Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs Induction Workshop

Meeting report

The Chairperson opened the meeting and welcomed those present. He had received apologies from Dr P Mulder (FF+), Mr G Gardee (EFF) and Ms N Mnisi (ANC) (she arrived later during the workshop) and Mr M Hoosen (DA).   He read through the programme, mentioning that the workshop was to have been held until 15:00 on another date, but this had been refused by the Plenary. Their time was therefore limited, as the workshop was being held on a normal Committee day. He called on Mr Adam Salmon (Committee Researcher) to start his presentation on the rights and responsibilities of Committees and the lines of authority.

Mandate and Activities of Portfolio Committee: Home Affairs in Relation to Organs of State
Mr Salmon gave an overview of the above, during which he explained that the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs had jurisdiction over three different organs of state: the Department of Home Affairs; the Electoral Commission, which is a Chapter 9 Institution; and the Government Printing Works, which is a Government component. The Film and Publications Board, formerly within this Portfolio had, by proclamation of the President, been moved to the newly established Communications Portfolio, as of 12 July 2014.

The basis that formed the legal framework of Committees was:

- the Constitution;

- the Public Service Act (it was important to note that in terms of this Act, the Director-General of Home Affairs is also the Accounting Officer, and he has to account to the Committee on the functions of the Department);

- the Public Finance Management Act;

- the Powers, Privileges and Immunities of Parliament and Provincial Legislatures Act;

- the Rules of the National Assembly (In terms of S.57 of the Constitution); and

- the Money Bills Amendment Procedures and Related Matters Act.

Mr Salmon described as a useful document, the Usual Yearly Cycle of Parliament, based on Heinrich Böll Stiftung’s ‘People’s Power People’s Parliament 2012’. He then described the Usual Legislative Cycle (courtesy of the Parliament website), which goes into greater detail on the work Parliament does.

The Chairperson invited comment and/or requests for clarification on Mr Salmon’s presentation.

Discussion
Mr D Gumede (ANC) asked how many times the Committee had to deal with Section 32 (Treasury) reports, and when was the next one due.

Mr Salmon replied that this question referred to the Money Bills Amendment Procedures & Related Matters Act. There are four a year, but the Committee deals with two of them. The Department will deal with Section 32 reports when it updates the Committee on its budget and its annual report. The matter is on the schedule for next quarter.

Referring to the slide ‘Powers, Privileges & Immunities of Parliament Act’, the Chairperson asked about the possibility of investigating the matter of the Adult World shop near Parliament.  Could the Committee undertake such an investigation and, if so, could a specialist be appointed to undertake such a task?

Mr Salmon answered that the Constitution does allow for such action, but since the Publications Board no longer falls under the Department’s jurisdiction, this cannot be dealt with through Home Affairs.  However, he thought that the research unit could get terms of reference to do more detailed research on the possibility of an investigation by Parliament.

The Chairperson thanked Mr Salmon “for empowering us”. He then called on Mr Eddy Mathonsi, the Committee Secretary, to give his presentation.

Legacy Report of the 4^th Parliament
This report covers the period May 2009 to March 2014 and deals with the mandate of the Department; entities of the Department, functions of the Committee; method of work of the Committee; key highlights during the 4^th Parliament; oversight visits and an international study tour; legislation processed; international agreements; statutory appointments; Committee’s focus areas during the 4^th Parliament; issues requiring attention in the 5^th Parliament; and stakeholders. (See document)

In the overview of the mandate of the Department, Mr Mathonsi stressed the importance of managing elections and maintaining and establishing the voters’ roll through the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC).  Methods included engaging with provincial managers to learn of their successes and failures, such as asking questions about how many offices there are, what the challenges are, and how they are being dealt with. This had been effective in empowering Members. The annual report is produced in September.

Oversight visits are undertaken to ports of entry and Lindela Repatriation Centre.  Refugee offices in Johannesburg, Cape Town and Port Elizabeth have closed. The refugee reception office in Durban is still open. Two offices, one in Pretoria and the other in Marabastad, are still functional and there is an office in Musina.

The aim is to move refugee centres closer to the borders. If asylum seekers are rejected they can go back home. If accepted, they can come into the country. How the renewal of permits will work is an issue which the Department will have to solve.

