Minister of Police on Farlam Commission Recommendations implementation; Civilian Secretariat for Police & IPID 1st Quarter 2015/16 performance

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02 September 2015
Chairperson: Mr F Beukman (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Committee met to work through a very packed agenda for the day beginning with a briefing by the Minister of Police on the implementation of the recommendations of the Farlam Commission of Inquiry into the Marikana tragedy. The Minister took Members through the comprehensive presentation noting that the objective was to offer a reaction to the recommendations of the Farlam Commission within the context of a broad transformation of the SA Police Service (SAPS). The recommendations were looked at in more detail, observations were made about allocation of resources vs. service delivery, key objectives in repositioning SAPS, key implications and points of attention raised by the Farlam Commissioner and the Ministry's responses to the Commission’s recommendations. The Minister spoke about creating an independent panel of experts, as a Presidential project, as an immediate step and the transformation task force to lead change management from the “outside in”. The SAPS organisational structure and leadership will be subjected to a thorough review and assessment process. A cultural and behavioural change programme will be launched. Priorities will be defined by geographical area to differentiate SAPS action and resource deployment. The integrated ICT system is an important component of transformation and specialised and modernised equipment.

The Committee engaged in lengthy discussion with the Minister on his presentation which Members agreed was professional, clear and a comprehensive response to the Farlam Commission recommendations in mapping the way forward. There was a clear need for change and new leadership to be injected into the organisation to ensure the appropriate officials were in the best positions for their skills for best talent management and to ensure there was “no old wine in new bottles”. Members were concerned about political appointments and this practice had to be addressed, the plans to change the apartheid mindset many SAPS members still clung to as well as to filter out members who brought a criminal element into SAPS. A key concern of the Committee was the strange behaviour displayed recently by top management recently in engagements with the Committee as if these officials were not answerable to Parliament. This led to the Rule 201 inquiry instituted by the Committee.

Members asked how international and local interests would be balanced in the panel of experts to ensure the South African focus was not lost, remuneration of reservists and lines of reporting causing possible delays; the timelines to achieve the massive transformation project; the need to address anomalies in the institutional framework; and whether officials implicated in Marikana would serve on the panel. Pointed questions were asked about the current status of the National Commissioner, the Criminal Justice System and if there was capacity to ensure projects worked and the integration of metro policing with SAPS. Other Members noted the presentation was a true reflection of the current state of policing, the disjuncture between resource allocation and service delivery on the ground, that if senior management were competent, Marikana would not have happened. The Minister was asked for an indication of when the President would appoint the judge to lead the panel of experts and the timeframe for appointing members to the panel and task force, if the Minister would give the same serious consideration to the report of the Khayelitsha Commission of Inquiry as he did to the Farlam Commission, whether police criminality and brutality would be dealt with, steps taken to prevent the use of R5 rifles, compensation of widows and orphans from Marikana, the role of the Civilian Secretariat for Police (CSP) in driving the process of police reform and the commencement date for the task team led by the Deputy Minister. Members hoped the presentation was not simply a well delivered one but a plan for actual implementation.

The Committee then heard from the CSP and Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID) on their 1st Quarter 2015/16 performance. The Secretariat outlined broad remarks speaking to the delivery environment, organisational environment and governance of the entity and the status of the Secretariat in the first quarter. Specific comments were made on the performance of the programmes and sub-programmes of the entity: intersectoral coordination and strategic partnerships, policy development and research, legislation, civilian oversight, monitoring and evaluation and financial administration. Progress reports were provided on the following draft bills: Firearms Amendment Bill, Critical Infrastructure Bill, Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Amendment Bill.

The Committee was concerned that the position of CFO was still vacant especially when the Secretariat should be preparing to be a designated department in the next budget vote, about expenditure in areas such as community outreach programmes, goods and services, contractors and venues and facilities and why only two provinces were implementing the Community Policing Forum guidelines. Members questioned the vetting status of top management and why the employment of disabled people was at zero. After discussion the Committee agreed the report was not detailed enough on performance or in explaining challenges or reasons for variance which made it difficult to conduct oversight– the CSP was asked to recompile the report for the Committee to consider by next week.

IPID provided a comprehensive first quarterly report where it noted expenditure stood at 22.8% against a target of 25%. In terms of performance, IPID met its targets in most programmes except in programme two – a turnaround was currently implemented in the programme to resolve under-performance. It was expected that the majority of indicators would be met by the end of the financial year. With finances, Members were taken through a comparative overview of expenditure per programme. The indicators, targets and output for each programme (investigation and information management, legal service and compliance monitoring and stakeholder management) were noted and reasons given for variances.

The Committee questioned the performance of provinces, devolution of funds, in-house capacity for pathology services to meet targets for finalising investigations and delays in filling posts. Members asked about unforeseen expenditure for employees, procurement of new office furniture, funds in the suspense account, the practice of shifting funds and about suspended officials and those in acting positions in top management and whether this impacted IPID service delivery.

Meeting report

The Chairperson alerted Members that they would need to organise extra meeting days in October to deal with the section 201 inquiry (in terms of the Rules of the National Assembly). He highlighted Chapter Four of the Constitution which stated that the National Assembly was elected to represent the people and ensure government by the people under the Constitution and it did so by scrutinising and overseeing executive action. This was read in conjunction with section 55 and 56. The Committee must maintain oversight of any organ of state falling within its portfolio and may monitor, investigate, inquire into and make recommendations concerning any such organ of state. As an oversight body, the Committee was not just restricted to line function matters. It was counterproductive for certain institutions to attack the Committee. The inquiry would continue in terms of the Constitution and the Rules of the National Assembly and the.

Implementing Farlam Commission recommendations in the context of broad transformation of SAPS
The Chairperson provided some introductory comments noting that the President released the report of the Farlam Commission in August 2015. The Committee had studied the report thoroughly to follow up on technical and operational recommendations such as the need to improve Public Order Policing (POP) and required control and command protocols. The Committee also agreed with the need for demilitarisation and to professionalise the SA Police Service (SAPS) as a priority. The recommendation by the Commission of an expert panel with international and local role-players to advise on POP was fully supported by the Committee. Urgent implementation of the recommendations was quite vital and having credible and effective police leadership could not be over-emphasised. Members had a background to the recommendations of the report as briefed by the committee researcher two weeks before. There had also since been an announcement by the President to initiate a commission of inquiry, according to the SAPS Act, when Cabinet had lost confidence in the National Commissioner of Police. The Committee awaited the outcomes of this process.

