Department of Sport and Recreation & Boxing South Africa on their 2013/14 Annual Reports

Meeting report

Opening Remarks by Chairperson
The Chairperson opened the proceedings with a moment of silent prayer and thereafter welcomed the Department of Sport and Recreation (SRSA) and Boxing South Africa (BSA).

After a round of introduction by Committee Members, the Deputy Minister (DM) of Sports and Recreation, Mr Gert Oosthuizen introduced the two delegations from SRSA and BSA and tendered an apology on behalf of the Minister of Sports and Recreation, Mr Fikile Mbalula.  Deputy Minister Oosthuizen explained that Minister Mbalula was in fact in Parliament as well on that day but was attending a cabinet meeting.

The Chairperson said BSA would be allowed to present first as it was an SRSA entity.

The Chairperson said the Committee had noted that though there had been some progress in turning BSA around there remained challenges for instance targets BSA had set itself had not been met: Alongside that and surprisingly so BSAs expenditure had far exceeded its budget allocation. Therefore as BSA would be presenting it had to clarify those challenges.

Presentation by Boxing South Africa
Ms Muditambi Ravele, BSA Chairperson, took the Committee through the report. She said the only additions to the report were its colour and the last slide but otherwise the Committee had the same report she would be reading from.

Introduction: Leadership
BSA had originally had a board of seven members where three members then resigned leaving only four remaining. With the passing away of one member within the remaining four the board could not quorate.
There had been a gap before between BSA and the South African National Amateur Boxing Association (SANABO) but the two entities had since worked closer together to ensure that their processes were aligned so as to refine the graduation of boxers from amateur to professional boxing.

Strategic Overview: Vision and Mission
Ms Ravele said BSA was the leading boxing association in the African continent.

Overview of boxing activities
Ms Ravele said one of the challenges with boxers in the country was managing of their finances and the understanding that they were the employers of their managers and or promoters as their thinking was the opposite of that. Amongst the modules in the life-skills training rolled out to boxers was that of image building and how boxers were to communicate with the media, commitment to training time and so on.
The more licenses were granted the more revenue BSA gathered to assist with its day to day operations.
Floyd Mayweather’s conduct in his interviews assisted in the branding and marketing of boxing in the country and abroad, and also showed other boxers that as boxers they were the employers.

Programme performance
Ms Ravele said BSA was serious struggling with the marketing, branding, communications and events coordination programme. The major stumbling block there were finances as BSA currently had no marketing manager and could not afford one at that moment. Amongst the alternatives BSA was exploring the idea of outsourcing that function so that marketing companies would pay their own way through the branding they would bring to BSA.

Compliance and enforcement
Gyms were quite important to the proliferation of boxers were currently some were training in garages, schools and generally in places that were not of boxing gym standards. In that regard BSA were currently negotiating with provincial managers and municipalities to provide or maintain gyms properly in communities especially in rural areas and disadvantaged communities.

Marketing, Branding, Communication and Events Coordination
Minister Mbalula had established a Committee to lobby so that boxing would have returned to television (TV) screens across the nation in SA.

Challenges
Ms Ravele said when one looked at the Boxing Act and regulations and what that mandate expected from BSA compared to the funding the entity received from state; the two aspects did not speak to each other at all. A costing exercise that BSA had done two years ago that encompassed carrying out the entire mandate of the Act and regulations had costed the entities budget around R46 million.  Moreover the Act also limited BSA in terms of options to raise revenue for itself, especially where promoters sometimes challenged the entity when it wanted to take the broadcasting rights back and the fact that part of the Indaba resolutions were: that BSA had to review all commercial rights as apportioned by the Act and to repackage them. 

The lack of fully fledged provincial structures affected BSAs National operations as it found itself doing provincial operations. The previous Act had provided for provincial commissions which assisted BSA to run provincial fights so that BSA National could focus on regulatory issues, National and International fights. BSA with SRSA were looking at the regulations so that they could set-up provincial Committees even if the Act did not provide for them, so that BSA could go back to focusing in its core mandate. 
BSA was currently using its staff and provincial managers to evaluate boxing facilities and tournaments because of lack of inspectors. That situation was not ideal and within the resolutions of the Indaba that aspect was being looked into.

Poor staff capacity in terms of both quality and the numbers at the BSA office.