The smart card identity document which was introduced in 2013 is a highlight for the Department. This card will replace the green ID document. Messages have been sent to Members to apply for their smart cards. Mr Mathonsi mentioned again that he needs the ID numbers of Members so that he can do the necessary checking before they apply for their smart cards. The cost is R140 for people under 65 years of age.

The Department is dealing with the matter of South Africans living abroad being allowed to vote, starting from the 2014 elections.

Visits had been undertaken to the Free State, Gauteng, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northwest Province, KwaZulu-Natal and Eastern Cape, but not much in the way of visits to the Western Cape thus far.

He discussed international agreements, and mentioned that an agreement with Lesotho had not been approved. They do not have a population register, and people coming to South Africa use photo copies to identify themselves.

On the subject of statutory appointments, he reported that Commissioners are appointed for a period of seven years.

The Committee’s focus areas during the 4^th Parliament included, among others, interrogation of the importance of finalising the ICT (Information and Communication Technologies) integration.

Under issues requiring attention in the 5^th Parliament, Mr Mathonsi mentioned the following:

-  29 000 people have been identified who are sharing ID numbers. When there is a death concerning such cases, it makes the issuing of death certificates very difficult.  People were asked to come forward in order for the matter to be sorted out, but it often resulted in the ID of the person without debt being claimed as their own;

-  There are cases where corrupt officials have made it possible for one person to have two IDs.  It has happened where, say, a 17-year-old has not applied for an ID and the number is allocated to someone who already has an ID.  In many such cases, where the IDs have been given in a corrupt manner, the people do not come forward because they fear their IDs will be confiscated.

-  Late registration of children’s births needs to be phased out. Children should be registered within 30 days of birth to avoid the late registration of birth. There are many people who will claim they are born in South Africa, if the 30-day period is not adhered to.  Only South Africans can be entered in the Population Register.

-  At hospitals, registration of birth is not a problem.   However, complications sometimes occur due to cultural customs that dictate that a mother wants to name her child first, before registering his or her birth.

-  The Department wants to make it possible for people in rural areas to apply for smart cards.

-  Finalisation of the regulations related to the Immigration and Refugees Amendment Bills would also receive attention in the 5^th Parliament.

-  Vacant posts must be filled.

-  Obstacles encountered with the Department of Public Works (DP/W) in acquiring new offices by the Department and Government Printing Works, also require attention.

-  There is currently no migration policy. Efforts to create one, and regulations in this regard, need to be finalised.   Although there are no reliable statistics, there are an estimated 2-3 million Zimbabweans in South Africa. The applications for permits of many of these Zimbabweans are expiring, and only 275 000 have come to reapply. In August, a decision will be made about this matter.

In conclusion, Mr Mathonsi mentioned the stakeholders of the Department. These include, among others, the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), the Law Society of South Africa (LSSA), the Consortium for Refugees and Migrants in South Africa (CoRMSA), University of Cape Town Law Clinic and Lawyers for Human Rights.

The Chairperson thanked Mr Mathonsi. He remarked on how many things had happened. He mentioned the 29 000 people with duplicate IDs and said, “there should be a way around this”.

Discussion
Ms T Kenye (ANC) mentioned the amount of R140 which people over 65 are not obliged to pay. She would like communication about this to be extended, because many people did not know this.

The Chairperson said the new Committee would have an opportunity to come up with a modus operandi in this regard, but at this workshop the work of the previous Committee was under the spotlight.

Mr A Figlan (DA) requested clarity on the closure of refugee reception centres in three provinces. Was oversight done to see if the services were poor, or whether they were improving? He wanted this to be done.

Mr Mathonsi said research would be done and interrogation of the issue would follow.

The Chairperson welcomed Adv Kayalethu Zweni, Acting Head, Office on Institutions Supporting Democracy (OISD, and called on him to give his presentation.

Role of Parliament in relation to Chapter 9 institutions
Mr Zweni said the OISD was created to provide strategic support and advice to the Speaker and Deputy Speaker on matters relating to institutions supporting democracy (ISDs). It also strives to strengthen ISDs and Parliament. It was important, for the sake of sound relations and vibrant interaction with the ISDs, that Members have a thorough understanding of the rather complex relationship between these institutions and Parliament, as well as their roles and mandates.  (See Presentation)

The Chairperson requested clarification on the use of the word “complex”.