He indicated to the Minister there had been further interactions between the Committee and police management but these issues would be raised in the engagement after the briefing.

Minister of Police, Mr Nkosinathi Nhleko, appreciated the opportunity to present on this very important subject matter. He introduced Mr Alvin Rupeah, the new Acting Secretary of the Civilian Secretariat for Police (CSP) as of yesterday. He had a long history of involvement in the public service – he worked with previous Minister of Public Service and Administration, Geraldine Fraser Moleketi, and was responsible for setting up of the labour relations unit. He had worked in the public sector in differing capacities with different ministers. There were critical issues to deal with in terms of the work of the Secretariat and its position to effectively deal with the issues arising out of the recommendations of the Farlam Commission.

The Minister believed that this was an extraordinary and timely opportunity for the country to fully embrace the Commission’s recommendations and to use them to drive a broader and profound transformation of SAPS. To this end, we shall immediately initiate the creation of the Independent Panel of Experts, as recommended. We shall also create a Transformation Task Force, under the leadership of the Deputy Minister. Its responsibility will be to ensure proper implementation of the Independent Panel’s conclusions, as well as of the SAPS transformation. Transforming SAPS will be a monumental task. At least in the initial and defining phases it will need to be led with an outside-in approach. Equally fundamental for the success of the operation will be for this to become a Presidential project. We’ll also need full support from all members of Cabinet and in particular the Security Cluster and Treasury. One of the immediate actions will be around the SAPS operating model and leadership structure, focusing on the key positions: Corporate Services, Finance (CFO), Information Technology (CIO), Communication and of course Provincial Commissioners.

The Commission had recommended that a Panel of Experts be appointed, comprising: senior officers of the Legal Department of the SAPS, senior officers with extensive experience in POP, independent experts in POP, both local and international, who had experience in dealing with crowds, armed with sharp weapons and firearms, as presently prevalent in the SA context. This panel should, amongst others revise and amend all prescripts relevant to POP and investigate the world’s best practices and measures available for use, without resorting to the use of weapons capable of automatic fire, where POP methods were inadequate. In POP situations, operational decisions must be made by an officer in overall command, with recent and relevant training, skills and experience in public order policing. All radio communications should be recorded and the recordings should be preserved. Plans for POP operations should identify the means of communication which SAPS members will use to communicate with one another. A protocol should be developed and implemented for communication in large operations including alternative mechanisms, where the available radio system is such that it will not provide adequate means of communication.

Minister Nhleko said the SAPS should review the adequacy of the training of the members who use specialized equipment such as water cannons and video equipment. All SAPS helicopters should be equipped with functional video cameras. In operations where there was a high likelihood of the use of force, the plan should include the provision of adequate and speedy first aid to those who were injured. The Commission also emphasised that all police officers should be trained in basic first aid. There should be a clear protocol which stated that SAPS members with first aid training, who were at the scene of an incident where first aid was required, should administer first aid. Specialist firearm officers should receive additional training in the basic first aid skill needed to deal with gunshot wounds. The Commission added that the recommendations by the National Planning Commission, for the demilitarisation and professionalising of the SAPS, should be implemented as a matter of priority. With regards to accountability, where a police operation and its consequences had been controversial, requiring further investigation, the Minister and the National Commissioner should take care when making public statements or addressing members of the SAPS. They should not say anything which might have the effect of ‘closing the ranks’ or discourage members who were aware of inappropriate actions, from disclosing what they knew. The standing orders should more clearly require a full audit trail and an adequate recording of police operations. The SAPS and its members should accept that they had a duty of public accountability and truth-telling, because they exercise force on behalf of all South Africans, the Commission stated. The staffing and resourcing of the Independent Police Investigations Directorate (IPID) should be reviewed to ensure that it was able to carry out its functions effectively. In terms of the referral for further investigation in terms of Section 24(1) of the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) Act, the Commission recommended a full investigation, under the direction of the Director of Public Prosecutions in North West, with a view to ascertaining criminal liability on the part of all members of the SAPS who were involved in the incidents at scene 1 and 2. For the purposes of the investigation, a team should be appointed, headed by a Senior State Advocate, together with independent experts in the reconstruction of crime scenes, expert ballistic and forensic pathologists practitioners and senior investigators from IPID, and any such further experts as may be necessary.

The Minister then spoke to the allocation of resources vs. service delivery where budget allocation increase in SAPS each year (approx. 6% annually) did not necessarily translated to increased service delivery per se. This was an area which required specific attention. The challenge with SA was that at least 74% of the SAPS budget went to personnel costs. The issue of resource allocation came up often during engagement with communities. There was also the challenge of the rural-urban divide. The question was how to begin to undertake an exercise that had to strike a relative balance between resource allocation and service delivery.

In terms of key missions in repositioning SAPS to ensure trust and respect from the community to build a strong public image, included:
-improving SAPS proximity and accessibility to improve visibility in the community and accessibility of SAPS forces by any member of the public and reduced fear caused by crime in the community through increased engagement with the community, for example, through community forums
-prevent, investigate and repress crime by implementing measures to prevent individuals or institutions from committing crime and repressing, investigating and resolving crimes quickly and effectively and ensure offenders were brought to justice
-integrate the security cluster by building a transversal ICT network across the police, justice and correctional services departments, improve processes and policies to enable effective ICT implementation and to integrate SAPS and metro forces
-coordinate international entities by cooperating with local and international stakeholders to ensure the success of crime prevention and repression missions, exchanging intelligence, sharing best practice in fighting crime and information and cooperating in crisis management.

Minister Nhleko briefly discussed key implications and points of attention raised by the Farlam Commission on SAPS relating to SAPS organisation and culture, operating principles and procedures, equipment and infrastructure, training and learning and the legislative and regulatory framework. He turned to a response to the Farlam Commission’s recommendations noting that the vision or ambition was to make SA safe and build a national asset that South Africans were proud of and police officers were proud to serve in. goals included a reduction in the violent crime rate, reduction in crime against women and children, increase in detection rates and a shift in public perceptions of the SAPS force. Key enablers in the implementation of the Commission’s recommendations included culture and people, the organisational structure, operating principles, skills, training and professionalisation, ICT infrastructure and equipment, funding and legislation, policy and regulation.

As an immediate step, an independent panel of experts will be created as a presidential project. The Committee was taken through the possible composition of the panel, its non-exhaustive mandate, process and lines of reporting. This worked alongside the transformation task force to lead the change management from the “outside-in”. Members were also informed about the preliminary composition of the task force along with its role/mandate, process and lines of reporting. In the next 24 months, SAPS transformation will focus on three main “imperatives”: Farlam Commission recommendations (and focus on POP), micro-criminality such as hijackings and robberies and syndicates relating to drugs and customs/borders, working through the six enablers of culture and people, organisation structure, operating principles and training, ICT infrastructure and equipment, funding and legislation, policy and regulations.