Ms Ravele believed that if BSA could get boxing rebroadcasted that would solve most of BSAs marketing and branding woes as well as reaching most of the boxing support community.

Remedies and Action plans
The review of the appointment of provincial managers was to clarify the confusion between them being recorded as service providers but being paid as BSA employees.

BSAs own audit Committee had reported that BSA had to restructure its finance and operations Departments as they were key to all functions of BSA.

BSA had previously used the boxing regulations as an agreement with its licensees but since problems arose from such an arrangement where licensees did not follow the procedures as outlined, BSA had realised that the verbal agreement held little water. BSA was currently saying that from the 2014/15 financial year licenses would be granted with a signed agreement wherein the licensee would apply the rules and comply with the regulations.

BSA was requesting the Committees support as it already saw that it could not meet all its challenges alone, it also pleaded that the Committee assist it in getting funding that would be in line with the Act and its structural function as an entity. Lastly it asked the Committee to assist it lobby for the amendment of its establishing Act and regulations since there was a need for such action and the fact that it was hamstrung in moving with the changes in International boxing.
 
The Chairperson said BSA was appearing before the select Committee in the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) and that it would expect BSA to be talking to the current situation in provinces since the members’ mandate were to ensure that provincial interests were covered in National Government. She further suggested that SRSA be allowed to also present so that there would be a single round of discussion.

Briefing by the Department of Sport and Recreation (SRSA)  
Dr Bernadus Van der Spuy, SRSA Chief Director: Strategic Support, took the Committee through the presentation.

Performance information by programme
From the 1 April 2014 SRSA functioned under a new budget structure that had been approved by the National Treasury (NT). The revision of the structure was to ensure that it was aligned to the National Sport and Recreation Plan (NSRP).

Sub-programme: Community Mass participation
Dr Van der Spuy requested that Ms Onke Mjo, SRSA Chief Director: Mass Participation, should be allowed to elaborate on the challenges that SRSA was meeting with provinces in terms of compliance with Sport Grant performance reports.

Since SRSA had received an unqualified opinion, it realised that it would be a feat to maintain that standard.

Dr Van der Spuy then reiterated his request that Ms Mjo be allowed to elaborate on the support to provinces that SRSA was giving.

Ms Mjo said SRSA transferred annually to provinces and in 2013/14 it had transferred R494 million to them. Those funds were regulated through the conditional grant framework which requested provinces to do specific programmes. The grant performance reports from provinces had not been submitted timeously and their quality was also not of a quality that would enable SRSA to know exactly what had been achieved in each quarter. Another challenge was that sometimes reports were actually non-existent though there money would have been spent. That affected the SRSAs AR in terms of that target. SRSA had in that regard started monitoring and doing verifications within the provinces through its audit capacity making visits to provinces before the Auditor- General South Africa (AGSA) went to provinces. For the first time in the past five years AGSA had audited four provinces with a view of tracking Division of Revenue Act (DoRA) funding.

The DM said only three provinces were contributing towards sport and recreation (S and R) from their provincial fiscus. Seven provinces depended on the SRSA conditional DoRA grant without budgeting for S and R. The DM said as NCOP members the Committee had to be alerted to such.

The Chairperson asked for the names of the provinces.

Ms Mjo said KwaZulu Natal (KZN), Western Cape (WC), Eastern Cape (EC) and North West (NC) were budgeting for S and R and the other outstanding five not mentioned depended entirely on the grant which was a big risk because if the grants were to be ended that would mean there would be no sport in those provinces. That trendy had been on-going for the past five years and in instances like Gauteng which used to have voted funds for S and R but when the provincial treasury (PT) noticed the contributions made through the DoRA it had withdrawn those voted funds and were prioritised for other purposes.

The Chairperson opened the floor for questions and comments from Committee Members.

Discussion
Mr M Khawula (IFP, KwaZulu-Natal) extended the Committee’s condolences to BSA over the passing of female boxer, Phindile Mwelase. He asked what the actual issues were with the broadcasting challenges between BSA and the South African Broadcasting Cooperation (SABC).
Could BSA speak about its organogram and the salaries of the officials at the entity compared to its budget and commented that those titles raised expectations. He asked whether that did not contribute to why it spent a lot on salaries. He asked why there were no figures on the SRSA financial performance report. He recalled that the Committee had complained about the poor monitoring by SRSA on the provinces and that fiscal dumping was on going in provincial SRSAs towards the end of the financial year. He asked when National SRSA would sort out those issues in provinces.