Mr Zweni replied that the independence of these institutions is often a debatable one. The role of Parliament is to support the ISDs, and it has the responsibility to ensure that funds are used appropriately. The ISDs complement Parliament’s oversight role over the Executive.  However, Section 181(5) of the Constitution states that these institutions are accountable to the National Assembly, and must report on their activities and the performance of their functions to the National Assembly at least once a year. Their accountability relationship seeks to safeguard against corruption, abuse of power and any other improper behaviour; affect democratic control; improve performance; and to serve as a platform for public accountability.  Parliament’s oversight role is often interpreted as interference. The aim is to improve transparency, so as to enhance public trust.  However, according to Section 239 of the Constitution, these institutions are also organs of state and they see themselves as independent.  Furthermore, Section 181(4) of the Constitution states that “no person or organ of state may interfere with the functioning of these institutions”.  He quoted the example of the South African Human Rights Commission’s report on xenophobia -- the Commission came out “with guns blazing”.  He added that “these attacks are likely to come again”.  This Committee needed to interrogate the Commission on recommendations that they had made. He suggested that resolutions should be made by this Committee, so that they could be implemented by the Executive.

In dealing with challenges faced by the ISDs, he said that there had been complaints about short notice being given when they were to report to Committees, as well as the fact that once they had provided their reports, that was the end of it -- they received no feedback.

They also experienced funding constraints, in that the funds allocated were inadequate to meet their statutory obligations.

Discussion
The Chairperson expressed the wish that the workshop had been attended by a “full house,” and that those present should be trainers of the Members who were not in attendance.

In response, Adv Zweni said that the induction of members of committees was ongoing. He had been asked by the House Chair of Committees to address all committees during August.

The Chairperson urged Adv Zweni to approach the induction in a properly organised way, because certain committees did not have ISDs.  The Committee wanted to hear ISDs and talk to them, to see if they were misrepresenting certain powers committees had over them.  He suggested three-hour sessions with members.  From there the Whips’ Forum -- with an appropriate mandate -- could address their members in their own caucuses so that information around these commissions could be observed.

Adv Zweni replied that people had been invited and that there was talk of this kind of interaction.  It was recognised that the role and functioning of these institutions were at a national level, but there were instances where the National Council of Provinces (NCOP) had to be engaged.  In matters concerning service delivery, analyses were conducted and reports submitted, although he added that “we work with Parliament”.

The Chairperson said that, despite reports, the NCOP is not obliged to do anything, even if it affects local municipalities and provinces. Going forward, the Committee must engage with Parliament on these matters.

Ms Kenye had a concern over the issue of interference.  If Section 181 says the ISDs are accountable with regard to the expenditure of public money once a year, then this is their mandate and it should not be interpreted as interference.

Adv Zweni again referred to the fine line between accountability oversight and interference.

The Chairperson mentioned that some ISDs had tried to get their budgets directly themselves, and not through relevant Departments.

Adv Zweni replied that this debate is ongoing.  In the 5^th Parliament, allocation will be done via Parliament’s Budget Vote.  It is a political issue that might necessitate the amendment of legislation.

The Chairperson said the matter was ongoing and Adv Zweni should assist the Committee. He thought it would probably be a lengthy and difficult meeting on 19 August, but that together they would deal with it. The Committee did not call the IEC -- they called the Department, as these institutions account through departments. However, he felt the Committee could engage directly with these entities.

The Chairperson raised the question of whether the cry for independence was just a turf war or whether it was a realistic complaint. Whatever the situation, there was a need to know what they were going to do with the money they received from Home Affairs.

Ms D Raphuti (ANC) said a date should be set to ask the IEC to come to the Committee. She wanted to know whether they were coming on 19 August.  She expressed surprise that the very people who do not understand the functioning process were not here, and this was “very, very serious”.  Adv Zweni had instilled information that the Committee had not done.   Facts needed to be handled the right way.

The Chairperson confirmed that the IEC “is our ISD”.  Adv Zweni had explained that.

Adv Zweni said the matter of ISD independence and the channelling of funding needed to be looked at.

The Chairperson thanked Adv Zweni for “gracing our Committee”.

The Chairperson said that Mr Gumede had been urgently called to the Intelligence Committee, and there was a need to deal with the second term programme and the minutes of the meeting held on 8 July 2014 before Mr Gumede had to leave the workshop.