SAPS organisation structure and its leadership will be subject to a thorough review and assessment process. In addition and consistently to a Code of Ethic, a specific cultural and behavioural change programme will be launched with moment of truth during which appropriate police behaviour/implementation of the code ethics was critical.

Minister Nhleko said priorities will be defined by geographical area, consequently differentiating SAPS action and resource deployment to ensure SAPS was closer to the citizens and to the territory. Crime type and occurrence should determine specialised units location and deployment of resources. Collaboration with local communities will also be a critical part of the transformation. An important component of the transformation will be an integrated ICT system. This would also allow for new investigation techniques, for example, data mining and phone traffic monitoring to increase investigation speed and reduce repeat offenders. Equipment will be modernised and specialised by type of police activity for example with POP.

The Chairperson welcomed the presentation as in effect a 'state of the police' address. He welcomed the fact that it was a presidential project and also, in effect, a ministerial project. The observation of the Committee during the last six to eight weeks showed there was a clear need for change and new leadership. Will the project to drive change also take cognisance of the need to eject new leadership because any change project was dependent on role players on board? The Committee had seen excellent projects which displayed the talent but there were questions if, in terms of talent management, individuals were in the right position. Would the task team look at these issues? Old wine in new bottles would not be effective.

Ms A Molebatsi (ANC) agreed on the need for effective leadership in SAPS in line with the NDP. In addressing this, will this include the removing of ineffective people in leadership? It was found that good generals excelling in an area of work were suddenly moved to an area where he/she did not add value – will this also be considered? In speaking of a panel of experts, would the inclusion of international experts no influence the end product by addressing more international norms than local norms?

Minister Nhleko said it was difficult to indicate at this stage whether people would be removed. He deliberately shied away from subjective approaches but if there was a situation where, for example, an engineer was a receptionist, there was something very wrong. From the angle of responsible management, it was important to deal with such disjunctures or anomalies but he could not foresee what would come from taking stock of what existed. Within SAPS there was a very good crop of policemen and women and it was critical to tap into this reservoir of knowledge, experience and expertise for change management. Those who did philosophy would know the concept of negation of the negation which was essentially about taking stock of what existed and what could be used in the future in terms of change management. With the panel of experts, at the risk of sounding arrogant, he thought SA could teach many parts of the world about its own experience. The international angle was important in so far as tapping into areas of best practice and blending that with local experience – this approach was different from directly transposing something onto South Africa. It was important to look at global current trends and what was happening. SA had knowledgeable experts and researchers which could be pulled in and combined with international experience and expertise – the balance should not be tilted largely in favour of the international experience because SA was very unique.

Ms M Mmola (ANC) asked if the reservists would be remunerated if they were selected.

Minister Nhleko replied that the issue of reservists needed to be re-visited in broad terms because of concerns and problems expressed before. For a programme of this nature to make sense and have effect, it required mobilisation of all structures that mattered in society and to galvanise their direction. It was to the benefit of SA as a whole to transform the SAPS and reposition the Service towards the constitutional ethos.

Ms L Mabija (ANC) thought the report was well presented and she hoped it would be properly implemented. She asked how the Minister would sift out SAPS members who form part of crime activities from within and outside the organisation specifically for fired, retired or members who had resigned. She was concerned by many members still hooked in the apartheid training – if the mindset was not changed, a lot of challenges would be encountered. Could this be addressed through a plan to transform the mindset of such members?

Minister Nhleko indicated that any effective change management programme needed to largely embrace three fundamental elements: people and culture, business processes and institutional arrangements. systems such as policies followed and systems in place to manage plans. These three elements informed the change management programme. Some of the recommendations of the Farlam Commission spoke to these elements. He was of the view that mindset change was an ongoing process and was something worth investing in because without, the institution would never be shifted. This was work to be factored in.

Mr L Ramatlakane (ANC) made reference to issues with SAPS culture which was also spoken to in the Farlam Commission. The Committee experienced some of this strange culture recently in meetings of top police management coming before Members, more than once, behaving in a foreign culture that demonstrated that they were not answerable to Parliament in the form of this Committee. This was the top brass and structure of the police and resulted in the section 201 inquiry by the Committee because of the conduct and behaviour displayed. How would this issue be dealt with? He thought the demonstration showed the most important person in the eyes of the majority of police officers was the National Commissioner as the person that hired them and fired them. In terms of current protocols of appointment of senior management, shouldn’t the Minister, as the Executive authority, play a role also in terms of constitutional responsibility for the determination of those occupying senior positions? He also questioned the scale of international vs. local expertise on the panel of experts.

Minister Nhleko said concerted efforts were made to define the police service outside of body of the public service. This was because of what the Service used to be pre-democracy – it was a law unto itself essentially. It had a military outlook and all instruments were designed accordingly. His opinion was that the fundamental mistake of democracy was the failure to gravitate the Service from where it used to be before 1994 into a constitutional order. The last time the SAPS Act was dealt with was in 1995 - a year later the Constitution was adopted in 1996. This raised a disjuncture around whether the two were aligned.

Mr J Maake (ANC) questioned the duration of the process which, as he saw it, was a total overhaul of the SAPS. He was interested in the procedure going forward especially with the panel of experts. He was also interested in the lines of reporting involving the Minister and the Deputy Minister and whether this entailed some level of refinement of the end product. He was concerned about the differences between international and domestic policing experience when speaking about the inclusion of international experts in the panel of experts. He was concerned about the large task at hand which entailed structural and culture change and reviewing legislation in the space of just 15 months. There were a number of anomalies to address in the institutional framework of governance otherwise it could result in serious risk.

Minister Nhleko thought the starting point was a needs analysis and identification of what needed to be done. This was where the panel of experts would look specifically at the Farlam Commission recommendations and determine the deliverables or what needed to be achieved and design steps for what needed to be instituted moving forward. There needed to be a feedback process on an ongoing basis and this involved the element of refining – he did not simply see implementation taking place without a process of refinement.

Mr J Mahumapelo (AGANG) questioned the mechanisms the Minister would use to accelerate the transformation of SAPS. Was there no budget allocated to resources to speed up service delivery?

