South African Police Service 2010/11 Annual Report: Crime Intelligence; Protection and Security

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17 October 2011
Chairperson: Ms L Chikunga (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Portfolio Committee on Police continued its close scrutiny of each programme of the South African Police Service Annual Report 2010/11. Programme 4: Crime Intelligence had two sub-programmes: Crime Intelligence Operations and Intelligence and Information Management. The presentation looked at Expenditure and Actual Performance against Targets. The purpose of this programme was to manage crime intelligence and analyse crime information, and provide technical support for investigations and crime prevention operations. The biggest expense was compensation for its 8 723 personnel. The next priority was equipment and operational expenses. This programme achieved all of its targets. It cited a number of its successes, amongst others, the detection of a crystal meth laboratory in Sandton, the seizure of large volumes of drugs and the arrest of some of the people responsible for the ATM bombings.

The purpose of Programme 5: Protection and Security Services was to provide protection and security services to all identified dignitaries and government interests. This programme spent R2.1 billion in 2009/10 and R3.1 billion in 2010/11. The number of personnel decreased to 16 722. This programme was responsible for 53 land ports, eight sea ports, one dry port and 10 international airports. The capacity of the designated commercial ports increased with the result that it needed more vehicles and equipment. The programme had five sub-programmes:
▪ Sub-programme 1: VIP Protection Services: the objective was to minimize security violations by protecting the President, the Deputy President, former Presidents and other VIPs while in transit. The target of zero breaches had not been achieved, because there was one incident where security had been breached.
▪ Sub-programme 2: Static and Mobile Security: the objective was to minimize security violations of VIPs and their property, and other identified government buildings, as well as valuable cargo. There were eight breaches of security in 2010/11 compared to 13 in 2009/10. The target had not been achieved.
▪ Sub-programme 3: Port of Entry Security: the objective was to secure ports of entry by focusing on arrests and seizures in respect of crime syndicates smuggling drugs, firearms, vehicles and other illegal goods, violations of the Immigration Act, corruption and marine life resources. The indicator was the number of planned crime prevention and combating actions to enhance national security. In 2010/11 4 008 planned crime prevention and combating actions took place and the target was exceeded due to the intensive 2010 FIFA World Cup and festive season operations.
▪ Sub-programme 4: Rail Policing: the objective was to combat crime in the railway environment. The indicator was rate of contact crime in the railway environment. The target was to reduce it by 8.5%. It was achieved by more visibility in the railway environment plus more personnel were deployed in 2010/11.
▪ Sub-programme 5: Government Security Regulator: the objective was to regulate physical security in the government sector and strategic installations. The indicator was the degree of compliance with the institutional framework. The target had not been achieved.

Members had received the "SAPS written responses to MPs' questions" (asked at previous meetings) and these were interrogated in detail by the Committee. Some of the detailed discussion included Members asking whether it was true that SAPS gave former Gauteng Crime Intelligence head, Joey Mabasa, a R3.5m golden handshake as well as a monthly pension while he was under criminal investigation as a result of his links with known international criminals; how SAPS was going to retrieve the money if Mr Mabasa was found guilty; what the criteria were for a police member to become a detective; why police officers at border posts were not rotated regularly and why unions protested against rotation; what was being done about ATM bombings in rural areas; why non-performance was rewarded with promotion in SAPS; how a helicopter costing R30m, was purchased, but was not reflected in any Annual Performance Plan or MTEF reports since 2009/10; why the distribution of firearm licences was such a challenge for SAPS; whether irritation in the Hawks about ex-Scorpion members was getting better; what happened to the cases the Hawks took over from the Scorpions; whether the 40 000 case backlog at forensic labs had been dealt with.

Meeting report

Programme 4: Crime Intelligence
Lieutenant General Godfrey Lebeya, SAPS Deputy National Commissioner (DNC), noted the purpose of this programme was to manage crime intelligence and analyse crime information, and provide technical support for investigations and crime prevention operations. The sub-programmes were Crime Intelligence Operations, and Intelligence and Information Management. Crime Intelligence Operations spent R750 336 million in 2010/11 (R642 015 million in 2009/10). Intelligence and Information Management spent R1 197 290 million in 2010/11 (R1 016 003: 2009/10). The total spending on the programme for the FY 2010/11 was R1 947 626 million (R1 658 018: 2009/10). The biggest expense was compensation for its 8 723 personnel. The next priority was equipment and operational expenses.

