Coordinating Ministry: Political Legal and Security Affairs of Republic of Indonesia

Meeting report

Discussions with Indonesian delegation
Mr Suprapto Martovetomo, Indonesian Ambassador to South Africa, based at the Indonesian Embassy in Pretoria, introduced himself, and his delegation. He stated that the reason he was meeting with the Committee was to study the South African perception of Indonesia, and to promote a better bilateral relationship between the two countries. He expressed appreciation to the Committee for this meeting.

He noted that there are a number of issues that Indonesia is currently facing. For example, he explained that there is a gap between the western and eastern parts of Indonesia. Indonesia is the biggest economy in ASEAN, with a GDP of about US $1 trillion. In the last five years, he noted that the country’s average economic growth had been 5.7%, with this year’s growth rate at 5.2%.

Mr Martovetomo explained that under the current president, Joko Widodo, Indonesia has concentrated its development on the eastern part of the country, in places such as Papua, which are undeveloped. However, he noted that development can be difficult, as 70% of Indonesia’s total territory is water. He explained that Indonesia is the biggest archipelago country in the world, but that cohesiveness is aided by the fact that there is one national language, which is the language of the smallest tribe.

He felt it was time for Indonesia to invite its South African brothers and sisters to come and do business in Indonesia, and stated that South Africa was part of Indonesia’s strategic partnership plan.

Mr Yoedhi Swastono, Deputy Minister: Domestic Policy, Coordinating Ministry for Political, Judicial and Security, explained that President Widodo is trying to close the developmental gap between the west and east of the country. This is being accomplished through an acceleration of the development of education and infrastructure in Papua.

Mr Swastono noted that from 2011-2015 roughly $22.75 billion was allocated for development of the two provinces of Papua. This money was used to develop education and infrastructure. However, he stated that, based on the UN Human Development Index, those two provinces were the least developed of all of the Indonesian islands.

The Indonesian approach to Papuan development is based on the Holistic Development Approach, which focuses on seven points: economic empowerment, education, health, infrastructure, human rights, and diplomacy.

Mr Franzalbert Joku, Special Staff, Coordinating Ministry of Political, Judicial and Security, thanked the Chairperson and MPs. He noted that South Africa’s history and experience is very interesting for him, ranging from the aristocracy, through settler wars, through apartheid, to post-apartheid democracy. He noted that after winning political power, Mr Mandela and the ANC leadership embraced the diversity of the country.

He noted that Indonesia has a similar and shared experience with both Dutch and English colonisation, and that Indonesia faces similar challenges to South Africa, with a very diverse population, and a diversity of religions and languages.

Mr Joku explained that during negotiations after Indonesia declared independence from The Netherlands in 1945, the island of Papua was kept out of the discussion, and that the Dutch decision to not promote a unified Indonesia had created many of the current problems.

Mr Joku stated that, as a Papuan, he keeps telling the Indonesian government that the people who were left in Papua were not inherently against the Indonesians, but were fighting Dutch colonialism and oppression. In 1969, the UN decreed that Papua was part of the nation of Indonesia, but Papua is still a semi-autonomous region. The most important development for Papuans is the Special Autonomy Law, which gives Papuans some independent control over their own affairs. He stated that it is especially important for Papuans to be able to handle their own development and affairs. For some it was seen as as an important step toward equality with the rest of Indonesia. Nonetheless, many Papuans had disagreed, and fled into exile, wanting complete independence.

Mr Joku takes a very positive view of what is happening now in Papua, and he stated that whenever he is abroad, he tells those in exile that Papua can still achieve prosperity by collaborating with the Indonesian national government.

The Chairperson noted that South Africa has one of the most enlightened constitutions in the world, which was written after looking at the constitutions of other countries. South Africa was a non-racial and non-sexist state, which was very important, and that it promoted gender equality. He also explained that South Africa is secular, and does not discriminate against any of the official languages.

Mr B Radebe (ANC) noted that the history of South Africa and the history of Indonesia are intertwined. An important step toward building a friendly relationship was in 1955 when the Indonesian government invited the ANC to the Bandung Conference, even though at this time is was not the party in power. He noted that colonisation comes in different forms and he repeated that Dutch and English colonisation applied in both Indonesia and South Africa.

South Africans and the ANC had recognised that they would not lead with anger against the current generation and it was also recognised that many South Africans who had benefitted from apartheid had not supported it and ought not to have it held against them. In the most recent elections, even though the ANC lost some ground, he noted that there was no backlash, and the most important thing was that everyone is South African.

Mr Radebe agreed that education and infrastructure must be promoted in Papua, with special programmes implemented to help the island close the development gap. If people are not educated, they will forever be dependent on the state. However, if you educate a single person, he or she can pull a whole family out of poverty; if you educate a whole population, they can help an entire region develop.

Mr Radebe concluded by stating that South Africa would like to be a part of the Indonesian experience.

