SAPS progress reports on Committee's recommendations in BRR Report, UN Security Council Proclamations on Taliban and Al-Qaeda: SAPS briefings

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04 March 2014
Chairperson: Ms A Van Wyk (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The South African Police Service (SAPS) reported back on the progress it had made in answering or implementing the Committee’s recommendations in the latest Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report. At the outset, the Committee expressed displeasure that the National Commission was not present, particularly since this was one of the last occasions on which she could interact with the Committee prior to Parliament rising. Items that the SAPS included in the report included capital works, the integrated justice system and criminal justice system, supply chain management, technology management systems, resource allocation guides and the SAPS Stores 13. There was also a report-back on the police inspectorate, firearm losses and recovery, administration, sick and incapacity leave, e-dockets and pocketbooks. The presentation also spoke to the submission of erratum on the Annual Report, visible policing, lost or stolen dockets, crime intelligence, filling of vacant posts and VIP protection and security.

The Committee was not critical of and expressed its frustration with the presentation, saying that it was vague, lacked detail and contained no measurable content, with no committing deadlines. The presentation was simply stating the obvious and seemed more like a wish list. In addition to that general concern, Members questioned the relevance of some of the information provided, the training targets, filling of posts, career pathing, pocketbooks and investigations. Noting that most of the progress reported on did not bear a direct correlation to the Committee’s recommendations, the Committee made it clear that SAPS would be given until close of business on Friday 7 March to provide the Committee with a reworked document, showing exactly what had been done, and what remained to be done, with clear deadlines.
A very brief outline was presented to the Committee on the UN Security Council resolutions dealing with the listing of those people suspected of links with Taliban and Al-Qaeda, and it was noted that there were a number of proclamations in regard to these lists, which were presented to both Houses of Parliament. It was recommended the Committee adopt the two latest proclamations. The recommendation was adopted by the Committee. 

Meeting report

Chairperson’s opening remarks
The Chairperson informed Members that she had received an apology from the National Commissioner, Ms Riah Phiyega, but it was unacceptable that she was not present as this was probably the last time she would have a chance to interact with the Committee, and this matter had been placed on the agenda from last year. There was nothing so important as the BRRR recommendations, and the National Commissioner  was ultimately responsible for ensuring that SAPS made progress.

Lt Gen Stefan Schutte, Deputy National Commissioner: Resource Management, SAPS, who was leading the delegation, and apologised for the absence of the National Commissioner, who was abroad, and said that the views of the Committee would be relayed.

The Chairperson commented that the fact that she was abroad made this even worse, as she was fully aware of this important date.

SAPS progress report and replies to recommendations contained in the Committee’s 2013 Budgetary Review and Recommendation Report, dated 24 October 2013
Lt Gen Schutte began by looking at recommendations in the Committee’s Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report (BRRR) related to funds for capital works. The Committee had been concerned that SAPS continued to build on its own although this building took a longer time than if it had been attended to by the Department of Public Works (DPW). In addition, money was being moved from the building account and this caused delays with the stations’ building process. The Committee was dissatisfied with the slow building and the length of time it took to complete projects. The Committee recommended that funds be made available per station project and that improved monitoring be in place for this purpose. 

Lt Gen Schutte explained that the mandate for SAPS to provide its own new facilities as well as attend to maintenance was devolved to SAPS through a Memorandum of Understanding between the Departments of Public Works and of Police. In the past, he conceded that changing of priorities, projects being put on hold and shifted into outer years caused problems. The Divisional Commissioner of Supply Chain Management (SCM) had since structured the execution of building projects into phases to ensure the achievement of reasonable milestones in each financial year. On the side of SAPS this included processes of site clearance, through to planning and design and construction. Funds were available for all projects per phase that were on the annual performance plan. There was also funding made available for stations, to cater for day to day maintenance. In short, there was progress in order to address the first priority of stations building, and the second priority of spending money appropriated by Parliament to SAPS.

The BRRR also contained recommendations on the integrated justice system (IJS) and criminal justice system (CJS) revamp. The Committee had registered its concern that many of the intended projects with the links to stations, such as the e-docket system, had not shown the required results despite huge financial investments in the project. The Committee recommended that SAPS management make available the necessary systems for ensuring the completion of the projects and the link to courts. The Committee also recommended that the project manager for the IJS/CJS project must provide a regular quarterly report on the progress of all projects. Lt-Gen Schutte said that the quarterly report would be provided.