To report on Actual Performance against Targets, the first indicator was the number of cluster and ad-hoc actionable intelligence operations on contact crime reduction. A total of 24 384 operations were conducted in 2010/11 compared to 24 368 in 2009/10. The target was surpassed. The second indicator was the number of crime intelligence products relating to: operational analysis reports – profiles, analysis reports, communication analysis reports, communication interception analysis reports. The target was 62 500. For FY 2010/11 the figure was 115 877.The target was achieved due to an increase in the gathering, collating and analysis of intelligence information during the hosting of the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

The third indicator was the number of research reports, statistical reports and station and cluster intelligence reports. The target was 78 000. For 2010/11 the figure was 202 099. The drastic increase was the result of intelligence gathering aimed at the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

The Crime Intelligence Programme was divided into different desks: Contact and General Crime Desk, Counter Terrorism Desk, Border Integrity Desk, Protective Intelligence Desk, Domestic Intelligence Desk and Financial and Cybercrime Desk, each specializing in a different category of crime (see document).

The presentation ended citing a number of its successes, amongst others, the detection of a crystal meth laboratory in Sandton, the seizure of large volumes of drugs and the arrest of some of the people responsible for ATM bombings.

Programme 5: Protection and Security Services
The purpose of Programme 5: Protection and Security Services was to provide protection and security services to all identified dignitaries and government interests. This programme spent R2.1 billion in 2009/10 and R3.1 billion in 2010/11. The number of personnel decreased to 16 722. This programme was responsible for 53 land ports, eight sea ports, one dry port and 10 international airports. The capacity of the designated commercial ports increased with the result that it needed more vehicles and equipment. The programme had five sub-programmes:
▪ Sub-programme 1: VIP Protection Services: the objective was to minimize security violations by protecting the President, the Deputy President, former Presidents and other VIPs while in transit. The target of zero breaches had not been achieved, because there was one incident where security had been breached.
▪ Sub-programme 2: Static and Mobile Security: the objective was to minimize security violations of VIPs and their property, and other identified government buildings, as well as valuable cargo. There were eight breaches of security in 2010/11 compared to 13 in 2009/10. The target had not been achieved.
▪ Sub-programme 3: Port of Entry Security: the objective was to secure ports of entry by focusing on arrests and seizures in respect of crime syndicates smuggling drugs, firearms, vehicles and other illegal goods, violations of the Immigration Act, corruption and marine life resources. The indicator was the number of planned crime prevention and combating actions to enhance national security. In 2010/11 4 008 planned crime prevention and combating actions took place and the target was exceeded due to the intensive 2010 FIFA World Cup and festive season operations.
▪ Sub-programme 4: Rail Policing: the objective was to combat crime in the railway environment. The indicator was rate of contact crime in the railway environment. The target was to reduce it by 8.5%. It was achieved by more visibility in the railway environment plus more personnel were deployed in 2010/11.
▪ Sub-programme 5: Government Security Regulator: the objective was to regulate physical security in the government sector and strategic installations. The indicator was the degree of compliance with the institutional framework. The target had not been achieved.

The Chairperson asked the delegation about allegations in the media on 16 October 2011.
[- According to the website, Former Crime Intelligence (CI) boss Joey Mabasa, who was under police investigation for bribery and corruption over his links to Radovan Krejcir, was this week given a R3.5m golden handshake. Police announced a few weeks ago that Mabasa had been “discharged” because “his services were no longer needed and because it was in the interest of the service to discontinue his job”.
- There allegedly existed a R200m-a-year Crime Intelligence secret fund, officially called the Secret Service Account. There were also allegations that money from the secret fund were used to pay a R22 000 dinner bill at a Johannesburg seafood restaurant for a group of police men, amongst others.

The Hawks team found several examples where top police officers appointed family members and friends in Crime Intelligence or registered them as agents and informants.
- Two Crime Intelligence policemen were robbed of R2.2m in the middle of the day in downtown Johannesburg after they had drawn money from the secret fund. They were held up at the Xavier Road off-ramp in Johannesburg on Friday last week, City Press reported.]
The Chairperson said that the Committee had asked those questions the previous year. Currently these allegations were in the newspapers. She asked the head of National Intelligence whether there was any truth to the stories. Was the money used for any other purposes than it was meant for?

National Commissioner Cele replied that it was an operational matter. It could not be discussed in an open meeting.

The Chairperson said that former Deputy National Commissioner Hamilton Hlela had been replaced. Who had replaced him?

Nat Com Cele replied that Lt Gen Lebeya replaced him. Covert funds were controlled by Joint Intelligence. The AG also assigned specially vetted personnel to work there. He asked: ”How far do we go regarding open reporting on covert activities?”

Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked how the ex-head of Gauteng Crime Intelligence (CI), Joey Mabasa, who was suspended and under investigation was given a golden handshake of R3.5 million plus his pension for 14 years. He was dismissed from the SAPS. Why did the report not say anything about it?

