MTN issue: Legal advice, E-Skilling SA: Department of Communications briefing

This premium content has been made freely available

Communications and Digital Technologies

29 May 2012
Chairperson: Mr E Kholwane (ANC)
Share this page:

Meeting Summary

Members had, in a previous meeting, questioned whether the Portfolio Committee had a role to play in the MTN matters, which were seen as bringing the country into disrepute. The Parliamentary Legal Advisors had been asked to consider whether the Committee had a role to play or any jurisdiction to intervene. They noted that section 55 of the Constitution defined the scope of the portfolio committees, and that their powers of oversight were limited by the Rules. Whilst section 56 allowed Parliament to call in organisations to give evidence, the fact remained that MTN was a private company, with an international trade focus, and had no direct links to the Department of Communications (DOC). For this reason the Legal Advisors believed that it fell outside the scope of the Committee. One Member complained that this interpretation was too narrow, and the incident had caused embarrassment. However, others suggested that market forces should be left to sort themselves out, that Parliament already had enough other responsibilities, and that the most that could be done was to engage with the Independent Communication Authority of South Africa, to see whether any licence conditions had been breached, or to approach the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry to enquire whether any irregularities were apparent. If ethical and legislative requirements had been transgressed, this was a matter for another forum. Members agreed to approach the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry.

The briefing on e-skilling by the e-Skills Institute, a programme within the DOC, reported that it aimed to make South Africans e-literate by 2030. This would be done by leveraging e-capabilities in the public and private sectors, to address socio-economic needs and improve the human resource base. Challenges included the fact that the current ICT situation was varied, unstructured and uncoordinated, whilst the education sector was not providing enough workers in this sector. Part of the problem was identified as the reactive approach, which meant that skills were developed only after the technology was widely available. The DOC saw itself as a strategic social and economic enabler. A multi-stakeholder network model had been developed, together with an e-skills delivery model, human resources development workplan and plans to forge links between universities and industries.

Members thought that the initiative was good, but several commented that it was very ambitious. They were concerned as to how targets would be measured, and whether there was a qualifications framework and a national standard. One suggestion was that the initiative be located in the Office of the President, to uplift the entire country. The major problem was that at the moment, departments still tended to see ICT as a side-issue, and were operating in silos. It was recognised that it was necessary to address inequalities in access, the urban/rural divide, and consider how the vast rural areas that were presently unreachable could be given access. Members drew a number of examples from what was being done internationally and suggested that whilst good lessons could be learned, it was nonetheless necessary to consider a solution that would meet South Africa’s specific needs. One Member was very much in favour of companies being asked to supply on-the-job training. He also cautioned that whilst technology was important it could be perceived as, and in fact pose the risk of encouraging unemployment if one computer could take over the work of several individuals. Other Members commented that changes in mindset were needed about e-knowledge had to occur, including introducing it early in the school curriculum. Members asked who was to invest in the initiative, and noted that widespread marketing would be needed. They also said that measurable rollout plans would be needed, that the software sector was pleading to be provided with platforms, and that all universities would have to be capacitated.

The Committee discussed its programme, and adopted oversight reports on visits to the Northern Cape, the West Coast and the City of Cape Town.

Meeting report

MTN Issues: Briefing by the Parliamentary Legal Adviser
The Chairperson noted that Ms M Shinn (DA) had sought legal advice about whether the MTN issues raised recently fell within the mandate and oversight jurisdiction of the Portfolio Committee. The Parliamentary Legal Advisors had been asked to answer those questions.

Dr Barbara Loots, Parliamentary Legal Adviser, noted that the scope of the portfolio committees was defined in section 55 of the Constitution. The oversight was also limited by the Rules. She noted that MTN was a private company, with no links or direct liaison to the Department of Communications (DOC). Parliament had the power to call upon organisations to give evidence. However, although it operated within the communications terrain, it must be remembered that MTN was a private company with an international trade focus. It was therefore the opinion of the Parliamentary Legal Advisors that MTN fell outside the scope of the Portfolio Committee’s oversight programme.

Discussion
Ms M Shinn (DA) found that to be a narrow interpretation. MTN was licensed to operate through an entity of the DOC. She noted that MTN could become a proxy for government in Iran. Whilst Dr Loots had focused upon section 55, section 56 was wide and powerful, and granted Parliament the right to summon anyone, and compel them to comply with the summons. She believed that this issue had to be taken further by other means, since the incident was an embarrassment to South Africa.

Mr C Kekana (ANC) remarked that it was often said that the free market system had to be left alone, and market forces should be allowed to sort themselves out. The government used the public sector as a sphere of influence. The private sector could sell wherever there was a market and the private sector could also sell to government. He pointed out that it would not be possible to tell Anglo American, for example, not to cut diamonds in India. It was a reality that the large companies in South Africa did what they wanted.