In relation to concerns in the BRRR about supply chain management (SCM), Lt Gen Schutte noted that a Contract Management Strategy (CMS) in respect of the procurement of goods and services had been refined for SAPS. The CMS would address the concerns raised by the Committee and was being considered by the Technology Management Services (TMS) division, in order to align the CMS with instructions issued by National Treasury. Legal capacity had also been designated at the SCM division to assist with the drafting of service level agreements and contracts, where applicable. Ernst and Young had already submitted an independent assessor report to SAPS rating its procurement processes to show where the gaps were and to suggest remedial steps. Lt-Gen Schutte said that this was a continuing process, in view of the requirements in the most recent State of the Nation Address (SONA) and the central procurement office for government departments.

In relation to SAPS’s technology management services (TMS), the Committee had registered its discontent with the TMS environment and was concerned about the continued investigation into the Terrestrial Trunked Radio (TETRA) project. The Committee had recommended that the project be finalised within the next three months, to prevent an escalation of costs and that the National Commissioner must oversee the process. Lt Gen Schutte reported that, following an instruction from the National Commissioner, Senior Counsel had been briefed by the State Attorney to advise SAPS in respect of the TETRA project. The findings by the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) would be taken into consideration and would inform advice to SAPS on the way forward. Furthermore, interactions with external assessors were held and SAPS was in the midst of a possible legal process.

Lt Gen N Mazibuko, Divisional Commissioner: Human Resource Management, SAPS, spoke to the resource allocation guide (RAG), noting the Committee’s recommendation that the RAG report should be compiled, together with research conducted by the Civilian Secretariat for Police (the Secretariat), without delay. The findings of the research should provide input into the finalisation of the RAG. He noted that during 2013, SAPS management had committed themselves to correcting the distortions and imbalances found in the allocation of posts and personnel across all business units of SAPS. Most of the allocations were attributed to management practices (such as promotions, transfers, or establishment of new business units) and interpretation of principles of post-provisioning norms. All these were presented to the top level of SAPS, who debated and agreed on an approach to stabilise and normalise.  

The Chairperson interjected because she was worried about the vagueness and lack of detail so far in the presentation. She reminded the presenters that Parliament and the Committee needed to hold the Department accountable, and if they were saying that something would be finalised, then the Committee needed to know by when.

Lt Gen Mazibuko said the process of normalisation and stabilisation had gone a long way and a number of people additional to the establishment had been identified. Because this was part of an ongoing process of filling vacancies as they occurred, it was not that easy to give exact timelines. He suggested that perhaps a special session could be arranged to brief Members specifically on this pint.

The Chairperson sought the input from other Members, as she did not think that what the Department was presenting was very helpful at this stage. The Committee had just come from an oversight visit to the Eastern Cape and she did not want such imprecise answers.

Ms P Mocumi (ANC) agreed that the input given by SAPS had no commitments to deadlines and the Committee could not hold the Department accountable without such dates.

Ms M Molebatsi (ANC) wanted to know what was meant by “stabilising and normalising”.

Mr V Ndlovu (IFP) asked if the presentation could be finished before Members asked questions.

The Chairperson said that she would allow this, but wanted to note the questions already asked calling for clarity. She said that if no timeframes were given throughout the rest of the document, then the process could be stopped now. It was clear in the BRRR that the Committee expected certain matters to be attended to by a certain time.

Lt Gen Mazibuko explained that “normalisation and stabilisation” referred to people employed outside of the establishment in the sense that they did not occupy funded posts within the SAPS establishment. It might, for instance, refer to a case where a person had been dismissed and the post filled, but that person was later reinstated through a court process, which would result in employment over and above the post establishment. A decision was taken to accommodate everyone external to establishment which included those occupying non-funded posts.
Lt Gen Schutte added that at a previous meeting the Department had reported that there was a RAG with an ideal staff establishment, a granted staff establishment and even a funded staff establishment scenario. At the time, certain posts were on the ideal staff establishment, although they were not necessarily funded posts. SAPS then decided on the stabilisation and normalisation exercise to correct the distortions and imbalances found in the allocation of posts and personnel. SAPS looked at the funded staff establishment against the targeted staff establishment. A fixed establishment was then decided upon, to be funded for every business unit not working on the ideal scenario. Replacements were also looked at through the system of promotion within the establishment, whilst recognising also that replacements might happen at a higher level.  