SAPS Deputy National Commissioner, Lt Gen Magda Stander, Head: Human Resource Management, replied that Joey Mabasa was not the national head of Crime Intelligence, he was the Gauteng head of Crime Intelligence. He had been transferred temporarily to the Crime Intelligence HQ as a result of allegations of a criminal investigation that was currently underway. She said these were allegations, the case was sub judice and she could not comment on them. Internally, SAPS tried to institute disciplinary procedures against Mabasa, but could not find tangible evidence in terms of the disciplinary regulations, to take any disciplinary steps against him. The media reported that SAPS paid him R3.5m. This was incorrect. The media reported that he would be paid up until the age of 60. This was also incorrect. SAPS terminated his services as the National Commissioner indicated. SAPS only paid his actual benefits in terms of the SAPS Act, the Government Service Pension Act as well as according to the pinciples in the Basic Conditions of Service Act. From the SAPS budget he was paid R1 097 503. From the Government Employees Pension Administration Agency the amount of R 1 137 802 was due to him of which 40% would be deducted as tax. He was never suspended.

The Chairperson asked what Section 35 meant in this case.

Lt Gen Stander replied that the benefits she explained were the benefits Mr Mabasa qualified for in terms of Section 35.

The Chairperson asked if a person whose services had been terminated in terms of Section 35, qualified for a monthly pension.

Lt Gen Stander replied that everybody whose services had been terminated in terms of Section 35 would also receive a monthly pension.

Ms van Wyk said that there were three reasons why Section 35 would apply: restructuring, efficiency and the interests of the organisation. Earlier it was stated that you did not get funding for the post he was sent to. How did you give somebody a post that did not exist? Which one of the reasons for applying Section 35, applied in this case?

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked whether Section 35 still applied when somebody was under criminal investigation. She did not see how the three instances which would justify invoking Section 35, applied to someone under criminal investigation.

Mr Schneeman asked on how many years’ service had Mr Mabasa‘s benefits been calculated.

Lt Gen Stander, replied that Mr Mabasa had been temporarily transferred to Crime Intelligence HQ. His post could not be kept open indefinitely, because of the challenges with posts in Gauteng Province. Subsequently the Crime Intelligence environment underwent some restructuring, and the post that he was in before, had been abolished. His services had been terminated in terms of Section 35(a) because of the abolition of a post, or the reduction in the numerical strength, the re-organisation or the re-adjustment of the service. These were the reasons for applying Section 35 to terminate his service. He had completed 29 years of service. In terms of the Government Employees Pension Fund (GEPF), and the Basic Conditions of Service Act regulations, in the end he qualified for 34 years of service. These calculations were made in terms of the GEPF rules.

She said, regarding the criminal investigation, that at this stage, these were allegations and it was sub judice and she could not comment on it, and the law had to take its course. The termination and the criminal investigation were two separate issues.

The Chairperson asked why it was possible for HR to transfer Mr Mabasa from Gauteng Crime Intelligence to Crime Intelligence HQ, but it was impossible to transfer him to another station or posting.

Lt Gen Stander said that the possibility was there, but management thought that it was in the best interest of the organisation to terminate his services and abolish the post. Section 35 made provision for it. Section 35 had not been abused. It had only been used 19 times in the history of SAPS.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked what would happen if Mr Mabasa was found guilty? This was sweeping a criminal investigation under the carpet. How was SAPS going to get the money back? She was gobsmacked! Dumbfounded! She could not believe that SAPS dealt with a criminal case by paying the man off.

The Chairperson said that the questions that had not been answered could be answered by SAPS in writing by Friday 21 October 2011, when the report would be adopted. She told the National Commissioner that she was not happy with the state of affairs in Crime Intelligence.

The Chairperson said that Section 35 had been misused. It was used to get rid of any person. If the person had to leave SAPS, this was an option, at huge cost to the taxpayer. As a taxpayer, she was unhappy that her tax was used to support people who could work, but were sitting at home, terminated in terms of Section 35. If she could revolt against it, she would. It was a way to get rid of people who actually had to be disciplined or fired for non-performance. It was becoming a trend at senior management level. If the trend continued, the Committee had to decide on a resolution around Section 35. It could come down to the Committee not approving the budget for SAPS, in which case SAPS would have to decide how it was going to handle the matter. The Committee did not agree with the way the budget was used in this case. The Committee wanted to know the amount per month and per financial year and the amount paid to the people by the time they reached retirement age. Management could have waited for the criminal case to be finalised, after which the internal process could have taken its course.

Ms Kohler-Barnard found the drop in drugs and stolen cars confiscated at borders confusing. Was it a question in visibility? Containers were used to send things back and forth. What about large amounts? Why the decrease of 50% in seizures?

The Chairperson said that she wanted to be briefed about Crime Intelligence. The Committee received a file last week alleging corruption. When management tried to move people around to make them rotate, the unions protested. They wanted people to remain at one port of entry. She went to Maseru and spoke to a personnel member on the Lesotho side who complained about corruption, only to be pointed out by another staff member as the kingpin of corrupt operations. What has the department doing to address this? The richest police personnel worked at the border posts. She asked what the Department was doing about border integrity and cross-border crime.

