The Civilian Secretariat for Police (CSP) firstly presented its Strategic and Annual Performance Plans for 2015/16, noting that the main goals were aligned to ensuring that the Minister was well advised with quality and evidence-based research, policy advice and legislative support, and that the CSP was also striving to achieve a service delivery oriented police service that was accountable, and deepening public participation in the fight against crime, and enhancing accountability and transformation of SAPS. It was focusing on several pieces of legislation, particularly the White Paper on Police and Safety and Security, the South African Police Service Bill, the Animal Movement and Produce Bill, the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist Related Activities Amendment Bill, and the Firearms Control Amendment Bill. It had a total budget of R103 million, distributed as R36 million for administration, R22 million for inter-sectoral coordination, R23 million for legislation and oversight, and R22 million for civilian oversight, monitoring and evaluation.
Members were concerned that not all the top management had been vetted as yet, although it was noted that the processes had been started, and indicated their intention to get a briefing from the Director General of the Department of Safety and Security in this regard. One Member felt that the goals were not strategic enough, and that the goals and budget were not well aligned. The CSP was asked to expand upon the main difficulties it faced in its interaction with SAPS. The Committee asked for more assurance that there would not be underspending, asked how sure the CSP was that it would be granted permission for a rollover and requested a more detailed implementation plan on addressing under spending, along with regular spending reports. The staffing situation was questioned, particularly because the CSP always seemed to have people in acting positions, and the Committee was told that the Audit Committee had recommended the appointment of an additional director on fraud and corruption, that most of the vacancies were in lower positions, but that there had been a problem in matching directors' salaries against those in other public service departments.
The CSP then briefed the Committee on its response to the recent xenophobic attacks, noting that the majority of South Africans had come out strongly against the attacks on foreigners and foreign nationals. While the situation had stabilised, there was a need for a sustainable intervention that would address the underlying mindsets that motivated these attacks, in order to then try to work around the root causes and create lasting peace and security. There was a need to address the negative picture painted by xenophobic attacks of the relationship between citizens and foreign nationals, and also to effectively expose groups or individuals who were hiding their criminal acts behind xenophobic violence. Lasting impressions and legacy of social cohesion must be imprinted on everyone, with full understanding how South Africans and foreign nationals related to each other. The "We are One Humanity" campaign had been started as a long term sustainable response, underpinned by a focus on behavioral change. The vision was to have “a peaceful society where all communities and nations celebrate and cherish each others' heritage and diversity”. The objectives were to condemn, confront and combat xenophobia; promote peaceful acceptance of diversity, create a generation free of prejudice and to enable them to challenge xenophobic tendencies in society. The campaign would use successful heritage protest art and the power of creativity to capture people’s imaginations and encourage the celebration rather than fear of diversity. The various forms in which it would be rolled out, up to October 2015, were described. Provincial stakeholder engagements would condemn the attacks on foreigners and foreign nationals, create a platform for constructive discussion and seek practical roots-up participatory solutions to addressing intolerance and social instability. Mass education campaigns would seek to interrogate and deal with root causes of xenophobia, for future prevention, and stimulate behavioural change to a positive identity.
Members agreed that the root causes of xenophobia had to be established, as also investigation into criminal elements, and added that there were also issues of poverty, unemployment and unequal access to resources. Members noted that such attacks were frequently targeted against the poor who had literally entered the country on foot, rather than those who had entered legally and were residing in the suburbs. They asked how the CSP was going to deal with the psyche of South Africans blaming everything on foreigners, and also needed to look at the general reasons for movement through the whole Continent, including those crossing the Mediterranean. The African Union had protocols and governance charters that had been implemented, but some Members suggested that issues that had to be addressed included the trend to appoint Presidents for Life, the fact that xenophobia was not limited to South Africa, and general ways in which Africa was failing its people, and suggested that particularly since the AU Commissioner was a South Africa, the migration of Africans must be discussed at the AU level.