Mr P Groenewald (FF+) sought a detailed report on the fixed and funded establishment, to distinguish between the two.

Mr D Stubbe (DA) noted that, in view of the timing, he doubted that the Fourth Parliament would have time to look at more detailed reports. He felt the deliberations on the BRRR would have to be dealt with by the next Committee.

Mr Ndlovu was still concerned that because there were no timeframes in the presentation, this could not be specifically reflected in the Committee’s legacy report.

The Chairperson shared the concerns of Members, but noted all these issues would indeed be covered in the Committee’s Legacy Report, which still needed to be adopted. She found the presentation unacceptable and commented that it was ”typical of SAPS” to produce a lot of words with very little actual measurable content. She heard the concerns about Parliament rising soon, but said this did not stop the Committee from saying that the Department should return a reworked document by the end of this week, with deadlines and measurable targets where relevant.

She called the discussion on SAPS stores layout as “an absolute pipe-dream” and said that the Committee was realistic enough to see that, because stations did not look the same. She wanted SAPS to speak to all issues briefly, and precisely. She demanded that a fully re-worked document must be returned to the Committee by no later than Friday, even if the Department worked through the night. If SAPS thought this Committee would be satisfied with the presentation, then clearly it did not know the Committee well enough. Furthermore, even the manner in which some of the Committee’s recommendations were summarised was incorrect. She urged the Department not to try to be creative but rather to be factual.

Maj Gen Susan Pienaar, Visible Policing, SAPS, discussed the SAPS 13 Stores which had been a concern to the Committee, who had asked for a detailed report on the improvement of management controls. She said that the implementation of a strategy for SAPS 13 Stores addressed the development of a standardised design and layout for SAPS 13 Stores to provide for minimum standards for as set out in the Occupational Health and Safety Act and regulations, to establish sufficient safe and secure storage facilities for property and exhibits at police stations and relevant identified places, and to improve the proper execution of the SAPS 13 Stores policies, procedures, instructions and guidelines in the development, implementation and monitoring of standards and procedures. SAPS also needed to improve command and control measures within the SAPS 13 Stores environment, and to ensure the proper assessment of performance within the Stores by designing an assessment tool on performance or clearance of SAPS 13 Stores, as well as take definitive steps to prevent losses, theft and corruption. SAPS needed to support capacity building and a career path for SAPS 13 officials in terms of selection, recruitment and development of training programmes, to develop the skills and knowledge of the SAPS 13 officials, commanders and managers, and ensure that the Property Control and Exhibit Management (PCEM) system was rolled out to all SAPS 13 Stores.

The Chairperson thought this was merely a wish-list, because there was no evidence of any difference on the ground. She asked what exact progress had been made with the strategy, in terms of the numbers of stations affected and how many more stations were targeted. She asked if, in reality, the situation had improved.
Maj Gen Pienaar could not at this stage say whether the situation had improved or not.

The Chairperson told her it was then assumed that the situation had not improved.

Mr Ndlovu proposed at this point that SAPS stop its presentation, if it would continue in this way, for Members would clearly be raising the same questions throughout. If it was said the PCEM system would be rolled out, then he needed to know exactly what this meant.

The Chairperson asked if this presentation would improve as it went on. The progress on SAPS 13 Stores, for example, was not providing anything new.

Lt Gen Schutte hoped the presentation would improve although it was ultimately up to the Committee to make that decision. He said that in other areas of the presentation, there would be more concise information, with facts and statistics. He acknowledged that the state of the SAPS 13 Stores was a contentious issue.

Mr Groenewald said the Committee was faced with time constraints. It was important to get this presentation as a report-back, but a good assessment would not be provided, given the lack of time.  He suggested that a longer meting be arranged to go through the information thoroughly.