Nat Com Cele replied that last month there was the biggest bust by the Hawks. At the Lebombo border post, more than 24 people were arrested. They were not only SAPS members, but personnel of SARS, Departments of Health, Agriculture and Home Affairs. SARS were seen as the elite at the border posts. Operations were ongoing, but sometimes they were slow.

Mr Cele said Cabinet had taken a decision that SAPS had to take over OR Tambo. Currently it was run by private security companies. The American security people behaved as if they were the highest authority and they chased SAPS away from areas that they controlled. The Minister said nothing could be done about it.

There were several international security companies operating at OR, rejecting SAPS working in the area. OR Tambo was huge, followed by King Shaka and then Cape Town. South Africa had 1 100 ex-landing strips. Aircraft flew below the radar, landed and took off again. Technology needed to be improved. Scanners were needed to check trucks. Currently it was only possible to check 25% of a vehicle. It was impossible to off-load every truck with cargo. Criminals knew that only 25% of their vehicles would be checked, especially at busy border posts. In Japan cars were demobilized after five years. These were imported into SA, rejected and then sent back loaded with drugs and money. This was normal business. SAPS was working with the police of neighbouring countries, the Southern African Regional Police Chiefs Co-operation Organisation (SARPCCO). A lot of effort went into fighting corruption at the borders. What had increased was the seizure of drug factories inside the country for example in Gauteng. The border seizures had been reduced. There was a lot of internal drug industry in South Africa. In Waterkloof, big houses were used as drug factories as were smallholdings in other areas.

Deputy Commissioner Elias Mawela, Operational Response Services in charge of Border Control, added that, apart from the projects driven by the Hawks to target corruption at border posts, Home Affairs, SAPS and SARS, in consultation with State Security and Crime Intelligence, had embarked on a process in February 2010, of vetting all its officials whom it deployed to work at border posts and ports of entry. It was not only the police which had increased its numbers at border controls. Home Affairs had also increased its personnel at the commercial ports of entry. More active personnel also served as a deterrent to would-be criminals who tried to operate around or across the borders. There was awareness that all the ground was not covered before and was still not covered currently, but more was covered.

The Chairperson asked what preventative measures had been put in place to combat corruption at border posts. She was living near the Oshoek border post with Swaziland. Whatever measures were put in place, the corrupt officials were one step ahead.

Dep Com Mawela replied that SAPS had embarked upon an awareness campaign. One could not remove / rotate people to deploy them elsewhere. They would just take the problem elsewhere. SAPS would rather build cases against them and remove them from the payroll. Crime Intelligence and the Hawks had initiated special projects to detect corruption at the border posts. If personnel were removed, it would interfere with these projects.

Mr George said he did not understand the logic of keeping corrupt border officials in place with the aim of one day arresting them. At border posts they had the opportunity to be corrupt and by leaving them in place, they were basically given time to perpetrate their corruption. Could they not be removed to situations where there were fewer opportunities for corruption? As society developed, sin multiplied. The demand for drugs would not stop, despite education campaigns.

The Chairperson said that the station commanders and branch commanders were rotated. Why could the border personnel not be rotated?

Dep Com Mawela said that, going back to what Mr George had said, those members that had been arrested previously, those cases had been built over a long time. Sometimes SAPS was aware that an individual was engaging in unlawful activities, but the person was left in his position in order to build a case against him so strong that SAPS could be sure of a conviction when the case went to court. The unions agreed with this.

Rotation was allowed in the service. Members who wanted to leave the commercial ports of entry environment were allowed to leave and go and work at a station. New members were then brought in from the college to work at the border post. Some that were in the same position for many years, were the subjects of investigation. That was why they were allowed to stay there for so long. The unions were aware of this and they agreed. They did not protest against the rotation of members either.

Ms van Wyk asked why staff was not rotated and why staff were allowed to get so comfortable at border posts that they became the crime boss of that area. They became so entrenched that they ran the border, because they ran a profitable corrupt business there.

The Chairperson said that the Committee had been informed by the department in a meeting that when the department tried to rotate staff working at border posts, the union protested. The name of the border post was known. The union and the police members themselves protested to the degree that the department had to reinstate those members at their posts at the border. This was said in a meeting (and it would be reflected in the minutes) when the Committee had raised the matter in the past. The Committee understood why the members wanted their posts back at the border. They made money every day and every day they were away from the border, they lost money. She raised it because she lived in Mpumalanga near a border post that South Africa shared with Swaziland. People came from Swaziland to collect grants. They paid bribes to border personnel. She knew personally that the personnel still there had been there for ages.

Mr Ndlovu said that he did not want to say Dep Com Mawela was lying, but he was not telling the truth. Did it mean that management was dictated to by the unions?