Second Term Programme of the Committee
Mr Mathonsi gave an overview of the Committee’s second term programme.  It included, among other matters, the activities of officials, the meeting on 19 August with the IEC on their role and mandate, and the decision to call on the Department to brief the Committee on the situation around the refugees and Immigration Regulations. This meeting would take place on 26 August. A visit to the Barrack Street office to see their operations there would take place. A briefing by the Government Printing Works (GPW) would also be requested on their role and mandate and matters that required attention. A briefing by the Auditor General on the audit outcome of the Department would also take place. During the last meeting on 16 September, the past audit will come under discussion. The last meeting will be on the first quarter expenditure and performance report.

The Chairperson mentioned that the briefing by the GPW would be a short one. The Chairperson suggested 9 September for the meeting with the Auditor General.

Mr Figlan moved the acceptance of the second term programme.  It was seconded and adopted.

Minutes of meeting on 8 July
The minutes were adopted with minor adjustments, one of them being that the EFF will not support the budget (the amended minutes to be provided).

Ms Raputhi moved the adoption, and Ms Kenye seconded it with amendments.

Mr C Frolick (House Chairperson: Committees, Oversight and ICT) arrived, having had to attend another meeting earlier, and was welcomed by the Chairperson, who expressed disappointment that the newer Members were not present, and that Mr Gumede had had to leave to attend another urgent meeting. However, he hoped those present would relay the information Mr Frolick was about to give.

Roles, Responsibilities and Expectations of the Committee
Mr Frolick gave a lively verbal overview of Members’ roles, responsibilities and expectations. He urged them to look over and above the full scope of their mandate.  For instance, there will be continuous requests from Southern African Development Community (SADC) countries and other international bodies, which call for parliamentarians to come and observe elections. Alternate members should be exposed to training on critical areas, so that they can partake in such observer missions. He said, in a humorous tone: “There is life beyond Parliament.”

Through interaction, Members should have a thorough understanding of the roles and mandates of ISDs in protecting the rights and the dignity of all citizens. They must report effectively, without fear, favour or prejudice.  Mostly the Auditor General (AG) and the Public Protector (PP) are known, but all of the ISDs play an important role in supporting Parliament.

He had decided to invite all the different institutions to Parliament for one week, to encourage interaction during joint meetings. A letter to this effect had been sent out.

The role of these institutions is different from Portfolio Committees (PCs). PCs do not have the skills and competencies that the institutions have. There must be a move away from the thought that there is an adversarial relationship between the Chapter 9 institutions and Parliament.  A clear understanding of the relationship needs to be developed. In that way, the 5th Parliament will be placed on a sound footing. He suggested that the above should be taken into consideration when the time comes for annual reporting; the    Chairperson should act in liaison with these institutions.

Mr Frolick encouraged the Committee to meet with the Auditor General. He will advise on what Parliament expects from them.  In this way, the Committee will know who to deal with at the AG’s office.  Knowing who the critical staff are, with whom to interact with regarding Home Affairs, is key.  This was also part of the nation building exercise they are busy with, and important for the preparation of the Budgetary Review and Recommendations Reports (BRRR).  BRRRs must not be a once-off situation.  To have a draft report ready in advance reduces pressure on Committees, because in October there will be two weeks in which to finalise reports. To have to do everything in that short period constitutes poor planning.  Interaction must be ongoing, so that in those two weeks in October, in terms of oversight, everything can be consolidated in one report. The Standing Committee on Appropriations (Scopa) can provide regular updates.

Mr Frolick invited the Committee to make use of the opportunity later in the next term to participate in a strategic planning workshop.  It would embolden their mission.  Parliament would be finalising its strategic plan and such a workshop would be most useful in determining where the Committee needs to go in the next five years.

He works with 38 chairpersons, but he was available to discuss issues concerning the execution of the Committee’s mandate in terms of the Rules of Parliament. He had an open-door policy for consultation when he was in the office.

Mr Frolick’s presentation was well received. The Chairperson thanked him for his assistance. He regarded the suggestions for collaboration most useful, as it would improve their effectiveness. He appreciated the input about strategic sessions, which he believes would bring out issues that they needed to address.

There was no response to the Chairperson’s request for comments, and he therefore assumed this was an indication of how clear Mr Frolick’s presentation had been.

As there was no further discussion, the Chairperson adjourned the workshop.