The Chairperson ruled that the presentation should be finished today, but the Committee would call the Department back for a longer meeting, or over two mornings. She was very disappointed with the presentation, reiterating that the SAPS should have known the Committee’s expectations and the fact that they would not be able to get away with such imprecise explanations. Many of the aims were unrealistic, were questionable, and differed vastly from year to year. SAPS did not appear to be speaking to those who were aware of what exactly was happening at stations. She reiterated that by the end of this week, SAPS must come back with an improved document, taking into consideration the comments made today. She emphasised the need for measurable numbers and asked where money would come from if National Treasury was saying that all departments should tighten their belts. She pleaded with the presenters to speak with more enthusiasm.
Maj Gen V Matshatshe, Acting Divisional Commissioner, looked at progress made with the Police Inspectorate. He explained that management of discipline rested with commanders at different levels and these commanders were supported by human resources to ensure that proper procedures were followed when enforcing discipline. The Inspectorate’s role was to provide oversight. The need for remedial action or consequences if the recommendations were not adhered to would be discussed at SAPS’s plenary session.

Mr Groenewald remarked that this progress report really said nothing, was unacceptable and a waste of time.

The Chairperson agreed with these comments, saying that the recommendation of the Committee was clear, and for SAPS merely to give a paragraph outlining the progress on this recommendation was an insult.
Lt Gen Schutte turned to questions raised around firearm losses for the last five financial years, from 2008/09 to 2012/13. In 2008/09, 3 403 firearms were lost and 1 020 recovered. In 2009/10, 3 812 firearms were lost and 1 142 recovered. In 2010/11, 1 344 firearms were lost and 348 recovered, and in 2011/12, 887 firearms were lost and 183 recovered. In 2012/13, 834 firearms were lost and 101 were recovered. Overall, over the five years, 10 280 firearms were lost, and 2795 were recovered.
Data had been aggregated per province over the same five financial years. In 2008/09 and the following year, Eastern Cape was the province with the most firearm losses. In 2010/11 it was Mpumalanga, in 2011/12 it was KwaZulu Natal (KZN) while in 2012/13 it was Gauteng. In 2008/09 Gauteng showed the most firearm recoveries, in 2009/10 it was the Eastern Cape, in 2010/11 it was Mpumalanga, and in 2011/12 and the following year the most recoveries were made in KZN.

Lt Gen Schutte then turned to the Committee’s recommendation that it should be told of all organisational and structural changes in SAPS. Importantly, the Committee should be appraised if there were any changes in the mandate, functions and structural adjustments as a result of legislation affecting SAPS top management.

The Chairperson said this appraisal needed to start happening immediately, pointing out that the last changes had not been relayed to the Committee, leaving the Members to read about them in the media, like everyone else.

Lt Gen Schutte noted that the Committee had recommended the better management of sick and incapacity leave.

Lt Gen Mazibuko looked at the average number of days taken by employees by way of sick leave and incapacity leave, noting that there was a steady decrease in both. SAPS was determined to hold onto this lead, by taking pro-active measures through an early warning system before the employee had exhausted his or her 36 days sick leave benefit. The organisational information management system on leave had been already amended, to discourage short absences from work without medical certificates, and also to discourage employees from staying away from work while depleting their medical benefits. The work reintegration system was also a reactive strategy to deal with employees who already had taken long sick leave, and allowed for temporary redeployment and reintegration into the work environment. The system also looked at the adjustment of working hours and an assessment of the workload carried, with an option to allow for light duties. The guidelines for commanders still needed to be outlined.
Lt Gen Schutte added that the SAPS was now acting more pro-actively instead of being re-active, taking measures such as the accumulating of data in order to identify and manage risks for certain members.
Lt Gen Mazibuko moved onto the new disciplinary regulations, but said that these had not yet been promulgated by the Minister.

Mr Groenewald raised a point of order and wanted to see the draft regulations by the next meeting, as he felt that there was no use in discussing something that he was not aware of.

The Chairperson agreed and said that the previous regulations were written in a way that overrode the legislation, which was a problem.

Lt Gen Mazibuko said that SAPS would make the regulations available.

The Chairperson asked why there was a delay with the promulgation of the regulations.
Lt Gen Mazibuko could only speculate, but did not know the exact reasons.

The Chairperson asked the Committee Secretary to write to the Minister and ask why there was a delay with the promulgation of regulations.

Lt Gen Schutte turned to the recommendations on e-dockets, noting that the Committee recommended that there should be quarterly reports on progress made on the implementation of the e-dockets. Two quarterly reports had already been submitted to the Committee and another was on its way.