Commissioner Cele replied by pleading with the Committee to allow the police space to do its work. The police had several projects running at border posts. Several government departments were represented at the borders and commercial ports of entry, like SARS, Departments of Home Affairs and Agriculture. It would disrupt these projects if police personnel were just rotated randomly. It helped investigations to go on undisturbed.

The Chairperson asked whether Nat Com Cele would give the Committee any timeframes.

Nat Com Cele replied that the investigation, as a result of which the 24 border personnel from different departments had been arrested, ran for almost five years. This was the nature of investigating syndicates and crime. He said that the documents, with which Swazi citizens were collecting pensions in South Africa, were produced there at the border post. There were many long term projects running there. Some of the officials involved were working at the HQ of SAPS and Home Affairs in Pretoria. He was informed about young police personnel refusing promotions. It was a dead giveaway, because police loved promotions and salary increases. He was going to leave them in their positions. These were slow snail-paced operations – if they were rushed, they failed.

The Chairperson thanked Nat Com Cele and said that a meeting would be called with all the different government departments deployed at border posts where all these matters would be discussed. She understood what he was saying, but it was worrying that these things were happening every day, every minute, and every hour. The country was losing billions in this way and it was worrying from a politician’s point of view.

Mr Ndlovu said that Crime Intelligence showed four successes. He wanted to find out about ATM bombings in rural areas.

Commissioner Cele said that ATM bombings happened every day. What had happened was the displacement of crime to areas that were easy targets. The rural areas were softer targets than the cities. SAPS was beginning to win on the outskirts. It had to develop new methods. A member’s technical response to the situation was important. He made the point of Bizana where the local police could not respond to the situation technically.

Commissioner Cele said that SAPS had arrested the 155 top ATM bombers. Half were on bail. Seuntjie van Wyk was a criminal who had 32 bails. He was accused of cash heists, bank robbery and rape. The same went for the Rolex gang. SAPS met with the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development on the bail issue. The police were frustrated with the bail matter. The person who killed the police member in Bizana was out on bail.

Lt Gen Lebeya replied that police members had been called to the scene of an ATM bombing and when they arrived, they were shot at. It did not only happen in Gauteng, but also in Limpopo. In Limpopo there had been arrangements for the police to patrol closer to the ATM. The Deputy at the time came to Gauteng to arrest them in Gauteng, assisted by police members in Gauteng. There had been that interaction. It was not always obvious because when the criminals were charged, all the different cases they were involved in were centralised and dealt with in one high court, for example Pretoria. At an ATM bombing incident in Vryheid, six criminals were arrested and two AK47s and one R5 rifle were confiscated. Three were killed, and R5 rifles and lots of ammunition were confiscated. At Makhado in December 2010, several pistols and a motor vehicle were confiscated.

The Commissioner for Crime Intelligence replied that ATM bombings shifting to the rural areas were explained by criminals taking advantage of soft targets. When the police closed them off in the urban areas, they went to the more vulnerable rural areas.

Ms van Wyk said that she did not have a real understanding of cybercrime and the capacity of SAPS to deal with it. She wanted to know how the police were doing with Financial Intelligence.

Lieutenant-General Anwar Dramat, Head of the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI), replied that the issue of cybercrime had been part of the delivery agreements. On this issue, they worked together with the Department of Communications, State Security, and those in the JCPS cluster. It was not necessarily led by SAPS, but the institutions mentioned looked jointly and collaboratively at cybercrime. SAPS have developed capacity within the DPCI and the Commercial Crime section to respond to cyber crime. It employed more skilled personnel to work in the cyber laboratories, to deal with evidence relating to cyber crime. There was also cyber crime capacity within the Crime Intelligence division. The section would elaborate on its efforts to build capacity to respond to cybercrime. There was also much cooperation and collaboration within industry, especially the banking sector, while SAPS was building its own internal capacity. There was also much cooperation and exchange of ideas and expertise with international policing partners. There had been offers of training from the FBI. There had been interaction and engagements with countries such as China.

SAPS had also engaged its HR division to begin to introduce the basics on the collection of digital evidence, so that the members on the ground could become familiar with the concepts and practice. It was a growing trend that criminal were making use of cyber space more and more to commit crime. In the Commercial Crime Unit, where most of the cyber crime investigations were conducted, the Hawks sent its members on what was called a first responder’s course where they were equipped with specialised equipment which would make it possible for them to respond to situations involving cyber crime. While there had been efforts to equip SAPS to deal with cyber crime, he understood that it still had a long way to go before it became proficient. The trend amongst criminals to use cyberspace to commit crime, would grow as the country became more advanced technologically.

Lt Gen Dramat said that suspicious financial transactions were reported to the Financial Intelligence Centre (FIC). Reports were generated by the FIC and there was coordination and communication of those reports with the police and specifically the Commercial Crime section, which took responsibility for coordination and distributing information and who made sure that it was investigated. There was good cooperation between the FIC and the police in the form of the Hawks. The FIC formed part of the anti-corruption task team that had been set up.