Ms L Dlamini (ANC, Mpumalanga) asked that BSA should communicate with the Committee on happenings so that it should not reference the media and that it could also make informed statements as well.
She noted that SRSA had not spoken to the Africa Cup of Nations (AfCoN) 2013 tournament which she believed fell under the 2013/14 financial year. Moreover SRSA and the South African Confederation and Olympics Committee (SASCOC) had all turned a corner as evidenced by both National teams and individual athletes. She requested SRSA to focus on maintaining its clean audit.
She asked where BSA had lost focus and whether there was actually a board of directors for BSA and where then BSA received its mandate if the board was non-existent.  As far as she was concerned the core function for BSA was programme 3, branding, marketing, communication and events coordination but it seemed that the entire budget went to employee remuneration with no budget for that programme. Possibly that could be a result of a structure that was not in line with BSAs budget as it had overspent in all its programmes. Certainly SRSA would have to pay much more attention to BSA.

Ms T Mpambo-Sibhukwana (DA, Western Cape) hoped that in future Sports Awards the legacy of deceased sporting greats would be remembered and commemorated through awards and commemorations.
She asked how BSA was reaching rural areas as far as marketing and branding was concerned.
What social development impact where the two bodies having in terms of using boxing to fight substance and drug abuse.
Was boxing awareness and marketing targeted specifically at men or was it gender equitable, and what challenges had BSA met in making it equitable?
There was a contradiction in BSAs plea for an increase in funding when it had a wasteful expenditure of R182 622 in the year under review.
What criteria was SRSA using in allocating grants to provinces and what was the monitoring tool being used to track those funds.
Could the two bodies also speak to their recruitment processes for staff?
Possibly it was time for SA to standardize the formulation of board members.

Ms T Mampuru (ANC, Limpopo) asked if SRSA could consider establishing sporting facilities were Members of Parliament (MPs) stayed. She also commented that SRSA had presented in June that some of the provinces were not complying with the mandate of SRSA and she had followed up with her provincial Member of Executive Council (MEC) and would continue to do so, but she found it disappointing that SRSA was still reporting on the same issues when it had even piloted a club system study.

The Chairperson asked when Ms Ravele had become the official Chairperson of BSA.

Ms Ravele replied that she had been acting Chairperson from August 2013 and had been appointed Chairperson from May 2014.

The Chairperson continued that there remained a lot of work to be done at BSA and that though the entity had not met its targets she hoped that Ms Ravele would turn BSA around as it had supplied the Committee with a turnaround strategy. Moreover the Human Resources (HR) plan that had not been aligned to BSAs structures was an issue. She asked how BSA managed to overspend with no hope of covering those costs from any further grants.
She thanked SRSA for its strides in getting a clean audit and reiterated the Committee’s sentiment that that could be maintained. Additionally she noted that the vacancy rate remained unusually high at SRSA even though it had funding constraints. 
Confusing the Chairperson was what the DM meant when he said only four provinces budgeted for S and R when in fact there were equitable share formula grants for S and R in provinces. Could that be clarified?

Ms Mjo said it seemed that PT looked at the monies received for S and R from National Department and would then decide that the grant would be enough and therefore S and R would not require additional funding from the provincial fiscus. That was not a sustainable reliance in that SRSA had for example had transferred R88 million to Gauteng. That PT had then decided S and R had had enough funding for them to run the programmes and had alternatively redirected the grant from SRSA to other priorities. The risk occurred when the grant was no longer there, because there had to be a standard framework for maintaining the allocations to the respective Departments. 

The Chairperson said she understood that approach by provinces but given the backlog and amount of work that still remained to be done in the rural areas; a conditional grant could never be enough. Certainly the Minister would have to think of alternative ways of dealing with those issues.
Who was driving the programmes of the Department if the vacancy rate was so high and would it reach its targets?
 
Ms Ravele apologised for the oversight in reporting over Ms Mwelase.