In relation to pocketbooks, he noted that the Committee had commended the Department for using pocketbooks, but recommended that these be inspected during oversight visits of all SAPS members.

Maj Gen Pienaar said pocketbooks were included as an areas of focus by the Inspectorate, as they were an integral part of managing human resources. Findings on the management and administration of pocketbooks had been highlighted as a cause for concern, in SAPS’s own management reports, as this was a factor that could affect command and control being exercised effectively.

The Chairperson highlighted the Committee’s frustrations because the progress outlined at this point was merely stating the obvious.
Lt Gen Schutte continued by noting the Committee’s recommendation that SAPS include feedback on previous concerns raised by the Committee during engagements, and said that this would be done.

He noted also that the Committee had wanted the submission of an erratum to the Annual Report to be tabled in Parliament. He reported that the erratum had been finalised for tabling to Parliament by the Minster, and corrective measures had been taken to avoid a repeat of errors.

The Chairperson asked when the erratum was submitted.

Lt Gen Schutte said he did not know have exact dates, but it had been late.

The Chairperson said the erratum was submitted only two weeks ago, and felt this showed total disregard for Parliament and the Committee.

Ms Mocumi said that she knew the Chairperson had made a ruling on the continuation of this presentation earlier on, but she wanted to express her extreme frustration. She thought SAPS was supposed to be reporting on the implementation of the Committee’s recommendations, but did not feel that this was actually being done.

The Chairperson asked Lt Gen Schutte to pick up the pace.

Maj Gen Pienaar turned to Programme 2: Visible Policing, and noted that, following the Committee’s recommendations, SAPS had undertaken the process of reviewing the National Instruction so that it would be simplified and aligned to the monitoring tool used by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (IPID). A 10-point check list had also been developed, so that SAPS members could ensure compliance by checking off their obligations. This had not yet been implemented, as it was important to ensure that this checklist did not become just another compliance effort.

To improve on the turnaround strategy, in line with recommendations of the Committee, SAPS had intensified its compliance inspections, and provinces were required to report progress in terms of Head Office circulars, regarding improved service delivery, enhanced public education and awareness. This included the roll-out of the English version of the pamphlets and victim’s rights posters, while the process of printing in other official languages was under way. There was improvement on inter-departmental collaboration for implementation of the Domestic Violence Act, and the targeted figure of 6 535 members were trained during the 2013/14 year on the Domestic Violence Act Learning Programme. Between January 1999 and December 2013, 104 947 members underwent the five day Domestic Violence Learning Programme, including the basic training.

Maj Gen Pienaar noted the improvement of the management of victim friendly rooms (VFRs). SAPS had developed a multi-year plan for the establishment of additional VFRs at police stations that lacked this facility at the moment. 922 VFRs were established as at 31 December 2013. It was participating in the National Council on Gender based Violence, which provided a platform for all departments to maintain consensus on policy and strategic issues by coordinating all activities and providing guidance, while monitoring the implementation of all programmes dealing with the elimination of Gender Based Violence. SAPS had established a partnership with the Law Reform Society of SA, to conduct a series of work sessions with members of SAPS to address police attitudes towards addressing gender based violence. A series of provincial capacity workshops was completed.

She reported that in regard to monitoring and evaluation, Visible Policing had embarked on integrated station visits, with the national and provincial Inspectorates, to enhance compliance, and a work session had been planned to share good practices, which would also provide feedback on the review process.

Maj Gen Pienaar said that in relation to the Child Justice Act, there was continuous monitoring of compliance during oversight visits, and ongoing training in order to ensure all functional members were trained on a cumulative basis. Station lectures had been recommended as a sound practice to impart skills to a large component of members at stations. The five-day Vulnerable Children Learning Programme had become the preferred course for training members on the Child Justice Act, as this programme provided in-depth knowledge. By October 2013, 3 882 members were trained on this course. It was intended that a training review plan be developed to numerically increase the targets, in terms of numbers of members trained, and their functionality.

Speaking to the management information systems, she noted that monthly statistics were provided to the Inter-Sectoral Committee on Child Justice and the notification of probation officers was part of the Child Justice system.