The Committee was also briefed on the Draft White Paper on Police. Post-1994, the government introduced a wide range of reform towards civilian policing that included the 1996 Constitution, the National Crime Prevention Strategy (NCPS), the SAPS Act of 1995 and the 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security. However, the significant shift increasing technology based crime and the growing sophistication amongst international criminal networks now necessitated a review of current policies and legislation. The 2014 White Paper on Police provided a policy framework for achieving the NDP vision of making the police professional, demilitarised, and building safety using an integrated approach, and building community participation in safety. It was separating the police-focused policy from a broader policy on safety and security, and provided a framework that would regularise the SAPS as part of the broader public service and enhance the effective civilian control over SAPS. Demilitarisation of the police should return policing to the ideals of the Constitution, and put into practice the NDP recommendation that a police service must display a firm commitment to carrying out its constitutional mandate and embracing a human rights culture, be responsive to diverse communities in a fair and accountable manner. Community centered policing would build on sustained community support and participation, and be responsive to the vulnerabilities and policing needs of all at a local level, including disparate communities and an active citizenry. Police conduct must be subject to regular, independent review and oversight, and the new philosophy would also thus ensure transformed curricula and teaching methods and continuous learning cultures. The Minister would set out the policy direction, the National Commissioner would oversee operational management and control of the police, and the CSP would provide policy and legislative services, whilst IPID would monitor the conduct and actions of the SAPS.
Most of the questions by Members were focused on what exactly demilitarisation meant, suggesting that it was simply not possible to remove guns from the police, yet the idea of carrying guns was fundamentally incompatible with a demilitarised service. They enquired how the rankings would be dealt with and aligned. They also discussed what community policing meant, and whether it would indeed be effective. Members also asked for the discussions on having one police force, or maintaining metro police, to be explained. They suggested that perhaps the term "demilitarisation" was the problem. Members also suggested that it was vital to deal with criminality against the policy, without which the White Paper could not be effectively implemented.
Civilian Secretariat for Police Annual Performance Plan 2015/16
Ms Reneva Fourie, Acting Secretary, Civilian Secretariat for Police, outlined the strategic goals of the Secretariat (or CSP) for the 2015/16 financial year, which were :
- Ensuring that the Minister was well advised and supported by the CSP and a service delivery oriented police service that was accountable
- Providing quality and evidence based research, policy advice and legislative support to the Minister
- Deepen public participation in the fight against crime
- Enhance accountability and transformation of SAPS.
The following police legislation was a priority
- White Paper on Safety and Security
- South African Police Service Bill
- Animal Movement and Produce Bill
- Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist Related Activities Amendment Bill
- Firearms Control Amendment Bill
The total budget was R103 million, which was divided into R36 million for administration, R22 million for intersectoral coordination, R23 million for legislation and oversight, and R22 million for civilian oversight, monitoring and evaluation.
The Chairperson said the budget did not show budget breakdowns into programmes. The strategic plan presented last year differed from the APP presented. He asked how the CSP dealt with the National Development Plan (NDP) goals of professionalisation and demilitarisation of the police. He asked if the CSP was likely to be able to complete all legislation in the current financial year.
Ms M Molebatsi (ANC) asked if the top management was vetted. She asked when the CSP was going to move away from utilisation of consultancy. She also asked if it had improved on monitoring its targets.
Mr Z Mbele (DA) asked which programmes were least staffed. He asked why under spending from last year was not stated as a risk. He asked if supply chain management caused a risk of delays in executing partnerships.
Ms D Kohler-Barnard expressed her concern that so many staff of the CSP were in acting positions. She asked where the paper on demilitarisation was. She asked why there was an increase on the goods and services budget. She questioned if the CSP had done research on compliance in police conduct.
The Chairperson asked if there was improved spending in the last quarter of the last financial year.
Mr D Twala (EFF) enquired how fair the CSP was with the resource allocation guide, especially commenting on the information that detectives had laptops that did not talk to the remainder of the system.
Ms M Mmola (ANC) asked for time lines for the processing of legislation.
Mr L Ramatlakane (ANC) said the strategic goals "lacked strategic-ness". He asked if the targets were sufficient for the Committee to support its budget. He enquired how the staff complement affected the functionality of the ability to set targets.