Ms van Wyk asked if there had been any arrests or any cases as a result of the FIC and if so how many.

Lt Gen Dramat replied that he did not have the information with him, but would check up on it and respond in detail. A case that came to mind was the
Mike Tannenbaum case [financial director of London Stock Exchange-listed Westcity Plc and brother of ponzi-accused Barry Tannenbaum. Email evidence implicated him in a financial fraud case]. This case was still under investigation and not in the prosecution phase as yet.

Rev Meshoe asked about the alleged abuse of informers on the West Rand. He knew about a case where the informer was used by his handler to sell drugs. He wanted to know if this was true and how many police members were involved. A little over a week ago, there was a report of police who arrested people who were busy offloading stolen TVs. Another police unit arrived and arrested the police who were arresting the thieves. He wanted an explanation.

Commissioner Cele said that caught and convicted criminal Jwagga (Jwarra) was going to be in jail for a long time.

Lt Gen Lebeya replied that, regarding the case of the Members from Organised Crime, Westrand, it would be reported today on the news that they had been convicted and they would be sentenced on 7 November 2011. The colonel had been convicted of eight counts, including racketeering which meant organised crime. He was also convicted for leading this group and all three had various charges levelled against them including theft, fraud and unlawfully dealing in scheduled medicines. There were other officials who would have been arrested during the course of dealing with hi-jacked goods, but the fact regarding this was at this stage not clear. An Intelligence Officer arrested during a hi-jacking had been arrested for dealing in fake cigarettes and it may be a separate case from the Westrand one.

Rev Meshoe asked the National Commissioner, whether he felt he was winning the war against drugs.

Commissioner Cele replied that drugs were an international scourge. There were wars on the high seas between the law enforcement agencies of the USA and drug smugglers from Central America. They now bought submarines to smuggle the drugs. It was an international phenomenon and it had to be an international war. There were top dogs arrested in the drug war. There was the seizure of highly sophisticated equipment. In December 2010, drugs to the value of R400 million were seized in Knysna. They used boats, yachts and scuba divers to move the drugs. It was a sophisticated operation. He was comfortable with SAPS’s achievements. Was one winning or losing when one seized more drugs? The volumes of seizures had increased in the Western Cape. There the problems were drugs as well as alcohol. He was comfortable that SAPS was doing well.

Rev Meshoe said that communities complained that they knew who sold the drugs. Why were there no raids? Why no surveillance?

Commissioner Cele replied that there were many instances of cooperation between community members and the police. In the Western Cape, the reaction of the communities came through one organisation. This organisation was formed in response to the inaction of the police. Some of the members of this organisation did work with the police. In Hanover Park, there was an increase in gang wars. Some of these wars were happening because of a shortage of drugs. This meant that the police activities were effective in the area. In Khayelitsha somebody got bail 45 times. This person did not reach the police cells. He committed the same crimes over and over again. There had to be corruption amongst the police and the magistrates.

Rev Meshoe said that there was a decrease in the seizure of drugs. The reason given was that new recruits were deployed at the ports of entry. He did not understand. He asked the National Commissioner why drug lords were not arrested. He had asked the previous National Commissioner the same thing who had said that drug lords were smart (implying smarter than the police).To the current National Commissioner he asked why was the drug epidemic increasing in the Western Cape. Was intelligence failing? The children were not safe. Could the police say that it was winning the war on drugs in the Western Cape?

Lt Gen Lebeya commented that the question: ‘Are we winning the war on drugs?’ could be posed to the police and the community in general and had to be answered by both. There was the demand and supply. The famous Chicago gang boss Al Capone said that he was like any other business man. He supplied a demand. When one dealer was arrested, others were glad because the market was open again and more dealers entered the market. According to the figures in the Annual Report (p89), in FY 2009/10 there were 134 840 drug-related charges reported. In FY 2010/11 there were 150 673 reported. The police were severing the supply chain by arresting dealers. The demand was big. People would need more education. If there was no demand, there would be no supply.

Ms van Wyk asked how Crime Intelligence was cooperating at station level with Visible Policing. How reliable was the information that Crime Intelligence received? At many stations, staff did not discuss things at the morning parade or have discussions about priority crime. Were there plans on how to improve the situation with priority crimes? Intelligence was the driver of police service achievements.

The Commissioner for Crime Intelligence replied that at the best performing police stations, the station commander, first thing in the morning, sat with the IO to discuss the crime picture for the area. It was the non-performing stations that were not doing this. It was not that there was no coordination between Crime Intelligence and the police

The Chairperson said that he was contradicting himself.

Ms Van Wyk said that at some stations they were doing it and at some not. What were the Commissioner, station managers, and people who appointed station managers doing to improve the situation?

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that the research had been done. Did management remove the station commanders that were not performing?