Minister Nhleko explained there was international benchmarking around budgets and he thought of it as a specialised branch of work of finance management in terms of spend vs. service delivery and how to move closer to this benchmarking. The issue of availability of resources and service delivery in communities was a constant feature of complaints and grievances. To address this, one needed to look at the anomaly of resource allocation vs. delivery of services. It was a matter sharply raised by MECs of various provinces and the need to review this resource allocation guide.

Mr P Mhlongo (EFF) thought that there could not be success with the implementation of the Farlam recommendations with current management given the serious gaps in leadership the Committee had seen. He asked if the Minister could divide the recommendations between short term and long term interventions. He thought that there might be time delays by putting the Commissioner beneath the Deputy Minister in terms of line of reporting – this organogram might need to be reconfigured to quicken the process and prevent an administrative gap between the Commissioner and the Minister.

Minister Nhleko still needed to apply his mind fully to this question and fully understand the reasoning but it was worth looking into. One of the failures of transforming institutions, even those globally, was when people decided to be positional instead of focusing on stated objectives. He hoped that when it came to constituting the panel of experts and task team that people focused on the objectives and not on the position they held whether real or perceived.

Ms D Kohler Barnard (DA) was pleased with the presentation as it was truly one of the most professional presentations to come from the Ministry or SAPS in her nine years on the Committee and it almost allowed her to feel a modicum of hope. She found it showed a move toward 21st century advanced policing which had been totally absent. She was concerned about individuals involved in Marikana serving on various of the panels. Hopes had been dashed time and again with fine plans presented but they fell short on implementation so the scepticism remained until one saw action happening. She addressed the elephant in the room and asked if the National Commissioner had been suspended pending the outcome of the investigation into her fitness to hold office. She was concerned about the length of time to reach an outcome or some sort of determination by which time her contract would have probably expired and this could be a stumbling block to this entire process. She noted the catastrophe of having Richard Mdluli hang around year after year raking in millions while sitting at home. She was concerned about great plans that lacked implementation in terms of capacity. For example with the Criminal Justice System (CJS) integration construct, the simplest part of the project, e-dockets, had failed. This was experienced when rolling projects out to stations where there were questions around human resource capacity, vehicles, lack of drivers and firearm licences etc – those were the issues which seized the minds of the civilians on the street. She sought these assurances when it came to implementation. A simple example was the Committee, a few years ago, suggesting rubber gloves be kept in every operational vehicle so members could administer first aid but this had never happened. Another suggestion was mini-kits in every vehicle so that members did not contaminate crime scenes but this never happened. There was lots of talk with zero implementation and it was incredibly frustrating.

Minister Nhleko appealed for a step away from scepticism as the challenge was so huge that it required one to be on the positive and constructive side of things in order to face up to the challenge. Elements of scepticism and cynicism was experienced with change management but the point was encourage those internally and externally to be active role-players because this was largely a societal matter.

Mr Z Mbhele (DA) echoed sentiments about the quality and calibre of the presentation delivered by the Minister. He was pleased that the presentation picked up on the disjuncture between general resource allocation in SAPS which did not tangibly filter through to the ground as experienced on Committee oversight at stations and the nature of complaints received from the public. He would have thought increased allocation meant the crime prevention impact would have been more greatly felt but this was not happening and it needed to be looked at. He sought more clarity on worrying and curious concepts in the presentation relating to integrating SAPS and the metro forces and unification of police forces. Operational centralisation might hamper the flexibility of policing action in different spheres of government and so possible contradiction needed to be resolved. He did not see anything wrong with having minimum national norms and standards for SAPS and metro police but he challenged the idea of structural integration which removed the autonomy of metro police forces to perform their mandate in a certain geographic sphere. He found this would set the country back in addressing crime.

Minister Nhleko was aware of debates with reference to a single police service however integration was something which needed further dissection – it might not be the same as a merger but it could speak to issues of common systems, common platforms etc for coordination purposes.

Mr P Groenewald (FF+) found the presentation quite disturbing because it provided the Committee with a picture of what was actually happening in the police service currently. For example the slide looking at moments of truth where the necessary behaviour should have been happening anyway. He found it a sad day that a Commission needed to be established after an incident where it was found SA did not have a professional service and top management imploded. This was unfair to those in uniform who did their utmost to ensure the Service was professional. The presentation painted the need for an overhaul of SAPS to attain what was supposed to be there in the first place. If senior management was competent, a Farlam Commission would not have been needed. This was actually an acknowledgment of the bad situation of top management in SAPS. It was said in this Committee that in 1995, training in crowd control in SAPS was actually stopped. It was only with the killing of Andries Tatane in Ficksburg that there was a wakeup call to look again at crowd control. He was of the opinion that the country was in this situation because of political interference and the political appointment of senor officers. The National Commissioner was appointed in June 2012 and two months later Marikana occurred – she had no knowledge of police activities or the Service. The Farlam report made reference to the fact that critical and crucial decisions were influenced by political views from the North West Provincial Commissioner as well as the National Commissioner. This problem of political interference would have to be addressed drastically or else he predicted the same situation. Without competent and experienced officials in top management, problems would not be solved. He questioned if there was an indication of when the President would appointment the judge to lead the panel of experts because until this appointment was made, nothing would happen. It was also not easy to get international experts – what timeframe did the Minister envisage before both panels would be appointed?

Minister Nhelko said he was currently running one on one engagements at a local level with potential members of the panel across the spectrum for example academics and individuals in NGOs who had expertise to tap into. The international environment was also to be scanned carefully for which countries would be best to make contributions. He emphasised this was a very urgent matter and needed to be attended to effectively. He heard the concerns of Members that things which should have occurred early on in democracy did not occur. There were questions he could not answer as it involved other authorities such as the President who he could not speak for. Moments of truth should be understood as striving to do better or improve the Service. On political appointments, he disagreed with the view that political appointments necessarily equalled inefficiency unless it had been proven. If someone was inefficient this did not have anything to do with the nature or form of appointment. A line needed to be drawn between conduct on a day to day basis and work done and the nature and form of appointment. It was not in anyone’s interest to have a failing institution. It could not be disputed that it was important to ensure political appointments did not equate to inefficiency as a principle.

Mr Groenewald asked if the Minister agreed that political appointments could not be involved with police operations – he understood this was different from the Minister as a political appointee. Someone once remarked that if one was a manager of Checkers, you could also be the National Commissioner of Police.