The Minister had appointed a new board of directors for BSA by May 2014 and that it had been fully functional by June 2014. The issues that Ms Ravele had raised as challenges with references to the Act and a need to possibly review it spoke to BSAs organogram. To that extant the Act stipulated the appointment of a Chief Executive Officer (CEO) and therefore BSA could not simply appoint a senior manager instead. Similarly with a Chief Financial Officer (CFO), moreover the state and AGSA also expected that official to be appointed by BSA which was an additional salary together with appointing an HR manager. That was the reason behind such a high budget for salaries only there were however, areas where the organogram could be cut which was why BSA was reviewing its strategic plan (SP).  Those areas of course would affect the efficient running of the entity but the cuts were in line with the budget constraints and that was why Ms Ravele had alluded to outsourcing marketing instead of appointing a marketing manager.
In terms of BSAs core function being marketing and branding of boxing, that also referred back to what the Act stipulated against the allocation, but BSA was a regulatory body that regulated and licensed promoters. The promoters through the Act and regulations took away most of the marketing and branding that BSA could be doing. Promoters had to organise tournaments, then managers had contracts with boxers and then again the promoters would also have contracts between them and boxers. That left very little for BSA to sell through marketing. A possible solution to that conundrum that BSA was looking into was negotiating with promoters again, so that it could have three events in a year where the promoters would market and sell those on behalf of BSA. Therefore the review of the Act would only be useful when BSA started with addressing the commercial value issues within that law and how to divide what went to promoters and what remained with the entity in terms of the revenue.
In terms of boxing reaching rural areas and its social development impact through addressing substance and drug abuse in youth was through the close relations that BSA had with SANABO, since that organisation was responsible for amateur boxing. The link between the two bodies was through the transition from amateur to professional boxing and Ms Ravele would certainly raise the issue with SANABO of possibly partnering with the Department of Social Development (DSD) in that regard.
Indeed the slow pace of marketing boxing was affecting female participation in the sport since some female boxers struggled to get challenges in their weight groups as there were very few female boxers currently. Alternatively female officials were progressing quite well in that Ms Sylva Mokaila from the NW was doing quite well internationally and there were female promoters as well. Moreover the BSA board also had two females.
The fruitless and wasteful expenditure was one issue BSA was trying to address which was why it had requested the assistance of SRSAs CFO to be able to put systems in place for better monitoring. Additionally BSA was internally setting up its own system that Mr Sello Maake, Senior Manager, BSA would be talking to as part of BSA replies.

Ms Ravele concurred that BSA had over targeted and that going forward the entity would develop manageable targets.

Mr Khulile Radu, Board member, BSA said since he was part of the new board, it had to be understood that they had inherited an organisation in distress. Indeed the board was doing its best to turnaround the situation and he was pleased by Ms Mampuru’s declaration that she had and would continue to speak to her provincial Government and he emphasised that that was what was needed from the Committee, so that provincial Governments could assist with the development of sports.
Female boxing was relatively new in SA sports but it was growing for example in the NW there were boxers like Rita Mrwebi. Noni Tenge had been flying the flag for SA for some time as the leading female boxer in the country. BSA had since tried to rank female boxers according to weight divisions, categories in terms of future potential and experience. Mr Radu promised that in the next five years women boxing would be on the mouths of boxing followers. In the EC the 9 of August, which was Women’s day was annually commemorated with boxing tournaments.
Boxing did take place in rural areas as Mr Radu had attended in the preceding week tournaments in Stutterheim, Qumbu and Cathcart, EC.
For the new board at BSA the elephant in the house was the absence of SABC, since it was a recognised standard that TV networks made boxing all over the world.  Broadcasting rights for every board in boxing regulators across the planet were the jewel in the crown, which was why one of the Indaba resolutions had been that BSA as a regulator would hold onto broadcasting rights and would deal with promoters as they came.  

Ms Ravele added that in the previous board where she had been a board member, BSA had agreed with SABC to sign a broadcasting deal. Whilst thrashing out the issues on the contract between the two organisations one boxing promoter took both organisations to court. That promoters challenge was still being thrashed out in court, moreover an Indaba resolution which that promoter was part of, was that BSA should go and negotiate a broadcasting schedule with SABC and Supersport and any other broadcaster including e-TV. BSA had embarked on that process having received that mandate from the Indaba and in March 2014 BSA had held a workshop with promoters since by then SABC had agreed on a schedule of programmes with BSA. Immediately thereafter that process stalled again as the challenge from that promoter surfaced again but what BSA picked up then was that the promoter had had a contract with SABC which he still wanted to pursue. SRSAs DG had then taken over that issue with BSA taking a back seat, but about three/four weeks ago Minister Mbalula had met with SABC and BSA wherein he announced that he would be setting up a working Committee to address that broadcasting stalemate.