Maj Gen Pienaar commented that there were clearly inter-departmental roles set with the transportation protocol, but unmarked vehicles were a challenge. In regard to monitoring and evaluation, there was use of compliance station visits, a station and cluster management framework, combined assurance audits and interventions and performance agreements.
Maj Gen Pienaar turned to the Committee’s recommendation that all stations be equipped to implement the Criminal Law (Forensic Procedures) Act. The TMS division was in the process of assisting Visible Policing with the gap in IT equipment at stations, including the National Photographic Information System (NPIS) roll-out.

The following jobs were identified at station level with the responsibility for ensuring data integrity on Case Administration System (CAS): the relief commander, client service centre commander, detective group leader and detective commander.

Maj Gen C Johnson, Detective Services, SAPS, noted the Committee’s recommendation that all detectives be trained in the DNA legislation and the taking of buccal swabs. A Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) was signed to support the training to authorised officers by the service provider from the Department of Health.

He reported on lost and/or stolen dockets, and said that during the period 1 April 2013 to 30 September 2013, 57 dockets were reported as lost/stolen, of which 20 were lost by members, 25 were lost at court, 2 dockets were stolen during a house robbery and 10 dockets were lost during the dismissal/transfer of investigating officers. Dockets were reconstructed and 14 members were charged departmentally, while three criminal cases were also opened.

Lt Gen B Ngubane, Divisional Commissioner: Technology Management Services, SAPS, explained that by end December 2013, there were 268 stations on the e-docket system linked to courts. Altogether, there was now interface of 578 stations, via CAS, to the justice system.
The Chairperson asked where this information was found, noting that it was not in the presentation.

Lt Gen Ngubane replied that police stations were linked to courts via an interface. The National Prosecuting Authority (NPA) was not linked at this stage because it had an internal problem. There were 268 stations with e-dockets, of which some were linked to courts directly.

The Chairperson remarked that this figure was of no use if it was not in writing. An exact written breakdown of courts and stations must be provided to the Committee.

Maj Gen B M Zulu, Acting Divisional Commissioner: Crime Intelligence, SAPS, said the Crime Intelligence Division had undergone a process of reviewing its Annual Performance Plan (APP), and revised and relevant targets would be seen in the 2014/15 plan, as requested by the Committee.
The Chairperson made it clear this was not new, for in the last APP the targets were declared “secret” but now they would be made known.
Maj Gen Zulu moved onto the filling of vacant posts. He noted that posts for provincial heads were advertised and a total of 139 posts were to be filled, from level 12 through to level 7. The process of interviews and placements was under way. For the filling of Public Service Act (PSA) posts, 111 PSA posts were filled, 74 PSA posts had already been advertised and 37 posts were still outstanding but were to be advertised very soon. Vetting posts were also filled, of which there were 8.

The Chairperson noted that one of the recommendations of the Committee – that of security clearances at crime intelligence – had not been spoken about.

Maj Gen Zulu explained that there were vetting priorities for the different posts and the Department was working hard to ensure there was capacity for people to be vetted on time.

The Chairperson said that whilst she did not know exact numbers, she knew that there were minimal numbers of members, about 1 019 out of 7938 members, who had active security clearances. She wanted an exact progress report on this aspect, within the Crime Intelligence environment.
Lt Gen Schutte looked at VIP protection and security, noting the Committee’s recommendation that all security personnel immediately be vetted for security clearance, in the interests of national security. Further progress on this would be provided to the Committee in the next Annual Report.

The Chairperson said this was another example of the Department making organisational changes without informing the Committee.

Ms Mocumi wanted to know the relevance of the “copy and paste” slide relating to the 10 point checklist for compliance with the Domestic Violence Act, and how exactly it tied in to the Committee’s recommendation.

Maj Gen Pienaar said this was not a “cut and paste”, but a combination of all instructions under the national instructions, which showed a shorter and more concise checklist for SAPS members.

Mr Stubbe questioned the training of members in the Domestic Violence Learning Programme, asking which years the targets were referring to. In relation to Crime Intelligence, he asked if the posts would be filled before the end of the financial year.
Maj Gen Pienaar explained there was a target per annum, dating back to 1999,when the Act first came into operation.

Maj Gen  Zulu said all outstanding posts would be filled by the close of the 2013/14 financial year.

