Report back by Workgroups

Meeting report

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE
7 May 2002
REPORT BACK BY WORK GROUPS

[This is a transcript of the meeting, produced by the Public Accounts Committee Secretariat.]

Present:

African National Congress

Mr L Chiba
Mr P Gerber
Mr DM Gumede
Mr BW Kannemeyer
Ms PK Mothoagae
Mr BZ Nair
Mr VG Smith

Democratic Party

Mr NS Bruce
Mr M Lowe

New National Party

Mr F Beukman (Chairperson)

APOLOGIES: Ms NL Hlangwana, Dr GW Koornhof, And Ms C Dudley

In attendance from the Office of the Auditor-General: Mr P Mosaka, Mr C Botes, Mr A van Wyk, and Ms L Less

Decisions

There will not be a hearing on SAPS.

The hearing on the Legal Aid Board will go ahead next week Wednesday.


The hearing on the intelligence services will go ahead once the report is tabled.

The hearing on Labour is postponed to 5 June and the one on Public Works is postponed to 7 august.

B. Matters arising

2.1 Group one will table the Correctional services resolution on Tuesday for adoption by plenary on Wednesday.

2.2 The Committee will undertake a visit to the harbour and to Cape Town international airport to interact with the SARS officials and look at their systems. The Committee to decide on the date for the visit, the number of members and finalise the terms of reference.

C. Deliberations

1. Group report back

1.1 Group one: Mr L Chiba

SAPS - Mr Blaas attended the group meeting this morning and handed over the work that he was dealing with. He informed the group that Mr Uys would replace him as an alternate member. The group recommends that there be no hearing on SAPS because there was a hearing in 2001 and they are submitting quarterly reports to the Committee.

Legal Aid Board - The hearing should go ahead. The opinion is a disclaimer and the situation with the controls is unsatisfactory.

Public Protector - It has a qualified opinion. The group still has to send questions and will decide on the basis of the responses whether to have a hearing.

Human Rights Commission - The group received the report today and still has to formulate questions.

President's Fund - There was a concern by the group about whether all donations have been recorded. Subsequently the AG's office confirmed that all donations were recorded.

Guardian Fund - Responses were received to some of the questions sent. However, there are other questions which still have to be sent.

Commission on Gender Equality - The group will write a letter to inquire what progress has been made on the appointment of the Internal Auditor.

Resolutions - The group will present the draft resolution on Correctional Services to the Committee next week Tuesday for adoption on Wednesday.

Mr Lowe added that the group membership has decreased and raised concern with the workload.

1.2 Group two: Mr B Kannemeyer

The group was busy preparing for hearings on Parliament and Water Affairs and Forestry tomorrow.

Ms Dudley indicated that she will be joining the group but she is not going to take part in the hearing tomorrow because she is busy with something else.

1.3 Group three: Mr D Gumede

The group is concerned with the decreased membership.

The group considered replies on Public Enterprises, Environmental Affairs and Tourism and Trade and Industry and will finalise evaluating them next week.

The group will consider the SARS Treasury Reply together with the SARS 2001 annual report, which would be tabled in four weeks time. The group proposes that the Committee undertake a visit to the harbor and Cape Town international airport to check on the systems in place and what problems they are experiencing. The Committee should also meet the SARS board of directors.

Next week the group will be preparing for a hearing on Transport, RAF etc. and it is proposed that the hearing on Labour be postponed to 5 June because replies have not been received and it will be too much work for one day if the hearings were to take place the same day. The hearing on Public Works should be moved to 7 August.

2. Preparation for hearing

2.1 Water Affairs and Forestry

Mr Kannemeyer informed the Committee that Water Affairs and Forestry consists of the main vote and three trading accounts. The group is assessing replies and finalising questions. Four members of the Portfolio Committee on Water Affairs and Forestry and the chairperson joined the group during its preparation. There are PERSAL related issues and problems of duplicate payment and overstaffing.

2.2 Parliament

The preparation on Parliament has been completed. The issue of legality arose as to whether a committee of Parliament can hold Parliament to account. The group will take direction from plenary. The group also got information that it was the first time Parliament will be appearing before SCOPA. In terms of the Constitution and the rules Parliament can call anyone and all AG reports are referred to SCOPA for consideration and report. The report of Parliament was referred to the Committee and the Committee has been interacting with Parliament. There was nothing in writing that has been submitted raising this concern.

Mr Gumede said that a distinction should be made between Parliament and its management. Mr Bruce pointed out that Parliament has got two personas, which are management and the committees. Ms Mothoagae added that legislatures have been calling management of legislatures to appear before them.

Mr Nair said that the issue is the separation of powers between the administrative wing and the legislative wing and added that SCOPA cannot interfere with the legislative part but can inquire how funds are being managed.

Mr Botes informed the Committee that the Secretary to Parliament appeared before SCOPA in 1997.

The chairperson said that the issue was raised informally with the researcher of SCOPA and nothing in writing has been submitted and added that the hearing should go ahead tomorrow and if there is a problem it will be addressed then.

Mr Kannemeyer proceeded to brief the Committee on the issues that will be dealt with during the hearing on Parliament and said that the Committee should get a timeline on when the new PFMA for Parliament will be tabled. Other issues includes the fraud prevention plan, internal controls, salary fraud, rollover funds, constituency allowances, financing of staff of political parties, catering stores, budgeting control and waste paper management.

3. General

The Committee adopted the minutes of 24 and 30 April.

The chairperson reported that with regard to the matter of Transnet refusing the AG's office access to information it was discussed previously and the AG's office is in the process of getting a legal opinion. The Committee will wait for the legal opinion from the AG's office and thereafter decide on a course of action.

The chairperson further reported that he has written a letter to the Speaker's office inquiring about the tabling of the intelligence report. Mr Lowe responded that the Committee should go ahead with the hearing because the legal opinion is available. Mr Smith added that the Committee should inquire about the tabling of the report and if it is tabled the hearing should go ahead.

Mr Benjamin informed the Committee that the scope of the audit on the intelligence services is restricted and the auditors are not allowed to go deep into the issues. The auditors do not get access to information on the payment of informers. It was suggested earlier that SCOPA should meet with the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence (JSCI) to discuss this matters. In that regard SCOPA's role will be severely limited.

Mr Lowe informed the Committee that in the public sector use is made of a letter of undertaking and asked if it cannot be done in this case.

The chairperson said that Mr Lowe's suggestion should be taken on board when the Committee meets the JSCI.

The meeting adjourned at 11:35.