The Chairperson asked how the Committee was supposed to believe what the delegation reported as so many bad things were happening in these programmes.

Nat Com Cele replied that he did not want to sound prophetic, but SAPS had been established in 1913. Within two years it would be 100 years old. He had been commissioner for only two years. He had two years of influence versus 100 years of entrenched organisational culture. Maybe it would not reach the standard of satisfaction of the Committee within their lifetimes. He did not know whether SAPS had portfolio committees who grilled national commissioners in the past. He worked very hard with the Committee, but would not see the fruits.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that there had been a Portfolio Committee on Police for 15 years and she wanted to know whether SAPS had any 100 year old members. Commissioner Cele’s predecessors had gone through the same processes. The Committee was not picking on him as a person. The Committee was doing its job of holding him accountable. She found the attack quite bizarre.

Mr George said that the Committee did not expect SAPS to change overnight. The General in charge of Crime Intelligence told the Committee that the police stations where the station commander briefed the staff on the crime situation were more effective than the ones where there were no briefing sessions. The question was: What was done to oblige the station commanders at police stations to adopt the practice, where it was not done? It had nothing to do with history.

The Chairperson said that Nat Com Cele was the manager today. There had to be consequences for wrongdoing. There were no consequences. The past could not be blamed for that. She knew about the Elukwatini station commander whom she reported, who did not perform, but she was given a promotion anyway. She was now in charge of Visible Policing at the cluster commander’s office and was now intimidating her successor, who was much more effective than she was. She was promoted for non-performance. One could not blame the past for that. A decision made now was to be blamed for this.

She had questions about the Forensic Department. There were also people, who she could name, in Forensics who were promoted, who did not deserve their promotions. She could not accept such excuses. Members of Parliament were paid for their work and their work was oversight. She did not want to be paid for non-performance. It was untrue that the Committee did not acknowledge the positive aspects of the performance of SAPS. Each time she opened the meeting, she first mentioned the positive aspects. According to the Constitution, the Committee was responsible for holding the department accountable.

Ms van Wyk said when the Committee went on oversight visits, it made a point of pointing out instances of excellent performance and good practice at the station, at the cluster and at the province and in the reports of the Committee and sometimes with statements in the House. It did give credit where credit was due, but the issues the Committee was highlighting as unacceptable were issues that had been highlighted ten, five, three and two years ago, but had never been addressed adequately.

Nat Com Cele replied that he agreed that the Committee gave credit where it was due. He said that some people did not care about the history of SAPS, but he cared, because he was in trouble because of that history. When management tried to change some aspects of the entrenched culture of SAPS, there was resistance to it in the ranks. It was not only about a change of management, but about a change of mind as well. It was not true that SAPS only promoted managers. SAPS consisted of 193 000 people and there had been 19 800 promotions over the last two years.

The Chairperson said she had sent an email to Nat Com Cele about the ex-station commander at Elukwatini, to complain about her, but she still got promoted to the head of Visible Policing at the cluster level.

Ms van Wyk referred to a junior staff member who was in charge of the Sub 13 stores at Robertson police station. It was in a mess. She received a promotion. This demoralised people. Because it did not matter whether they performed, the person who got the promotion was the non-performer. Promotions had to be earned. The Committee asked who was promoted on the basis of what. What were the criteria for promotion? The National Commissioner was the accounting officer, but the he shared the responsibilities with the managers under his command. Did promotions happen on the basis of merit? The station commander at Witbank had a positive mindset, and wanted to change things for the better, but he was let down by the people who surrounded him. Why were people not held accountable for their omissions, for their commissions and for their actions?

Nat Com Cele said that 330 police members had been arrested in Gauteng alone, for criminal behaviour. In Mpumalanga there were 108 reprimanded and arrested. There were consequences for SAPS members when they transgressed.

Nat Com Cele replied that many people in SAPS had been conditioned to believe that they were useless. SAPS had to provide its members the space and opportunity to grow, to reach their full potential, but he agreed that there had to be consequences for bad behaviour. 4000 ex-members of SAPS, who resigned, decided to re-apply. It showed that SAPS meant something to people.

The Chairperson took cognisance of what Nat Com Cele had said, but reiterated that there were people who received promotions without earning them.

The Chairperson said that nobody could blame her for not performing. In the civil service an employee had a job description. When the person executed the duties described in his job description, he performed. Job enrichment had to be provided by the person himself. She herself initiated the hearings on the Annual Report of SAPS, because she felt in this way she would do justice to her task of holding a department accountable which had a budget of R58 billion. It was up to a person to free himself, and that South Africans freed themselves. It was up to the individual to do his job to the best of his ability and enrich it.

Ms van Wyk said that there had been huge expenditure on vehicles. R60m on fuel, R30m on maintenance and repair, and R30 million on telecommunications. There were 26 000 cell phones. How many vehicles? How many km? Crime Intelligence could track the vehicles. When the Committees visited police stations, detectives always complained that they could not get to sources due to a shortage of vehicles.