Minister Nhleko found issue with less objectivity raised in debates on this matter – the line needed to be drawn between the attributes and competency of a person and form and character of appointment. The two should not be conflated i.e. form and character of appointment should not determine the level of skill or competency – he did not agree the two were exclusive of each other. The National Commissioner was a strategic management position and it was essentially a function different from a station commander for example who was at the coalface of operations. At the same time this needed to be managed with strategic management expertise, skilling and some degree of exposure at a basic level around issues involving the security cluster. The weakness in the debate was that an “either or” kind of approach had been adopted where it was thought a professional police person was needed to be a National Commissioner while others did not see this as a necessity. The ideal would be a balance between the two. The issue was part of an intricate ongoing debate. In directing work and the function of policing, it did however require a broader understanding of the policing society so this needed to be factored.

Mr Mbhele asked if the Minister would give the same focus, attention, seriousness, consideration and urgency to drive implementation of the findings and recommendations of the Khayelitsha Commission of Inquiry report as was given to the report of the Farlam Commission. He last heard there was agreement on the joint task team but it seemed, from media reports, that SAPS was stalling

Minister Nhleko commented that the interesting dynamic of Khayelitsha was that the issues raised in the inquiry report were the same issues communities complained of in other areas. The critical question was how these issues were addressed not only in reference to Khayelitsha but across areas. For example, the Resource Allocation Guide was raised by MECs across the country as it was in the report of the Khayelitsha inquiry. There was no way the recommendations of the Farlam Commission would be dealt with without taking into account all the issues raised either in the Khayelitsha report or in community engagements in other areas. The issue was improving services from a policing point of view and reprioritising resources – these were critical issues which could simply not be escaped.

Ms Kohler Barnard did not hear reference to police criminality and brutality in the operational milieu. In far as one knew, there were 1448 convicted criminals in SAPS and the current National Police Commissioner had failed to rid SAPS of anyone of them. These criminals were rapists, bigamists, fraudsters and used weapons to hijack people but some of these members were even promoted – one as high as Brig. General even though some committed more than one crime.

Ms Kohler Barnard asked about steps taken to prevent the use of R5 rifles because there was a huge outcry about these weapons used to kill en masse. She thought every operational member should have a camera on the bullet proof vest and in the car so if someone attacked them or they attacked someone there would be footage of it as video footage was the only time these incidents were made known. She would be grateful if these issues were included as part of the investigations.

Minister Nhleko reiterated that people and culture was an important component of change management in how people did their work and what ethos was followed in executing their work on a day to day basis. Questions of brutality, criminality and all other ills will be identified and addressed as challenges and shortcomings. This included ensuring these challenges were not repeated in the establishment through risk management.

Mr Mhlongo fully agreed with the Minister on the notion of international practice. Those who did philosophy would know there were two kinds of colonies – settler colonies and colonies of occupation and each had different patterns of crime all together. Settler colonies were very violent as opposed to colonies of occupation – should policy be outside these bounds, the point would be missed. He requested the Minister to respond to that fact that, as pointed out by the Farlam Commission, there were serious challenges in the top echelon of SAPS management – were there short term measures to address this? Without addressing this, the country would be back at square one with people protecting their positions as seen with Committee engagements with management.

Minister Nhleko said it was a matter which he would have to think of but he welcomed suggestions and agreed that these were the type of issues to also be taken into account in this area of work.

Mr Ramatlakane highlighted that one of the things the Committee spoke to management about was the changing of top structure (based on who was National Commissioner at the time) thereby ending up with heavy top management structure. He wanted to understand executive authority in dealing with this particular aspect because if it was not addressed, it would continue to be a problem which would snowball.

Minister Nhleko explained the changes which could come about from having a new individual in a position of leadership changing the structure did not always translate to better results or better performance of the organisation. For issues of structure, a comprehensive view was needed because of fundamental linkages between structure and delivery i.e. the extent to which stated objectives were delivered by the institution was largely informed by structure. Structural change needed to reinforce institutional work usefully – this was the surrounding principle.

Ms Mabija felt very relieved and proud because of today's presentation as was also expressed by other political parties. She did not wish to see some Members going to the media expressing negative sentiments and not moving SA forward police-wise.

Ms Mmola noted that repressing crime was one of the key points in the presentation – how did the Minister see this working in the courts where people were given bail and then disappeared after being successfully arrested by the police.

Minister Nhleko said this issue of repressing and investigating crime was an ever present need and it had to be done. There were questions around how to coordinate cases as the issue came up wherever one went. There was acknowledgment of the police doing its work but people were released by the courts. Talking to prosecutors, they would say it was police who were not effective in investigating cases. The matter needed to be addressed. He highlighted the case of a young child raped in Wynberg by her uncle and the Magistrate decided to throw the case out because of technical challenges from an investigation point of view. If there were loopholes, it should be identified for the investigating officer to deal with and bring the case back. This child was a victim and did not receive justice because of technical loopholes. There was nothing in law that said the case could not be sent back for the loopholes to be fixed and to bring the case back to court. This needed to be worked through coordination.

Ms Molebatsi questioned the compensation of orphans and widows from Marikana, when all was said and done.

Minister Nhleko replied that he would be briefed on this matter today by the SAPS legal team. SA needed closure pertaining to this Marikana tragedy as the blame game simply did not benefit anybody. People in the community needed to be stabilised and reconciled. He could not definitely answer the question at this stage because papers had been filed in court on the matter and so further engagement was needed.

Mr R Mavunda (ANC) questioned the accessibility of cell phones in prisons - how did the prisons gain access to signal? This should be checked.

Minister Nhelko noted this was an ongoing challenge experienced by Correctional Services and required broader discussion at a cluster level. Basically the phones got smuggled into prisons and this smuggling took place in various forms. The issues needed to be addressed in many ways including looking at signal but there was a question around cost and implications. However the matter required further engagement.

The Chairperson thought many of the recommendations tied in with what was contained in the White Paper – what will the role of the Civilian Secretariat be in driving this process in terms of police reform to ensure targets are met. What was the commencement date of the task team chaired by the Deputy Minister?

Minister Nhleko agreed that most of the issues were connected to the White Paper. The Secretariat was part of the task team and it would have to play a critical role there. The task team would need to commence pretty soon. It was difficult to govern interactions with identified potential members of the panel – he was in the middle of engagements and such processes. The international part of the process was outstanding but he was pushing very hard to engage with the relevant countries and bodies to assist.

The Chairperson presumed the Committee would receive updates as the process moved along in the next term and the Committee might have to hear from IPID on the steps they are taking. The Committee welcomed the process and would monitor it closely.