Ms L Mabija (ANC) questioned the reductions from the previous financial year.
Mr J Maake (ANC) asked the type of data that was said to be "inaccessible" from the SAPS.
Ms Fourie replied that the top staff were not yet vetted, but the CSP had submitted the necessary forms through to the Department of State Security. In relation to inaccessibility of data, she explained that South African Police Service (SAPS) was reluctant to give any data requested from it, and sometimes it asked who the CSP was, to be requesting it. SAPS did not want to be told it was lacking in service delivery. Although the CSP should be making analyses based on deep rooted facts, it sometimes was forced to make rather more general conclusions, because of lack of information. It was looking forward to improving relationships with SAPS going forward and it was getting support from the Presidency in this regard. Cabinet has told the CSP to bring the White Paper on Police, together with the White Paper on Safety and Security, through, and this was the reason why the CSP was being forced to use consultants. Some of the issues in the White Papers were sensitive and the Minister felt that it was better to use external people who were more objective. In addition, there simply were not enough staff in the CSP to be able to carry out all the mandates - for instance, one person was responsible for reviewing legislation and receiving all comments. The Auditor-General had recommended that it restructure its staff component and office.
Mr Hendrick Robbertze, Director: Finance, CSP, replied that 3% of R2 million was spent on consultancy in the 2014/15 financial year, and 3% in the 2015/16 financial year would be spent on consultancy. The total expenditure in the last financial year was 79%. Expenditure on administration had increased because the CSP was now using its own systems. It would be paying about R5 million to State Information Technology Agency (SITA) on computer systems, which was "ridiculous" for a small department. This had contributed to an increase in the goods and services budget. Budget on travel has increased by R800 000. It had to install its own systems as it was no longer using SAPS systems. It was addressing under-spending by meeting Chief Directors, and discussing where under spending was happening.
The Chairperson said the Committee needed additional assurances from the CSP as to what it would be doing to ensure that there would not be any under spending. It needed a more detailed implementation plan on addressing under spending and the Committee must receive a two months report on spending.
Mr Ramatlakane asked how certain the CSP was that it would have the rollover that it requested approved. He commented that the CSP had few hands available for it to deliver quality work, but there was legislation to be complied with and it was not just good enough to say it had a limited staff complement, without stating how many people it needed. He asked who determined the staff establishment, and asked if this was determined based on the core functions stated in the Act.
Mr Ramatlakane also asked for an indication of the foot print of community policing forums and community safety forums.
Ms Fourie replied that by end of May, the Infrastructure Bill would be ready and the Committee could get all the schedule of legislation from the Leader of Government Business. There was a need to clarify the distinction between SAPS and the CSP. In the White Paper on Police and that also on Safety and Security, the CSP would be engaging with SAPS on policy, because demilitarisation and professionalisation were SAPS's responsibilities. The Minister had called for a special discussion on professionalisation and demilitarisation. The Firearms Control Bill would be ready by June, and the Protection of Constitutional Democracy against Terrorist Related Activities Amendment Bill was expected by 30 June, but still needed to go to Cabinet. The Animal Movement and Produce Bill would be ready by 31 October.
Ms Molebatsi asked why the CSP did not submit quarterly reports to the Committee. She asked if it was going to fill all vacancies. She also wanted to know about the progress made in the establishment of the National Policing Board.
Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if the CSP had done research on the tactical response of the police to public order policing. She asked if there were coordinated visits with the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID) to police stations. She asked the CSP opinion on the disputed crime statistics released by SAPS and asked if it was necessary to release crime statistics on an annual basis, or rather more frequently as events occurred.
Mr Twala asked for the CSP conception of "demilitarisation of the police" and whether it meant removing guns and rifles and arming them with baton sticks. He asked if the staff establishment was derived from under spending, but commented that it was still under capacitated to deliver on its mandate. He asked if the CSP had plans on its strategic plans so that the Committee could judge its performance
Mr Mbele asked if the R17 million budget was a once off, or over the MTEF.
The Chairperson said the Committee would be inviting the Director General of the Department of State Security to brief it on vetting. SAPS may be reluctant to share information because it was classified but the CSP could not operate whilst its senior staff were not vetted.