Mr Maake reiterated that BSA was working closely with SRSAs CFO in terms of the finance and HR units in the entity to set-up systems. The biggest challenge that had contributed to BSA irregular, fruitless and wasteful expenditure had been that BSA had not had a supply chain management (SCM) system. There had been no dedicated SCM unit headed by a person knowledgeable in terms of the legal requirements therein like the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA), NT and SCM regulations. The CFO with Mr Maake were busy putting together that SCM system for BSA; similarly with HR, they were trying to rework the structure of BSA to focus on important areas which BSA was supposed to deliver on, to meet the challenges therein, but that depended on the cooperation between BSA and SRSA.

DM Oosthuizen said the turnaround strategy that SRSA was bearing fruits and in the 2014/15 financial year the AR of the Department would show that. As he was uncertain whether the Committee had the Indaba final report with its resolutions he would ensure as a matter of urgency that SRSA would send all those documents soon. In those two days of honest talking that broadcasting component as visibly vested rights and all that that contained; after members had read the report of the Indaba and resolutions that would become clear. 
He ascertained the Committee that when SASCOC would be coming before the Committee, SRSA would ensure that SANABO would be prioritised in that briefing so that the programmes of SANABO as a federation under SASCOC would be shared with the Committee.

Ms Mjo said since the last time SRSA had briefed the Committee it had taken action in terms of monitoring the use of the conditional grant in provinces. Firstly there was a penalty system that SRSA applied which was not aimed at withholding and eventually stopping the grant for non-compliant provinces, but was about delaying the grant so that SRSA could ensure that there would be compliance eventually before any transfers were made. That clarity was important because when SRSA applied that system stringently and stopped transferring totally that became problematic as well. SRSA had a support programme that every month and according to the programmes provided for in the conditional grant framework, all the coordinators therein met on matters to do with school sport, community sport and sporting academies programmes so that everyone from National to provincial to district had the same capacity in terms of implementing the programmes needing implementation. Furthermore SRSA had roped in its internal audit unit to visit provinces and do verification of programme roll-out both in terms of narrative performance and financial monitoring. There were improvements in implementation; reporting and performance in some provinces and with the monitoring visits SRSA still found that in some instances programmes were not being implemented optimally. With better efficiency in monitoring such elements would be eliminated since there were both noticed and surprise visits every quarter because though there were the business and action plans from provinces, surprise visits made SRSA National highly unlikeable. Indeed that change was uncomfortable for provinces but SRSA believed it assisted greatly in that the work would need to be continuously progressing as no one knew when National SRSA would be visiting.

Ms Mjo recalled that some Members of the Committee had been part of the joint meeting that SRSA had with the Department of Basic Education (DBE) where SRSA had developed a very strong approach combined with DBE on the school sport programme after that meeting. The DM of DBE had at the last joint meeting committed to ensuring that there would even be budgeting in support of the school sport programme. At a local level where school sport was not happening there was that kind of commitment that the two Departments would collaborate even more from 2015 onwards in terms of rolling out those programmes. In the previous AR the Committee would recall that a lot of work in terms of school sport had being observed from district, provincial to National championship but had not been prevalent at a local school and interschool competition level. Therefore SRSA had had those meetings and had gone beyond there to the clusters and joint task teams of both DBE and SRSA in ensuring that more was happening at a local school level.      
AfCoN 2013 had occurred in the 2012/13 financial year and had been reported on in that years AR.
In the past the grants had been indeed transferred through the equitable share formula which had made it difficult for provinces with a rural populace and land scape to be able to implement the programmes of SRSA. That had since changed with the approval of NT where SRSA had taken R10 million from KZN and Gauteng so that Northern Cape (NC), Limpopo, EC and Free State could bolster their allocations. The provinces involved had been consulted and had agreed that if the equitable share formula was still utilized NC would continue to receive less funding.  