Civilian Secretariat for Police (CSP) First Quarter 2015/16 performance
Mr Willem Basson, CSP Director: Strategic Planning, spoke to the service delivery environment noting that the Afrophobic attacks on African foreign nationals made a huge impact on the Secretariat’s activities during the first quarter. The Secretariat convened interventions in the form of awareness programmes to minimise violent attacks. Communications and Intersectoral Coordination and Strategic Partnerships Programmes played a key role involving communities in minimising violent attacks. Interventions not planned in the Annual Performance Plan (APP) caused huge expenditure patterns during the first quarter. The “One Humanity” project will be an on-going given the nature of unfolding social dynamics.

In terms of the organisation environment, the Secretariat filled 107 of its 118 funded posts. 83% posts were filled in line with the approved establishment. Critical vacant posts included the Secretary of Police, Chief Financial Officer, Chief Director: Monitoring and Evaluation and Director: IT. All these posts were advertised and HR processes were underway to fill the vacancies.

Looking at governance, audit and risk management, activities included:
- Approved three year internal audit strategic and operational plan
- Approved audit committee charter
- Approved internal audit charter
- 1st quarter Audit committee meeting held to provide oversight role over organisational performance
- 1st quarter Risk Management Committee held to provide oversight on progress on enterprise risk management system, including departmental risk registers .

Overall in the first quarter, the Secretariat successfully implemented its own Virtual Private Network and was functional with regard to financial and personnel systems, email, internet etc. The Secretariat was not in a position to implement electronic supply chain management system LOGIS due to shortage of staff in terms of segregation of duties which was a risk with regard to BAS and PERSAL. The “One Humanity” campaign was initiated due to xenophobia attacks in April and May 2015 and this contributed towards higher than anticipated spending in Programme 2: Intersectoral Coordination and Strategic Partnerships.
Mr Basson turned to Programme: Intersectoral Coordination and Strategic Partnerships where key achievements included 12 Community Safety Forums (CSF’s) evaluated, five police stations implementing school safety protocols assessed, 22 Community Policing Forums (CPF’s) assessed, established the stakeholders committee and Task Team on Rural Safety in partnerships with the Gauteng Department of Community Safety and Gauteng Department of Agriculture, engagement with the Tshwane University of Technology on the implementation of safety and security measures for students and a number of provinces implementing CPF guidelines were achieved.

With the Sub-Programme: Policy Development And Research, the White Paper on Safety and Security was developed and advertised for public comments – comments were being mad into the document and the Resource Centre Quarterly report had been finalised.

With regard to Sub-Programme: Legislation, Ms Dawn Bell, CSP Chief Director: Legislation, reported:
▪ Firearms Amendment Bill: It had been on the agenda for tabling. A workshop was held with the Minister on 5 June where the outcome was that the tabling of the Bill would not be proceeded with to allow for further research and wait for the Minister’s decision on how to proceed after he had been briefed. The Bill was drafted and it was ready, pending the Minister’s decision. A task team was set up to deal with certain issues.
▪ Critical Infrastructure Bill: It had been to the JCPS Cluster three times and in each case, the Secretariat was asked to either strengthen or refine the Bill. After the last engagement, the CSP received the preliminary certification from the State Law Adviser advising the Bill was constitutional. The Secretariat was busy with the comments and recommendations made by the Cluster.
▪ Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist and Related Activities Amendment Bill: CSP was ready to come to Cabinet with it but the Secretariat was advised by SAPS Legal Services that there was an application by Mr Okah who had been prosecuted for terrorism and there was a court process in place so the outcome would be awaited.

The Chairperson asked if this meant the Committee would be dealing with these Bills only next year.

Ms Bell affirmed that that seemed to be the case as there was the still the process of advertising for public comments.

Mr Basson reported on the Programme: Civilian Oversight, Monitoring and Evaluation. Key achievements included four police station oversight visits conducted, four oversight visit reports produced and one audit report relating to the Domestic Violence Act was conducted.

With Sub-Programme: Finance Administration, expenditure up to June 2015 was 32.6%. On a straight line projection the ideal spending percentage would have been around 25.0%. The Secretariat was overspending with around 7.6% translated into budget more or less of R7, 9 million in this particular quarter. If a comparison was made between actual expenditure versus actual drawings, the Secretariat had spent R9.2 million more than its envisaged spending which was 8.8% of the total budget. Compensation of Employees was at 25.7% spending overall and the main reason was the higher than anticipated annual cost of living salary adjustment. The over spending in the Secretariat was mainly due to the additional costs for community outreach programmes after the xenophobia attacks which could be regarded as unforeseen and unavoidable expenditure.

Mr Mbhele recalled that at a last engagement, it was noted the CFO position needed to re-advertised because the short-list of candidates was deemed inadequate. He was concerned that the position was vacant particularly because the Secretariat should be preparing to be a designated department receiving funds from a parliamentary vote next year – he hoped budget planning for this had already begun. When would the finalisation of the appointment process for CFO take place? If the position would not be able to be filled, were other aspects of the organisation working on the budget plan for the vote next year?

Mr Alvin Rupeah, the new Acting Secretary, explained the filling of the post was being addressed by himself and the Minister – at a next engagement with the Committee, a more concrete answer could be provided but he hoped it would be resolved by the end of the month if possible. Addressing the issue was in line with the Public Service Act to fast track the process.

Mr Hendrick Robertse, CSP Acting CFO, added that the department went through the budget process as described and Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF) information was submitted. The Secretariat was doing its own presentations to Treasury and a consolidated request for additional funding nationally and provincially was submitted to ensure all budgets were aligned and the Act could be implemented.

The Chairperson highlighted that only 3% of expenditure went to community outreach programmes yet extensive mention was made of over-expenditure due to xenophobic attacks – he sought an explanation for this. There was also massive expenditure for the first quarter for goods and services – why was this? He did not see any expenditure for office management – was the Secretariat still accommodated by SAPS in this regard? What was the reason for the significant over expenditure for contractors and venues and facilities? Why was there no spending on computer services? He requested a comprehensive list of the consultants and contractors employed by the department. If all the funding for advertisements was utilised in the first quarter, how would an urgent new development in the environment later in the year be dealt with?

Mr Patrick Mashibini, CSP Chief Director: Corporate Services, said that by 1 August, CSP was supposed to have relocated to the new building but due to challenges experienced by Public Works, this was postponed.

Mr Robertse, speaking to expenditure, explained that overspending was due to many payments occurring later and higher accruals in the move away from SAPS – this was reported as such to the Auditor-General in financial statements. The xenophobic attacks also led to increased spending on venues and facilities, advertising, transport, catering and contractors to organise events. The Secretariat arranged many imbizos and meetings with various role-players in affected communities. Unforeseen and unavoidable memorandums was submitted for the amount of approx. R8 – R9 million. There was no expenditure on computer services in the first quarter due to delayed invoices received from SITA but they had since been received and payment had begun.