Mr Alfred Mudau, Director: Internal Audit, CSP, replied that the audit committee started meeting in December, and it then met in February and March this year. It was full of experienced people and chaired by a professor. It has recommended the appointment of a Director on fraud and corruption. The audit committee was evaluating if the CSP was positioned to deliver its mandate.
Ms Fourie replied that all issues noted in the strategic plan had an operational plan, linked to performance agreements, and this would be submitted as an annexure to the Committee.
Mr Robbertze replied that it wrote to the National Treasury in March asking for a roll over. The R17 million was for once-off IT set up costs and R5 million was for annual sustenance of IT systems.
Ms Fourie replied that the target of spending was 99%, if the IT was delivered. Vacancies were primarily in administration and not in core delivery functions. The staff establishment was analysed by the Department of Labour, but unions were vocal that they were not consulted. If the Minister signed the staff establishment, then it would start engagements with Department of Public Services and Administration (DPSA).
Mr Luyanda Qhompo, Acting Chief Director: Monitoring and Evaluation, CSP, replied that last year's targets included provincial targets as well, but the Committee advised the CSP to focus only on national targets, which explained the apparent reduction in targets between the two years. The CSP had over-stretched itself. However, the provinces were continuing with their targets. Monitoring and evaluation in the CSP was informed by the NDP and the Safety and Security White Paper. It was looking into what were the main causes of civic claims against SAPS, and whether IPID recommendations were implemented. It was engaging SAPS in round-table discussions, and giving recommendations. He said that the CSP realised that as it moved forward, there was an ongoing need to engage with SAPS as partners, to ensure that complaints recommendations were implemented.
Ms Mmola asked why CSP did not have its own computer network instead of relying on SITA.
The Chairperson asked if the CSP was doing its core business, as it was too internally focussed.
Ms Fourie replied that the Chairperson’s analysis was correct, and that indeed the CSP had been too internally-focused, with its targets being just operational. It was keeping a watchdog function over SAPS but it needed to increase its efforts and reach. Demilitarisation was to be deferred to the discussion on the White Paper on Police. CSP did have its own virtual computer network, responsible for its own internet and e-mail domain. The revised organogram was not secret, but it was not signed by the Minister and no discussion had been started yet with DPSA.
Mr Robbertze replied that he was not sure where the difference on amounts was on Programme 3.
Mr Luyanda Qhompo, Acting Chief Director: Monitoring and Evaluation, CSP added that there were coordinated visits between CSP and IPID. The IPID Act said that responsibility for service delivery complaints would move from IPID to SAPS, and to the CSP where appropriate. There was a lot of duplication on handling complaints, involving also the Office of Public Protector and the Presidential Hotline. The CSP would be doing a customer satisfaction survey as to how it was handling service delivery complaints.
Mr Twala asked why the advertising budget was halved, because the CSP was not visible enough.
Mr Mark Rogers, Director Policy Development, CSP, replied that it would be doing research on the impact of tactical response on policing as a whole.
Mr Meshack Mogatusi, Director: Intergovernmental Planning, CSP, stated that the CSP had engaged with South African Local Government Authority (SALGA) because municipalities did not understand their role on public safety, despite legislation such as the Municipal Systems Act. There was a general reluctance by municipalities to put community safety forums in place, and some of those forums included people like traffic officers. Community safety forums were not part of their Integrated Development Plans (IDPs). MECs in Limpopo, Mpumalanga and Northwest were taking a more active role in community safety forums. There were some community policing forums, but these were not in all provinces - for instance, in KwaZulu Natal, most policing forums were not functional.