Ms J Killian (COPE) agreed with Mr Kekana, except in regard to the specific role of Parliament. She had long been concerned about Parliament overstepping its mandate by calling in “everybody”. Parliament had huge responsibilities of its own, and did not need to go looking for work. She was certainly, like Ms Shinn, concerned about business practices in MTN, but she suggested that the most that this Committee could do would be to engage with the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa (ICASA) to see what licence conditions might have been overstepped. MTN had to be allowed its day in court to explain about ethical considerations. This had happened in another country, and had already brought South Africa into disrepute. The limitations of the Portfolio Committee had to be accepted, but the issue could be followed up through other means.

Ms R Morutoa (ANC) agreed with her two colleagues that it would be correct for Parliament to attempt to increase responsibility where it was not needed. She thought it possible for the Committee, however, to at least invite MTN to explain what had happened, in view of the implications for the country.

The Chairperson said that he had pointed out to the Parliamentary Legal Advisors that section 56 of the Constitution was also relevant to the issue. He was also, however, in favour of pursuing the matter by other means.

Ms Shinn agreed with Ms Morutoa that MTN could, at the least, be invited to come and explain the position to the Committee.

Ms Killian suggested that ICASA be asked about regulations for registration. The Portfolio Committee certainly had a constitutional mandate to approach ICASA. She noted that the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry could also be asked if there had been irregularities, and if any ethical and legislative rules had been transgressed. This could have an impact on local industry.

Mr Kekana remarked that if the Portfolio Committee called MTN, other committees could follow that example and call in other private companies. Any company in South Africa needed a licence, and had to be registered with the formal sector for tax purposes. The big formal companies, despite this indirect link to government, could not be told where and how to do business. He agreed that companies would sell where opportunity presented itself, as in the case of former president Mobuto Sese Seko in Zaire.

The Chairperson suggested that the advice given be accepted, and that there should be discussions with the Portfolio Committee on Trade and Industry, who had oversight over the Companies Act.

E-skilling South Africa: Department of Communications briefing
Dr Harold Wesso, Director General: e-Skills Institute, said that the aim of the e-skills initiatives was to have South Africa e-literate by 2030. The e-Skills Institute was established by the DOC in 2008, and was not to be confused with e-Maraka, which had been established by the Department of Science and Technology, and which was managed by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR). The initiative aimed to leverage ICT capabilities to address socio-economic needs and to improve the human resource base. The major challenges facing South Africa were that the ICT infrastructure was varied, unstructured and uncoordinated. The education system was not producing enough people to work in the ICT sector, nor was it producing the required skills to advance the knowledge economy. The lack of central coordination of demand and supply made policy decisions difficult.

The DOC saw itself as a strategic social and economic enabler for a knowledge economy. There was, however, a need for a coordinated effort across all stakeholders, an integrated approach and a national research network for e-skills. A national multi-stakeholder network model had been created. There was an e-skills delivery model and a Human Resource Development workplan for the production of academics and a stronger industry-university partnership. Over the next five years, the e-Skills Institute aimed to deliver thought leaders, creative industries and more users across key sectors and communities.

Discussion
Ms Shinn said that the presentation was ambitious, and she was hoping that the matters outlined could be achieved. She said that this essentially came down to aggregating pockets of skills in the country. She asked if there were business models, and if a teacher, for example, could plug in and be paid. She asked who would be engaged to teach, and who would design curriculum content.

Dr Wesso replied that people had to get involved with the business model. Private sector partners had to understand that they were putting money in not only to fulfil a social responsibility obligation, but also to invest in their own business in the longer term. ICT could contribute to job creation. South Africa could not afford to engage in an intellectual property debate, since it was already clear that new models were emerging, very different from, for instance, writing books and being paid for that. Intellectual property had to be capable of being used, and the legacy of intellectual property for own use belonged to the industrial age.

Ms Shinn asked how the hubs listed in slide 10 had been determined. She also asked the rationale behind the decision that creative industry would be placed with Gauteng. Her final question was how the ambitious targets in the last slide would be measured.

Ms J Killian (COPE) remarked that it would be necessary to muster together a number of skills. She was also concerned that the targets presented seemed very ambitious, and hoped that this could succeed. She asked about a qualifications framework, and wondered whether the target of 45 PhD students was linked to any particular indicators of success. She too wanted to know how the targets had been compiled.