Ms D Sibiya (ANC) asked for the deadline of the rollout of the PCEM system for SAPS Stores 13 at all stations.  

Ms Sibiya asked what criteria would be used to identify the provincial commissioners dealing with domestic violence.

Maj Gen  Pienaar said the criteria included a member being trained in domestic violence, working with victim services, who understood the processes and basically being an experienced member in the environment, although there was not necessarily a specification as to rank.

Ms Molebatsi asked why career pathing was not mentioned in the progress report, as it had been one of the recommendations of the Committee.

Ms Molebatsi also enquired about the progress on pocketbooks.
Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) was confused about the SIU investigations references and asked how many were ongoing, including the one on TETRA. She asked if any investigations were completed and, if so, what had been the outcome?

Ms Kohler-Barnard wanted to know the deadlines on firearms and when they were expected. She repeated the Chairpersons’ concerns that this merely looked like a wish-list.

Mr Ndlovu wanted to know about vetting and asked at which level it was completed, commenting that there were numerous officials, from top to bottom levels, who were not vetted. He wanted specifically to know how many were vetted at the top level.

The Chairperson said the types of questions asked by Members indicated the lack of detail in the presentation, and repeated that there was no real progress cited. In relation to the firearms, she also noted that the figures in this presentation differed from the limited figures provided in the Annual Report and this raised questions as to how reliable the presentation was. She asked SAPS to respond if it could, although said that most of the answers should be provided by way of an improved document.

Mr Groenewald sought clarity on steps taken against members who had lost firearms.

Ms Mocumi noted that the checklist still did not address the Committee’s recommendation.

The Chairperson agreed that most of the progress cited was not in line with the Committee’s recommendations. She reiterated that SAPS would be given by the end of Friday to provide the Committee with a reworked document, showing clear deadlines, on what was done and what still needed to be done.
Ms D Chili (ANC) wondered if the firearms were getting lost daily and asked what measures were taken to reduce the loss of firearms, whether these losses were budgeted for and how and where these firearms were being lost.

The Chairperson wanted SAPS to provide a detailed breakdown on the firearm issue.

Lt Gen Schutte said a written, structured and comprehensive response on loss of firearms would be provided.

Lt Gen Gary Kruser, Divisional Commissioner: Supply Chain Management, SAPS, explained that these figures were consistent and verified. There was a significant reduction in the loss of firearms. The major losses had shifted from stores, which had been the major concern, to personal firearms of individual members. HR had put disciplinary measures in place to deal with members who had lost firearms, and criminal cases would also be opened by the detectives. Budgeting for firearms was conducted on a needs basis. In the last financial year, no firearms were bought, as none were needed. However, he confirmed that a detailed breakdown would be provided to the Committee.

The Chairperson summarised that Members were not happy with what had been provided, especially when compared to what the Committee received in August. She had expected a clear precise document with targets and a clear statement of what had already been done, so that the next Committee could follow up. The Committee staff would brief and inform the incoming Committee. She urged the Department to stop “trying to be smart” because they were not doing the country a favour, and instead they merely needed to comply with what had been requested.

UN Security Committee proclamations dealing with Taliban and Al-Qaeda  
Maj Gen Philip Jacobs, Legal Services, SAPS, noted that after September 11 terrorist attacks, the UN Security Council had taken a resolution  that the names of suspected Taliban or Al Qaeda terrorists must be listed on a consolidated list, to enable UN Member states to take the necessary steps to ensure that travel prohibitions were placed on these individuals and so they would be prevented from  obtaining firearms or financial support. The list was then also published in the Government Gazette, by the Office of the President, whenever the United Nations Security Council updated its list, in terms of local legislation. Every shall be tabled in Parliament for its consideration and decision and Parliament may thereupon take such steps as it may consider necessary. There were two Gazettes dealt with here – the first was dated 23 July with ten different publications and proclamations related to changes to the consolidated list, while the second gazette was 20 September 2013 with only two proclamations listed.

He noted that currently no South Africans were affected by a listing. Since the list was instituted, only one person had been implicated, who was actually a Libyan deported wrongly to South Africa. Any change in the list would be pointed out the Committee and it was recommended the Committee approve the proclamations.

The Committee adopted the necessary resolution.

The meeting was adjourned. 


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