Mr M Patrick Moshibini, Chief Director: Corporate Services, CSP, replied that seven posts were vacant in administration, one post in legislation, and two in oversight. All vacant posts would be filled this year. The other challenge that the CSP had identified was that its salary levels for directors were not the same ash other government departments. There was monthly reporting on vacant posts. It had advertised the position of the Chief Financial Officer, and five people were shortlisted. Interviews would be held on 15 May
CSP Response to Xenophobia
Ms Fourie said that in the past weeks South Africans came out strongly against the attacks on foreigners and foreign nationals. While the situation had stabilised, there was a need for a sustainable intervention that would address the underlying mindsets that motivated these attacks. Addressing the root causes was essential for establishing long term peace and stability. There was need to address the negative picture painted by xenophobic attacks of the relationship between citizens and foreign nationals, effectively expose groups or individuals who were hiding their criminal acts behind xenophobic violence, as well as addressing the current situation and imprint a lasting impression and legacy on social cohesion in this country and determine how South Africans should be relating to foreigners and foreign nationals.
The "We are One Humanity" campaign was a long term sustainable response underpinned by a focus on behavioral change. The vision was to have “a peaceful society where all communities and nations celebrate and cherish each other’s heritage and diversity”. The objectives were to condemn, confront and combat xenophobia; promote peaceful acceptance of diversity, create a generation free of prejudice. It aimed to enable all people to challenge xenophobic tendencies in society, and, in so doing, to ensure stability. It would be using successful heritage protest art and the power of creativity to capture people’s imaginations, and encourage the celebration of diversity rather than fear of it, developing empathy with communities.
The implementation of this would take various forms, rolled until October 2015, that included provincial stakeholder engagements, mass education campaigns and "We are One Humanity" celebrations. Provincial stakeholder engagements would condemn the attacks on foreigners and foreign nationals, create a platform for constructive discussion and seek practical and grass-roots participatory solutions to addressing intolerance and social instability within society, as well as giving government, stakeholders and civil society a platform to clarify their policy position and engage with issues of foreign relations.
These engagements would take place on 2 May in Gauteng, 09 May in Mpumalanga, 16 May in Free State, and 23 May in KwaZulu Natal. Mass education campaigns would seek to interrogate and deal with root causes of xenophobia for future prevention, stimulate behavioural change to a positive identity. The campaign would involve Africa dialogue in society, an "Africa celebration" involving music to bring together various cultures and showcase their richness, and celebrate the unity in humanity. There would also be a "Thumbs Up" campaign showing commitment to a xenophobic free lifestyle and an opportunity for foreigners and foreign nationals to demonstrate a commitment to legal settlement.
The Chairperson said that it would be good to include the Department of Basic Education, in making xenophobia issues included in the school curriculum. Foreigners and foreign nationals must also be included in community safety forums.
Ms Molebatsi asked why the CSP was not starting with KwaZulu Natal on provincial engagements.
Mr Mbele said the campaign looked great, but there was a need to establish the real reasons and circumstances in which xenophobia happened, and also to address strongly the criminal element to it. Of course there were issues of poverty, unemployment and unequal access to resources. He asked who was going to train social workers, given that changing a person’s attitude was a difficult task. The CSP must partner with refugee and migrant societies and groups in this country for this campaign.
Ms Kohler-Barnard said the blame had always been placed on the police and army for failing to control the influx of migrants into the country. There had been reports that people who crossed the border on trains had not been subject to searches. Now everyone in the country was blaming Zimbabweans and Mozambicans, saying that they were taking their places at school and making them stand for too long in a queue at hospitals. She asked if the CSP was going to deal with the psyche of South Africans of blaming everything on foreigners.
Mr Twala said xenophobia was one of the issues that was extremely difficult to deal with. This was just a stop-gap measure and did not talk to the reasons why people were moving in the Continent, whether to South Africa or across the Mediterranean. The African Union had protocols and governance charters that had been implemented. Some presidents in the Continent had become Presidents for Life, characterised by cronyism, leading to frustration of their nationals. The institution of having Life Presidents must go. These issues must be discussed at the AU level. On the government level, there was need to sensitise collegiate countries on the problems facing South Africa. Xenophobia was not a uniquely South African problem, as it happened in Ivory Coast, with the killing of Ghanaians. Evidence that people were crossing the Mediterranean in dangerous boats was a testimony that Africa has failed its people. Particularly given that the AU Commissioner was a South African, the migration of Africans must be discussed at the AU level.