Dr Wesso responded that an e-skill model was being developed. Over the Medium Term Expenditure Framework (MTEF), there would be a study done into the twelve outcomes to determine the problems in the country and how to train people. Universities looked at the world from a scientific perspective. The DOC looked at government strategies. The question was how to evaluate responses to government goals. Both rural and urban provinces had to be considered, and some interesting work in that regard had been done already at UWC. A post-graduate Diploma in Skills Development and e-centre management was being developed. There had to be responses to local provincial needs. A curriculum developed in the Eastern Cape could also help the Western Cape. Some students were being sent to Seoul.

Ms Shinn asked how 45 PhD students were to be produced, and whether there was a degree course.

Ms Killian asked if it would be possible to adjust the national standard from time to time, and whether there would be enough local knowledge to do that. The Department of Communications would be the driving force but there was a role for the Department of Public Service and Administration. She asked about the possible role of the Ministry of Science and Technology. At the moment, the problem was that there were too many entities operating in silos.

Dr Wesso replied that adjusting the national standard over time was one of the problems foreseen. A period of five to six years was, relatively speaking, very long in ICT terms.

Ms Killian remarked that the country could do well to follow the example of South Korea, and locate the initiative in the Office of the President, so as to uplift the entire country. She asked if the DOC had the support of other departments. She commented again that many government departments had a silo-driven approach, and the question was how to break that down. She asked about the inclusion of Universal Service Access Agency of South Africa (USAASA) centres. The current internet used broadband penetration access to computers. A communication action environment had to be achieved. Vast rural areas were unreachable. There had to be facilities of different departments used, for inclusive systems like hospitals.

Dr Wesso responded that the project was indeed ambitious, but it was driven by reality. He noted that if there was not involvement by the private sector and Non-Government Organisations (NGOs) it would not  succeed. The DOC would drive the process. Cuba had established an e-knowledge university in 2002, which grew rapidly. Fidel Castro had met the building team once a week, to be informed about progress, and currently there were 50 000 students. In India and Malaysia, there had been national drives to establish qualifications and skills frameworks. There was nothing similar in South Africa. The profiles of jobs needed for the knowledge economy had to be defined, as South Africa did not yet know to what ends exactly the skills were needed. National skills frameworks were required.

Ms Killian remarked that currently, inequality still prevailed. There were serious gaps, and the urban/rural divide had to be bridged. The country had to be covered in total, to prepare for a new generation of learners. She quipped that “e-literate” unfortunately sounded like “illiterate”. South Africa had a window of opportunity for e-skilling, but all role players had to come on board.

Mr Kekana mentioned that there was a unique training institution in Japan. There were 700 tertiary centres, mostly in science and technology. In South Africa, it would be very useful to follow the example of Germany, where 60% of the population there do vocational and on- the-job training, sponsored by companies. Mercedes Benz would take in people directly after matric, and train them further. However, there was reluctance to doing that in South Africa, where people tended to be “bombarded” with theory.

Dr Wesso responded that the country had thus far been reactive in terms of emerging technologies, in the sense that it waited for technology to happen and only then came up with skills. There had to be a major national intervention, where all would work together to pool financial and human resources. Companies could provide people for training. In Mexico, there was a national hub with a centre in each province, and that model was implementable in South Africa. E-centre training had been piloted in the Western Cape, and skilling could be done from Cape Town for a remote area like Riemvasmaak.

Mr Kekana remarked that there was a fear of technology in the third world, and the same was true of South Africa. One of the greatest fears was that technology replaced people, since a computer could, for example, replace five administrators. This was a risk in the third world, because it had the potential to contribute to unemployment. He advised that the country should not rush to import ideas from overseas. Instead, it should concentrate on programmes specific to its needs: for instance, in Limpopo, in the agricultural sector people had to be taught how to fertilise and plant. Local technology had to be people-oriented. If it could create jobs in Limpopo, for instance, it would move fast. If foreign imports failed to help South Africa, it would be a slow process.

Dr Wesso replied that technology would indeed get rid of industrial age jobs, but it would build new skills for the youth. ICT already played a strong part in development in the Eastern Cape, especially in developing entrepreneurs in rural areas. It was important to get own students for local applications. There were pockets of excellence across the country. He agreed that local content must be imported into any foreign-designed technologies. There were multiple platforms besides TV. There had to be new skills and learnerships. Money could be pushed into the rural areas. It was no use if people were skilled in Mpumalanga, and then had to move to Johannesburg for work.

Ms R Lesoma (ANC) asked how a way could be found to coordinate different departments. There had to be a re-engineering of community members’ values to make it possible to introduce e-skilling early in life. She was happy about the fact that the experience of countries like Mexico and India had been observed. She asked about the role of the internet in the SKA Information Laboratory.

Ms Lesoma asked who would invest in the project besides government. It was essential not to neglect rural areas. Marketing had to be done at the levels of village, town, township and city.