Ms Molebatsi asked if the top management of IPID was now vetted. Had the situation with the handling of Domestic Violence Act (DVA) cases improved?

Mr Mashibini confidently stated that since the last meeting with the Committee, 100% of senior managers went through the vetting and security certificates were waited from the SA Security Agency (SSA).

Ms Mmola asked why the employment of disabled persons was at 0. It was noted that two provinces implemented the CPF guidelines – what about the other seven provinces?

Mr Mashabini highlighted the building itself was not user friendly for physically challenged people – it was one of the intentions of management to prioritise physically disabled people once it had relocated.

Mr Phillip Mahlangu, IPID Chief Director: Partnerships noted that with the provinces implementing CPF guidelines, the work was done in collaboration with provinces and so two had gone ahead with the process in this quarter.

Mr Maake thought the post of CFO was very critical yet departments and institutions experienced difficulties in filling this crucial post – was it because of the qualifications or requirements were too high? Or was it because people were afraid of handling money? Who determined the qualifications needed for this post – was it the Public Service or the Secretariat itself?

Mr Rupeah indicated National Treasury, together with the Department of Public Service and Administration, determined the requirements for the job. There was no way the Secretariat could institute its own requirements which was less than what National Treasury needed. It was essential to ensure those appointed met the minimum requirements.

Mr Mhlongo asked if a central organ of the Secretariat conducted the work at the stations or if it was divisions at the provincial level? Either way, the performance in this area was poor because no visible outcomes were outlined and this raised concerns around value for money.

Ms Molebatsi asked if all provinces now had provincial Secretariats.

Mr Mavunda thought the quarterly report did not give the information which Members needed or could follow up on. An example was just saying “four police station oversight visits conducted” – the report did not elaborate on which police stations or in which province/s. The report did not go into findings or challenges during the oversight or steps taken to respond to challenges. The Committee needed to know the exact challenges found during the oversight – without this, it was difficult for Members to follow up on issues or how challenges were dealt with.

Ms Molebatsi did not see how visiting four police stations in three months, given the thousands of stations there were, could be called an achievement.

The Chairperson added that reasons for variance must be included in writing in reports going forward.

Mr Mhlongo did not find the report very informative or assisted the Committee with its oversight work – as it was, not tangible headway could be made with the report. If four police stations were visited, which four were these? What achievements were made on the oversight visits? Did the national Secretariat dependent on its own means and information or did the provincial Secretariats feed in? He found the report vague and did not give any sense of duty or responsibility.

The Chairperson found that there were no active solutions or methods to address challenges highlighted. This raises questions around action plans to deal with obstacles.

Ms Mabija observed that Members were not satisfied with the report. She requested the Chairperson's support in her recommendation for the Secretariat to go back and compile a report which met the needs of the Committee.

Mr Maake thought that perhaps a performance report was needed to accompany this quarterly report – such a performance report would give an indication of details relating to objectives and targets and the outcomes could be assessed from there instead of the current report which simply stated broad outlines.

The Chairperson found that the consensus was that more narrative performance information was needed – this was to provided by next week for the Committee to consider by 9 September and the CSP could be called in further engagement was needed.

IPID First Quarter 2015/16 performance
Mr Israel Kgamanyane, IPID Acting Executive Director, began the presentation with an overview where, for the first quarter, expenditure stood at 22.8% against a target of 25%. In terms of performance, IPID met its targets in most programmes except in programme two – a turnaround was currently implemented in the programme to resolve under-performance. It was expected that majority of indicators would be met by the end of the financial year.

Ms Lindokuhle Ngcongo, IPID CFO, took the Committee through the lengthy first quarter expenditure report where, overall, actual spending stood at 22.8% (R53 617 000) against a target of 25% (R58 695 000) – this amounted to under-spending of 2.2% (R5 078 000). Variances were due to delays in filling vacant and funded posts and goods and services and machinery and equipment have both reported unanticipated expenditure as a result of procurement orders that were made in the previous financial year and paid in the current financial year. After comparing this quarter’s performance against the previous financial year’s first quarter, the Committee as taken through a summary of budget and expenditure for the first quarter. Internal shifting of funds was effected in the quarter under review to accommodate all received and unpaid invoices for goods delivered. With regard to the Transfers payment ‘spending, the expenditure under Agencies and accounts will only take place later in the current financial year when the skills development transfers was effected to SASSITA, whilst the Households was showing a significant overspending of 38% above the quarterly target mainly due to the unforeseen expenditure of employees` leave gratuities for officials who had left the Directorate.

Ms Ngcongo outlined first quarter expenditure per sub-programme and noted that under Programme One: Administration, the bulk of expenditure was experienced in Goods and Services of Corporate services under the spending item, computer services due to the centralised ICT related activities such as datelines, mainframe services, internet services and software licences. Office accommodation also registered a significant expenditure under devolution of funds for all Directorate office accommodation leases. The expenditure will only be incurred in other programmes of the Vote once the devolution was depleted. Late procurement and delivery of office furniture and IT equipment for newly appointed employees and the replacement had resulted in 98.4% expenditure after the internal shifting of funds.

Under Programme Two: Corporate Services, the programme had registered a significant expenditure of R23.1 million in compensation of employees which confirmed the Directorate's efforts to strengthen capacity in core service delivery programme. The investigative equipment bulk procurement was done in the previous financial year but was delivered late in the year and early in the current financial year had caused a significant increase in the expenditure under machinery and equipment. The internal shifting of funds was effected in order to reprioritise and accommodate invoices for goods ordered and delivered. The bulk of expenditure in the sub-programme information management represented the amount incurred on the case management system as a result of the Directorate contractual obligation. All sub-programmes within the Programme continued to account for the increased expenditure in travel and subsistence, training of the investigators and computer services.

Under Programme Three: Legal Services, all sub-programmes except the Legal Support Administration sub programme reported lower than quarterly planned spending. A higher than planned spending of 1.5% or R26 000 was recorded under the Legal Support Administration sub-programme. At economic classification level, lower than planned spending of 3.4% was mainly under compensation of employees and 14.6% in goods and services due to legal costs budget that had not been utilised since the beginning of the financial year. The programme was also accounting for an amount of R500 000.00 that was setting in the suspense account. With the expenditure of the R500 000.00 in additions to the recorded expenditure, the programme will overspend its allocated budget and virement might be required.