Ms S Kalyan (DA) was fascinated to hear of the success of Papua’s autonomic experience. She asked for clarification on the model on which that autonomy was based, and asked if Indonesia had embarked on a repatriation programme. She noted that in South Africa, that repatriation programme is called “Come Back Home.”

Ms D Raphuti (ANC) thanked the delegation for this information, but commented on the lack of women in the delegation. She added that in South Africa, development was also driven by education, health, economic empowerment, security, and employment.

Ms T Kenye (ANC) thanked the delegation for the information given. Noting that there were no women, she asked for an explanation on the economic empowerment of women in Papua, also asking if the  Special Autonomy Law had any stipulations about gender equality and empowerment. She asked what the education system was like in Indonesia, commenting that South Africa is having a serious issue with education reform in the country at the moment.

Ms Kenye also asked for more information on human rights in Indonesia, stating that South Africa promotes human rights domestically and also does so abroad, through peacekeeping missions. She stated that there should be a partnership on human rights issues.

Mr S Mokgalapa (DA) thanked the Chairperson and welcomed the Indonesian delegation. He noted that the global economy is undergoing severe strain, but that, admirably, Indonesia grew at 5.2% whereas South Africa only grew at a rate of 0.5%. He asked for an explanation of the measures that Indonesia had implemented to promote growth, and what it had done to achieve this growth rate.

Mr Mpumlwana asked about the diversity of people and languages in Indonesia, explaining that in South Africa all languages were recognised. He also asked for clarification on the Indonesia-Australia relationship, with regards to trade and alliances. Lastly, he noted that much of the tension in the South China Sea right now is about land and resources, and he wondered what Indonesia might have done to make peace in the region. He noted that South Africa prides itself on being peacemakers and helping to negotiate peaceful settlements between warring nations. He asked if Indonesia engaged in the same activities.

Mr D Bergman (DA) thanked the delegation for a useful meeting.

The Chairperson asked how the Indonesian government involved its public in governmental affairs, laws and policies.

He noted that in the Foreign Service, South African MPs travelled to different countries to learn how they run their Foreign Service, but that South Africa still struggled with a lack of cohesion in its Foreign Service, and he asked how Indonesia harmonised its foreign service.

He added that South Africa has worked with countries all over the world, and from different ideological standpoints, and has strong South-South relationships as well as working with the West and East. South Africa had worked with money lenders of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, even though the Committee believed that conditions imposed were not always fair to developing countries. The BRICS Bank was being created to combat the issues relating to the West dictating economic terms, with a branch opening in Johannesburg.

The Chairperson stated that one of the worst aspects of Africa is that infrastructure was poor – and this included roads (often with no roads linking major centres directly to each other) , airports, hospitals and schools, and travel to some countries even involved flying via Europe. However, he did note that the continent has a very strong agricultural sector and strong agricultural trade.

The Chairperson concluded that he would also like to see South African MPs visit Indonesia’s Parliament, to come together to learn about best practices.

Mr Radebe noted that South Africa had a secession crisis as well, in the early 1990s, involving groups from KwaZulu Natal and this had led to an open engagement on how to unify South Africa. He suggested that that this could also work in Indonesia, bringing together the Indonesian government and the dissidents in Papua and abroad. In South Africa each political party had its own armed wing, and there was a low-intensity war even as negotiations were happening, but each party nonetheless came together to work out their differences.

He added that the Truth and Reconciliation Commission differed from other post-war reconciliation processes, such as the Nuremburg Trials after WWII. South Africa chose a mix of justice and reconciliation, over pure justice.

The Chairperson added to this point, stressing that after apartheid had broken down the different political parties, who did not like each other, still came together to create the current Constitution. Another of the deliberate decisions of the new South African government was that, in order to heal the wounds of the past, it would not hunt down the perpetrators of apartheid. The UN had declared that apartheid was a crime against humanity, so it would have been possible but the new government chose peaceful engagement and has continued to advocate for peace internationally, as a way to make closure with the past. as a way forward.

The Chairperson noted that there have been a number of countries that have had secessionist movements, but that South Africa has advised them to bring those movements to the table, to have a discussion.

Mr Martovetomo, answering a previous question about corruption in Indonesia, explained that Indonesia has a very powerful Corruption Commission, which has wide-sweeping powers, including legal authority to tap the phones of any government officials or private citizens.

Mr Martovetomo noted that in Indonesia, the Foreign Service is very streamlined, with full oversight handled by the Indonesian Parliament.

Responding to questions about trade, Mr Martovetomo noted that both South Africa and Indonesia are part of G20, and that the two countries have a very close relationship, with good bilateral trade agreements. Indonesia had been consistent in supporting just movements for political independence which could be seen in its support for the ANC during apartheid, for Taiwan and for Palestine. He briefly described a recent policy change under the new President.