Dr Van der Spuy apologised for not submitting a financial statements report as that report was there in the AR and a summary presentation of that had been done as well, but that certainly would be forwarded to the Committee urgently.
Looking at the AR of 2013/14 the vacancy rate was alarming but as indicated in SRSAs presentation that that financial year was when the Department had started its organisational structure. SRSA had therefore stalled the filling of vacancies at that time pending the approval of its new structure so that it could advertise posts in line with the new structure. As that approval had not happened SRSA had then identified critical posts which it had started filling so that the 2014/15 AR would show a different perspective on the vacancy rate.
Indeed SRSA had noted red flag areas in terms of controls and that was work in progress as the Department ensured it addressed those issues.
The lament for sport facilities in the MP villages was noted but the use of such when they were rolled out would also be closely monitored.

The Deputy Minister said SRSA had noted the lament from the Committee on issues of sport being reported to the Committee before they were read about in print media.
SRSA was continuously advocating for a better slice of the pie in that physical education had to become a stand-alone subject with qualified teachers even though it was aware of the cost constraints. Certainly sport on a Wednesday and Saturday morning in and between competing schools was where the talent would be unearthed and transformation affected.
On the conditional grant the SRSA would in the MinMec continually argue that it was simply not enough for National Government in terms of the conditional grant framework to give money to provinces so that they could in turn reprioritise those monies, of course considering the various challenges in the provinces.
Provinces that were budgeting for S and R over and above the conditional grants were doing more in that regard and they would be distinguishable in the future and it was at that time that SA would be asking why the disparities between provinces though the country would have been aware and were alerted by SRSA right from the beginning over the skewedness of the situation. It would really then assist SRSA for the Committee to advocate with the Department, that those disparities be addressed quickly in terms of the use of the conditional grants.  
In terms of school sport and its necessity there had to be an acknowledgement of the challenges in terms of sport infrastructure at schools. The country had inherited a system where a lot of schools did not have sport facilities but SA was in a position to now say that when DBE was rolling out a new school that had to have a sporting facility. In the EC and KZN that had already started and it did not have to be a big soccer field, it could be a combi-court but anything to SRSA view was better than nothing.
The bigger challenge was that though there was the Municipal Infrastructure Grant (MIG) funds with a component ring fenced for S and R facilities. Since that was not always used for sporting facilities SRSA was arguing that a consolidated fund of that ring fenced MIG should be given to it so that it could go to the various communities in provinces to firstly; renovate, maintain and roll-out facilities aggressively against the NSRP mandate. The challenge was to find a method of getting all those funds consolidated so that SRSA could give assurances that it would be able to spend it on the NSRP to address that very backlog that the Chairperson had alluded to. Secondly with the MIG SRSA would have to recognise that the size of a metro or district municipality would determine its MIG allocation where a consolidated fund would assist in prioritising small and rural municipalities over urban municipalities which already had facilities.

Mr Khawula asked who was paying boxing provincial managers and was kick boxing part of BSA. Who were the board members that had resigned from the previous board?

Ms P Tlake (ANC, Free State) said the school sport approach that the DM had spoken to in terms of the MIG being consolidated and DBE new school roll-out would also assist in combating substance and drug abuse in communities.

Ms Ravele replied that provincial managers were paid by BSA currently but in reviewing everything BSA with SRSA possibly would also need to engage provincial Government to also subsidise remuneration of those managers.
Kickboxing and wrestling were not part of boxing and any athlete that did both would not be allowed to box as well, because that burdened boxing with injuries from the other two combat sports, because mixed martial arts which was not registered was more dangerous. The new combat sports bill which SRSA would encompass all combat sports.
Ms Ravele initially listed those board members she recalled but later said she would forward the list of board members to the Committee with reasons as to why they had resigned together with a list of the new board members.

The Chairperson thanked SRSA and BSA for coming to Parliament and said SRSA could rely on the Committee to engage provinces on issues to do with budgets for sports infrastructure. She appreciated members of the Committee committing to follow up on their respective MECs and that DBEs promises would also be tracked. Hopefully SRSA would eventually convince NT to consolidate the 15% MIG and give it back to SRSA.   

Minutes of 14 November 2014
Mr Khawula challenged that he had submitted an apology which did not reflect on the minutes for that date.

Ms Dlamini requested that the staff should advice the Committee on consistent apologies from Members failing to attend meetings.

The Chairperson said she thought the Committee Whip performed her functions for all Committee Members irrespective or party alliance and that if those issues went beyond that level the chief whips office would deal with such issues.

At this point, the Chairperson asked the PMG monitor to vacate the meeting room as the business in the minutes was not for public consumption.