Under Programme Four: Compliance Monitoring And Stakeholder Management, the Stakeholder Management sub-programme, which also received the bulk of the programme’s budget (87%), had spent 22.3% against the quarterly target amount R1 million. The compliance monitoring sub-programme had also reported a significant lower than the spending target by 16.9%. At economic classification level, spending on compensation of employees was below the target by 8.9% while goods and services reported higher than planned spending by 33.1% as at the end of June 2015 mainly due to more than planned travelling to Parliament meetings as well as invoices related to goods delivered in the previous financial year but paid in the current year - internal shifting of funds was required to address to possible shortfall in goods and services. In terms of the way forward for IPID financially, presentation of Monthly Expenditure Reports highlighting over/under expenditure was done at the Management Committee meetings. Responsibility managers had been sensitised with regards to the slow expenditure, the expenditure will be closely monitored until it materialised to desired trends and quarterly budget meetings would be held to evaluate spending trends.

Mr Vincent Sibanyoni, IPID Acting Chief Director: Corporate Services, took the Committee through the first quarter performance of the programme by outlining indicators and targets and output against the target. Challenges in the programme included with female representation but strides had been taken to increase this, late received ICT invoicing, delays in pre-employment screening and filling of vacancies.

Mr Tlabo Thokolo, IPID Chief Director: Western Cape Provincial Head, took the Committee through first quarter performance of the programme by outlining indicators and targets and output against the target.

Ms Nomfanelo Vacu, IPID Director: Investigation Advisory Services, spoke Members through performance indicators for the programme, target for the first quarter of the financial year and output against the outlined the target and the degree of variation, if was the case.

Ms Mamodishe Molope, IPID Chief Director: Compliance Monitoring and Stakeholder Management, discussed performance for the programme by outlining strategic indicators, the target for the first quarter for 2015/16 and output against the target.

Mr Kgamanyane concluded the presentation noting that there was a turnaround strategy in programme two, processes and systems improved, employee wellness improved, quality of investigators improved and there was training and re-skilling of investigators.

Mr Mhlongo noted that KZN was a very big province with a large population as well but its expenditure was the same as smaller provinces – he asked why this was the case or if IPID in KZN was under performing.

Ms Ngcongo replied the main contributor was that this was one of the regions which did not perform well in terms of conducting operations during first quarter therefore the budget not fully spent. There were also challenges with executing some administrative functions and the fact that a number of the admin staff had to be released for health purposes in the quarter and this impacted on the ability of the region to perform. Going forward, it was one of the regions making strides to recover from this state.

Mr Kgamanyane added that with the targets, he did not see anything wrong with these particular targets –KZN and the Western Cape were the best performers even though they experienced a very high workload.

Mr Maake questioned what devolution of funds meant. He thought it would be better to have the staff complement consisting of people with disabilities as a number instead of a percentage. In a previous engagement with the Directorate, he suggested the entity employ its own pathologists otherwise targets would never be met in programme two. Without its own pathologists, IPID would have to reduce its targets because it would never be met if it was too high. He asked what the status was of IPID getting its own pathologists. The Committee held the entity accountable to what it said it would do – it did not help to have targets high if there were insufficient resources to carry them out.

Mr Thokolo answered that there was a turnaround strategy implemented for Programme Two – he requested the Committee provide IPID with an opportunity to display its performance in Quarter Three around the issue of pathologists. The issue was more about being under resourced than about pathologists. Every investigator had been given a target to achieve per month and this would be monitored monthly and not quarterly.

Mr Sibanyoni said there were currently five people with disabilities employed in IPID.

Ms Ngcongo explained devolution of funds was ring fenced funds from Treasury for specific purposes – in this case it was funds only for office accommodation. This was how funds were tracked and monitored against the funds allocated in terms of office accommodation. This was why it was shown and accounted for separately as a sub-programme. Pathology was a service IPID outsourced – it did not have in-house capacity as yet for pathological services. It was usually outsourced via normal supply chain process and quotes were received and services were procured as it was needed. The Directorate intended to move away towards having a standing tender because a high volume of usage was seen so having a tender could cut out some delays.

Mr Kgamanyane said the problem was not with post-mortems but with the technical reports needed from experts before the investigation was completed.

Mr Mavunda thought that it would be good to have a legal programme cascaded down to communities as there were many who did not understand how these services worked including himself.

Ms Mmola asked exactly what delays were experienced with filling vacant and funded posts. What was meant by unforeseen expenditure of employees’ leave gratuities for officials who had left the Directorate? She also questioned the procurement of new office furniture for employees. Why was R500 000 setting in the suspense account for programme three?

Mr Sibanyoni explained that delays arose from the unapproved structure and SSA experiencing delays with pre-employment screening.

Ms Ngcongo added there were challenges in finalising the signing off on the organisational structure but going forward the process would be started much earlier for the next financial year. With the unforeseen costs for employees, there were some unexpected resignations of staff and at the time of resigning they had a lot of leave due to them – as a result, leave gratuity pay outs had to be made. Procurement of furniture was mainly for new positions. He R500 000 related to funds made for legal costs done through advanced or pre-payment held in a trust account up until the legal firm appointed completed the service needed in terms of contractual arrangements.

Ms Molebatsi noted that CPFs were the most important part of policing yet IPID was not achieving its target in this area – how did it hope to achieve the objectives? She asked how long Mr Sibanyoni had been in an acting position and how long he would still be acting. Was the shifting of funds financially correct or were there implications to the process? Were the vacant posts currently being advertised?

Mr Sibanyoni said posts had been advertised and the final batch of advertisements would come this Sunday. He had been acting in the position for a month and he could not say for much longer he would continue to be in the acting position.

Ms Ngcongo explained funds were shifted to serve commitments made in the previous financial year but suppliers submitted invoices very late. The principle was to serve commitments to suppliers once goods or services were received. It was usually not good practice to accommodate invoices from a previous financial year because it could comprise projects for the current year. Fortunately IPID could afford to pay these invoices due to savings in the first quarter stemming from vacancies and not affected projects for the current financial year. However it was not an encouraged process as there could be an instance where one could not afford to pay.

The Chairperson asked that in future, the Committee be provided with targets, performances and challenges for provinces. There were many officials suspended in the top structure and other officials in acting positions – how did this affect the ability of IPID to deliver services?

Mr Kgamanyane said that with the officials in acting positions, it could not be avoided at times as there were some people hell-bent on destroying the organisation or loyal to certain individuals. People came and went but the organisation always remained. He pledged loyalty to no one but the people of SA.

The meeting was adjourned. 

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