Mr Ramatlakane said the CSP needed to stabilise the current situation, mobilise communities and neutralise the crime element. The integration of displaced communities must be included in the programme, together with education, and cooperation on small businesses and skills transfer for sustainability of small businesses. The CSP had the support from the Committee in this campaign.
Ms Mabika asked the CSP to unpack the criteria for hatred used against foreign nationals, as it seemed that those who were frustrated in their home countries crossed the crocodile-infested Limpopo River and found themselves more subject to attacks than those who flew in on aeroplanes and were living in suburban areas. She asked the difference between "foreigners" and "foreign nationals".
Mr Maake said it was very funny that the same people who cheered football stars from Mozambique and Zimbabwe in the PSL, and wanted to have their photographs taken with them, were the same people who attacked foreigners when confronted with them in a home situation.
Ms Fourie replied that the CSP had taken note of the comments by Members. There were lot of interventions going on in KwaZulu Natal; hence the last provincial engagement. There was indeed a class dimensions in the attacks against foreigners, as it was only the poor who suffered. "Foreign nationals" were South African citizens who were not born in South Africa. "Foreigners" were non-SA citizens.
Draft White Paper on Police briefing
Mr Mark Rogers, Director: Policy Development, SCP, said that the post apartheid government introduced a wide range of reforms towards civilian policing that included the 1996 Constitution, the National Crime Prevention Strategy (NCPS), the SAPS Act of 1995 and the 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security. There had been significant shifts as there had been an increase in technology based crime and the growing sophistication amongst international criminal networks that necessitated a review of current policies and legislation. The 2014 White Paper on Police provided a policy framework for achieving the NDP vision of making the police professional, demilitarising the police, building safety using an integrated approach and building community participation in safety. The Paper represented a strategic shift by separating a police focused policy from a broader policy on safety and security, and provided a framework that will regularise the SAPS as part of the broader public service and enhance the effective civilian control over SAPS.
Demilitarisation of the police should return policing to the ideals of the Constitution, and recommendations of the NDP that a police service must display a firm commitment to carrying out its constitutional mandate and embracing a human rights culture, and be a police responsive to diverse communities in an approach that was fair and accountable. Community centered policing would build on sustained community support and participation, and be responsive to the vulnerabilities and policing needs of all at a local level, including disparate communities, and build an active citizenry vital for sustainable safety delivery. Police conduct must be subject to regular, independent review and oversight, thereby building legitimacy and trust. A new philosophy of policing would require a transformed curricula and teaching methodologies, and a culture of continuous training and learning must be built. The institutional arrangements were that the Minister set out the policy direction, the National Commissioner would oversee the operational management and control of the police service, in line with national policing policy, CSP would provide policy and legislative services, while IPID would be responsible for monitoring the conduct and actions of the SAPS.
Ms Molebatsi asked how the CSP was going to deal with ranks such as Colonel, General and Lieutenant General as against those of Inspector, Superintendent and Chief Superintendent. She asked where the command control would be.
Mr Mbele said there there were no emphatic outlines on specialised police in relation to international benchmarks, especially syndicate based issues and this needed to be addressed so that the final White Paper did not have any gaps.
Ms Kohler-Barnard said there was a need for regulations for community policing forums. Those who might try to join were sometimes told that they could not because they were regarded as British, despite having lived here for more than 50 years. She did not see the provincial government oversight over SAPS, which also generated into the single police versus metro police debate. The metro police were paid by rates from people living in those communities, and removing the metro police meant that no one would enforce metro by-laws.
Mr Twala said he was still not convinced on demilitarisation of the police and what it entailed. He asked whether it meant removing ranks, guns and badges? Removing guns meant demilitarising, but this could not be done because of the nature and extent of crime in South Africa. However, having a gun made the police think of the gun as a second option. He asked whether the country was at the stage of discussing whether to disarm the police? He said that it was impossible, however, to speak of demilitarisation without removing that gun and the psyche of the man behind the gun. Previously, he quipped, the police used to make an appointment to arrest a person, escort him in public transport, then ask him to buy cigarettes along the way and run away. This was civilian policing.