In regard to trade, Mr Martovetomo stated that the distance meant that there are only certain goods that the two countries can trade with one another. For example, Indonesia cannot import livestock from South Africa, but it can import produce. Also because of Indonesia’s strict laws on alcohol, it is prohibitively expensive to import South African wine.

Addressing the question of gender equality in the Indonesian government, Mr Martovetomo noted that 20% of the Indonesian Parliament is made up of women, and that the country has also had a female president. He also stated that young women in Indonesia are very dynamic and active, and he suspects that in the near future, there will be many more women in positions of power.

Mr Martovetomo noted that recently Indonesia has joined ASEAN, and become part of the ASEAN single market.

Clarifying questions about Indonesia’s ethnic and linguistic diversity, Mr Martovetomo stated that the country has 1 000 ethnic groups, and many thousand languages, but that the official language and lingua franca is Indonesian. That language was adopted from the smallest tribe in 1928, decades before the country gained independence in 1945. In addition, the government has promoted the learning of English in schools and language schools.

Mr Martovetomo explained that the Indonesian government does give out scholarships for young people to study abroad, to increase international ties. Also, the government has introduced a national health care system, which is free of charge.

He noted that both Indonesia and South Africa are part of the Indian Ocean Rim Association, with Indonesia as a chair currently, and South Africa holding the position of vice-chair. In 2018, South Africa will hold the position of chair. Organizations like this help the two countries accelerate economic cooperation.

Mr Martovetomo argued that although Indonesia had been affected by the global economic downturn, the country managed to maintain its growth, because it was able to attract outside investment. In addition, the government encouraged Indonesians to invest in other countries, such as Nigeria, Sudan and Saudi Arabia. Lastly, Indonesia had been able to weather the world economic downturn because domestic consumption was extremely strong, as would be expected with a population of about 250 000 million people.

Mr Martovetomo noted that Indonesia’s relationship with Australia was “up and down”, but that the country has a strong trade relationship with Australia. The HQ of ASEAN is in Jakarta, which helps create strong trade agreements with other countries. A number of countries, such as Australia, the US, Russia, South Korea, Japan, all have two ambassadors to Indonesia.

On the issue of the South China Sea, Mr Martovetomo stated that Indonesia has encouraged each stakeholder in the conflict to come to the table to reduce the tension in the South China Sea.

Mr Swastono thanked the Chairperson. He noted that the economy of Papua has a comprehensive education programme that applied to all of the people in Papua. Free boarding school, presidential scholarships and affirmative scholarships.

He also noted that the Indonesian government provides for Papua to be a leader in the economy. The economic practices are not originally from Papua, but the Indonesian government uses affirmative economic practices to help close the gap between Papua and Indonesia.

Mr Swastono stated that Indonesia does have a repatriation program in Papua. The government explains to the Papuans in exile that the current strategy of the Indonesian government is totally different to that of the past.

Mr Joku stated that the Indonesian national government has five main responsibilities: politics, international relations, health and education, treasury and taxation, defence and security. Everything else in Papua is handled by Papuan provincial government and Parliament, under the Special Autonomy Law. In addition there are Papuan municipalities and regencies. Both the governors and vice-governors must, by law, be indigenous Papuans and all of these measures went far to make sure that Papuans can manage their regional affairs. Local leaders used to be appointed by the National Government, but are not appointed by Papuans. In the Papuan provincial government, there is a 50-member Parliament, to which both Papuans and non-Papuans can get elected. In addition, there is provision for the seven customary regions, which all get an additional member, who must be an indigenous Papuan. Lastly, the Papuan People's Assembly safeguards Papuan people’s rights and culture, and that too is made up of indigenous Papuans.

Mr Joku stated that there is a commission to provide oversight but that corruption is still a serious issue in Papua.

On a national governance level, Mr Joku explained that Papua has 13 seats in the national government. However, there is tension; Papuans say that those seats should be strictly for indigenous Papuans, but the political parties want those seats to go to the strongest politicians. Currently, only five members are indigenous Papuans.

Mr Joku did note that one of the Cabinet members of President Widodo is Papuan, and female. Given that Papuans only make up about 3 million of the roughly 250 million Indonesians, it is very important for them to have a person in the Cabinet.

On the issue of Papuan development, Mr Joku stated that there are two sources of funding - the National Budget Fund, and the Special Autonomy Fund for Papua. He noted that many of the Papuan leaders are going astray, and the funds for Papua are being misused. He stated that many of the Papuan politicians are new to the role of leadership, and are still very inexperienced.

Mr Mokgalapa thanked the delegation on behalf of Parliament and noted that it had come out very clearly that South African and Indonesia had a common shared experience historically and currently. He also recognised that Indonesia has turned economic adversity into success, cutting red tape, embracing business investment in the form of foreign investment and Indonesian investment in foreign countries. South Africa could learn a lot from Indonesia’s best practices.

Mr Martovetomo thanked the Chairperson and thanked the Committee. He concluded by inviting MPs to visit Indonesia and give their opinion and help.

The meeting was adjourned.