Dr Wesso agreed that there had to be a mindset change. The DOC had gone to the West Coast to build a laboratory. Children were taught technology there in the morning, and in the afternoon parents were brought in, so that there could be communication between parents and children. Each child could reach five other people in the household.

Ms Z Ndlazi (ANC) said that the educational system was not producing enough preparation for e-skilling. The process had to start at the primary level. Exposure to e-knowledge in the rural areas was limited.

Ms R Morutoa (ANC) found the presentation excellent. She remarked that young people did not yet understand the importance of e-knowledge. There had to be a focus on inter-departmental relations, and a move away from the concept of working in silos.

Dr Wesso responded that the DOC did not want overlaps, as that would lead to fighting. The DOC would not duplicate university degrees. It was better practice to get the university voluntarily to adopt the concepts.

Mr G Schneemann (ANC) remarked that there was as yet no real urgency about e-skills. He said that Dr Wesso had spoken beyond the business plan. A rollout plan was needed that was measurable. In regard to finance, he noted that there would be partnerships with the private sector. He asked if there was a budget already set. It had been mentioned in the media that, compared to Namibia, South Africa was “dithering” with e-infrastructure.

Dr Wesso replied that he had visited Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda and Ethiopia to see what they were doing to improve in rank. Namibia had a College for Open Education and South Korea had an e-business college. The finance model for a typical university was an expanded finance model. Savings in the DOC had grown, through getting partners involved. Government was paying the private sector money, and the private sector would be happy to become involved if there was a defined plan, and if it could be seen as an investment in their own business. Other countries offered courses in culture, history and international politics, to expand knowledge about the future work environments. Problem solving and critical thinking were taught.

The Chairperson said that there had been a meeting with the software sector the previous week but this sector had complained that it was not being given a conducive environment by government, and had pleaded that DOC give the sector a platform. There were high-quality black IT graduates who could not be absorbed. Software solutions to the six government priorities had to be found. The question was how the Portfolio Committee could take issues forward. Academics were complaining that government did not respond. USAASA had said that it would roll out access points and provide 500 megabytes per month.

Dr Wesso responded, with regard to the USAASA rollout, that it was necessary to decide what kind of technology had to be put in centres to make them usable. It had been decided not to go for dial-up connection, but to rather have 200 appropriate centres. There was infrastructure for software development. The question was how to get software innovations. Social entrepreneurs were needed who understood the community and could develop software for them. It was necessary also to find out what problems were experienced on a daily basis, and how software could help people deal with those. The software developer in the townships could be part of a worldwide team. The right resources had to be obtained from the right people.

Dr Wesso continued that the role of the Portfolio Committee was pivotal. Other departments did not think about IT in the same way as the DOC did, but tended to regard it rather as an “add-on”.

The Chairperson remarked that further engagements were needed. Other departments had to be understood, to avoid falling into silo traps. The DOC had to engage with disadvantaged universities in deep rural areas. There were many challenges. Local people were flocking to urban universities, leaving the rural universities to be filled by people from outside the country.

Dr Wesso replied that the real world was simulated in one building in the Strand, and invited the Committee to visit that building. He noted that there had already been engagement with  Walter Sisulu University in the Eastern Cape and Polokwane University, in Limpopo. Good work had been done in KwaZulu Natal already. However, there was a problem of insufficient lecturers in the country.

The Chairperson asked if there was an organogram for the e-skills institute.

Dr Wesso responded that the e-skills institute was still a branch in the DOC.

Committee programme
Members discussed vacancies and appointments in ICASA and the South African Broadcasting Association (SABC). They noted that the week of 4 to 8 June was scheduled as a Committee week, and the next term would start with a Committee and oversight week.

Ms Killian asked that the programme be reconsidered.

Several other members commented that there could be Parliamentary obligations that could conflict with oversight.

The Chairperson noted that 4 to 8 June had already been approved for oversight, but 18 to 22 June had not.

Committee’s Oversight Reports: Adoption
Mr Kekana noted that the community surrounding the Square Kilometre Array (SKA) Telescope site were very excited about it, but the public needed to know what the benefits to South Africa of hosting the array  would be. He suggested that it should be communicated that the Committee had visited the area.

Ms Killian asked what value for money was obtained from the oversight visits, and how much impact the visits and subsequent reports had on the Executive.

The Chairperson opined that 80 to 90% of oversight recommendations were implemented.

Mr Kekana felt that the Portfolio Committee was the only entity that could make sure that things were done.

Members then adopted the Committee’s oversight reports on visits to the Northern Cape, West Coast and the City of Cape Town.

The meeting was adjourned.

Present

  • We don't have attendance info for this committee meeting

Download as PDF

You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.

See detailed instructions for your browser here.

Share this page: