between the DoC and DTPS.

The Chairperson asked if Mr Mashangoane had worked with Mr Paris Mashile, Minister Aaron Motsoaledi, and Mr Jackson Mthembu.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Jackson Mthembu was notified that he was listed as a reference.

Dr Ndlozi asked why Mr Mthembu’s name was listed on the CV and if he was trying to score points with the Committee by mentioning high profile people.

Dr Ndlozi asked how many years Mr Mashangoane had been an executive manager at ICASA, and asked why he wanted to go back.

Dr Ndlozi asked what special thing Mr Mashangoane would be doing as a Councillor that he had not done while he was an Executive Manager at ICASA.

Dr Ndlozi asked how Mr Mashangoane would cut down the retail price.

Dr Ndlozi asked which years Mr Mashangoane served as an Acting Regional News Editor at the SABC.

Dr Ndlozi said that Mr Mashangoane worked in an apartheid SABC and if he had not seen any problems with that.

Dr Ndlozi asked what was different about the apartheid SABC and the current SABC.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Mashangoane said the SABC of the 1980s was better than it was now.

Dr Ndlozi asked if Mr Mashangoane served as Vice Director of Sport in the SABC during the same time he served as an Acting Regional Editor in the 1980s.

Mr Madisha asked if Mr Mashangoane applied for the council position because he was unemployed.

Mr Madisha said that having worked in ICASA, Mr Mashangoane knew that SABC faced serious challenges, and asked what Mr Mashangoane would do to make sure something was done about the SABC.

Mr Madisha asked if Mr Mashangoane was honest.

Mr Madisha asked how Mr Mashangoane would ensure that the issue of telecommunications, postal industry and broadcasting would be addressed because ICASA played a significant role there.

Ms Shinn asked if Mr Mashangoane was currently employed.

Ms Shinn asked why Mr Mashangoane left ICASA.

Ms Shinn asked if Mr Mashangoane was earning pension money.

Ms Shinn asked where Mr Mashangoane was employed when he served as Member of the Advocacy subcommittee for the Chapter nine institutions.

Ms Shinn asked what Mr Mashangoane’s view was of ICASA being a Chapter nine institution.

Ms Shinn said that Mr Mashangoane would be in conflict with decisions on spectrum auction with the Minister or government of the day if he was appointed as a Councillor and asked if he would act independently without sway from political friends in the ANC.

Ms Shinn said that she gathered by Mr Mashangoane’s answer that he believed that the law governing the independence of Chapter nine institutions and ICASA, the Electronic Communications Act and the ICASA Act were not strong enough to protect the independence of ICASA, and asked what the MOU to protect ICASA’s independence would entail.

Ms Shinn asked if CGE had a MOU with the Department of Justice.

Dr Ndlozi said that the answers Mr Mashangoane gave made the Committee very weary and asked if he knew the difference between a public broadcaster and state broadcaster.

Dr Ndlozi asked if the SABC in the 1980s was a state broadcaster or public broadcaster.

The Chairperson asked if the position of Producer from 1987 to 1989 to his position from 1989-1995 as Senior Producer was a promotion.

The Chairperson thanked Mr Mashangoane for availing himself and urged him to follow the process as the Committee would deliberate on the interviews and recommend candidates for approval to the National Assembly.

Refer to audio for responses

The interviews were completed and the meeting was adjourned.
 

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