Mr Ramatlakane said an interesting discussion was to ensue. He asked what was so redundant in the 1996 NCPS and the 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security and whether this really necessitated a review of them overall, or whether this review was rather done to add amendments to them rather than writing a new White Paper entirely. On the single system versus retaining metro police, the understanding was that the metro would be part of SAPS at a municipal level, doing the work of crime prevention. The other interesting issue was the suggestion that demilitarising equalled removing guns. The mindset of the police was inherited from a militarised police into a service. 90% of them still had this mentality but demilitarising, to his mind, rather suggested the police valuing the community as the great source of information. The military ranks contributed to this, as they showed power and this was the problem that people have with army deployment, because the army negotiated with the gun. Militarisation was a wrong concept in the policing environment. A General in the police and a General in the army were different. In moving towards a people-oriented policing aligned to this White Paper, the main issue was how to turn around the mindset of the 130 000 police officers. The CSP was skirting around the concept of demilitarisation without making it clear what it intended exactly to do. Community centres must ensure that there was a relationship between SAPS and the community.
Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if the police were to take over the metro, and if so, were they going to be taught how to direct traffic? Furthermore, she pointed out that traffic officers were trained on municipal by laws.
Mr Twala said the Constitution recognised various level of governance, and asked at what level the metro police officer would start earning, given that metro police earned more than a constable.
Ms Mabika asked who was going to draw the implementation plan between SAPS and CSP.
Mr Maake said that as "a village boy" himself, he could not visualise the type of police envisaged in this paper, in a country where police were shot every day, tsotsis were walking around armed with rifles and police stations were robbed by tsotis. The simple issues was removing the term "demilitarisation". It would, he asserted, be suicidal to demilitarise the police by removing guns, because the type of criminals in the country needed to be addressed with "brutality and nothing else". There was a need to deal with criminality against the police, otherwise it was going to take more than 50 years to implement this White Paper. He felt sorry for the CSP in its task of trying to explain demilitarisation.
Ms Fourie replied that there was nothing that stopped the CSP from learning from the Committee. The CSP would be happy to accept Mr Ramatlakane's and Mr Twala's suggestions, to assist in policy formulation. There was a need to engage with an active citizenry on human rights abuses by the police, especially against the poor. The CSP was gently stepping around concepts so as to take everybody’s view into consideration.
Mr Rogers added that the 1998 White Paper on Safety and Security was a framework for five years and the current review looked at how developments have changed the situation over time. On the NCPS, the current review looked on the challenge in implementing a multi-layered approach to crime prevention as departments failed to synergise in fighting crime. The CSP did not discard the core principles of those White Papers but did look at changes in the current environment. SAPS would develop the implementation plan, while the CSP would monitor and evaluate the progress.
Ms Molebatsi said the military ranks were introduced to enforce discipline in SAPS, but lack of discipline had in fact increased in the police. She asked if demilitarisation would also then talk to discipline of SAPS members.
Mr Mbele asked how the CSP could strengthen accountability on SAPS when legislation imposed obligations on SAPS - for instance IPID reports on being threatened by SAPS or the CSP not given information by SAPS.
Ms Kohler-Barnard quipped that military ranks were instituted because Bheki Cwele wanted to be called "General".
Mr Ramatlakane asked if the White Paper would be aligned to the NDP, or would look at the next five years.
The Chairperson said the White Paper must deal with resource allocation on advantaged and disadvantaged police stations. It must address equal resource allocation across the spectrum.
Mr Rogers replied that questions of discipline need to be researched, as also the culture and subcultures in SAPS. The CSP would be doing an intensive study on the effect of ranks. The White Paper would be aligned to the NDP but would constantly be reviewed.
Mr Ramatlakane said the CSP must engage with the Committee before conducting a study on subcultures in the police, because the methodology chosen would have an effect on results to be achieved.
The meeting was adjourned.
- Civilian Secretariat for Police Annual Performance Plan 2015/16; responses to xenophobia & Draft White Paper on Police: Civilian Secretariat on Police briefing 1
- Civilian Secretariat for Police Annual Performance Plan 2015/16; responses to xenophobia & Draft White Paper on Police: Civilian Secretariat on Police briefing 2
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