The Commissioner for Crime Intelligence replied that the unit had 1 937 vehicles and 56 429 721 litres of fuel had been used. He did not have the total kilometre reading.

Ms van Wyk said that according to the presentation, Crime Intelligence had 8 723 personnel. Were they all vetted?

The Commissioner for Crime Intelligence replied that all new staff had not been vetted because of a lack of staff resources to do the vetting. There were only 106 vetting members nationally and they had their priorities like DPCI, FCM ORS, PSS and the Ministry’s office.1 181 new appointments had recently been made and with the members that were recruited currently, it was capacitating the vetting environment.

The following questions were not answered
Ms Kohler-Barnard asked regarding VIP Protection for past presidents, did the services extend to wives and children for life? How far did it go and what happened when they separated.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked how many VIPs had long-term protection.

Mr Ndlovo was worried about the housebreaking and theft from Ministerial residences in the Western Cape and Gauteng.

Ms van Wyk shared the concern. The question had been also raised last year.

Mr V Ndlovu said that in 2010/11 there were eight security breaches. Where were those members who were on duty? How many police had been arrested that were involved in the ATM bombings? Were they prosecuted and fired? Were the police members involved in the cash-in-transit heists prosecuted and fired?

Mr M George asked how SAPS determined whether somebody needed protection or not. The Office of the Public Protector was harassed by the police themselves. How long did it take to make that decision?

Mr Lekgetho said regarding Crime Intelligence, that the presentation stated that the number of personnel had increased to 8 723. It did not say what it was before.

Mr Schneeman said that at the Gautrain he only saw private security. There was a SAPS office, but he never saw SAPS members there. Was SAPS involved with the Gautrain?

Mr George said that the presentation stated that railway crime decreased by 37%. People still hid their things when they got onto a train. Was crime still rife on trains? Where were the railway police? He had never seen police, only private security.

Rev K Meshoe remarked on domestic intelligence that he did not see corruption being made a focus area. It was a serious problem in South Africa. He asked about security in Parliament. Was there any form of Intelligence at Parliament? He knew about somebody that brought his firearm into Parliament in the evenings and he had seen strangers wandering around in Parliament at night.

The Chairperson said that the targets on Crime Intelligence were achieved because of the focus on the 2010 FIFA World Cup. Why was SAPS emphasizing the FIFA World Cup for these programmes?

Detective Services
Mr Schneeman asked how many detectives have not done the basic detective course.

Major General
Vineshkumar Monoo, Detective Services, replied that there were 20 720 detectives at station level and 15 000 had received training. 1384 would receive training during 2011/12, 1731 would receive this during 2012/13 and 1730 would receive this during 2013/14. This was catching up on the current backlog. New intakes would need continual training. 1477 of the Family Violence, Child Protection and Sexual Offences (FCS) Unit had training. There was a backlog of 387. 187 would have been trained by 30 September 2011. 102 would still be trained within the current financial year. 137 would be trained in the 2012/13 FY. 1418 have trained in the previous detective course.

Mr Schneeman said that when the Committee went on oversight visits to police stations, it found that many detectives had never undergone the basic detective training. He asked who decided and how was it decided that somebody was suitable to be a detective?

Gen Moonoo replied that the criteria to decide whether somebody was eligible to be a detective were basic training, one year service, a driver’s licence and psychological ability. Nobody was forced. Detectives were recruited at police stations. Interested candidates were taken on and trained.

Gen Moonoo said that the Basic Detective Course was a two week course every police officer underwent as part of his basic training. The backlog was in the 15 week intensive detective course, called the Rock course.

Ms van Wyk said that at “Yellow Bridge” Police station, the Committee found that detectives were not sending fingerprints through to the forensic labs. Where was the command and the control at detective level? What was being done about detective commanders that had not been trained? If they were trained, where were their performance agreements? Where was the performance agreement of the station commander? Why were these performance areas not made part of the performance agreement of the station and cluster commander? If it was, then she would have a serious problem with the fact that they were still in their positions. Was there a trained detective commander at every station? What was the backlog? When would it be fully addressed?

Gen Moonoo said that there was not a trained commander at every station. The backlog was available, but he did not have it with him currently. He would supply the training programme.

Ms Van Wyk asked how people could be appointed into positions they had not been trained for, as some commanders had no training as commanders.

Gen Moonoo said that appointments were made on the grounds of experience and natural leadership potential and ability. It was not necessary to have the training. They were trained eventually.

Mr Ndlovu said that he did not understand.

The Chairperson asked Gen Moonoo to sketch a scenario.
Gen Moonoo said that a member performed the role of commander in a group. When a post became available, he would get appointed. When a training opportunity became available, then the person went for training.

Ms van Wyk did not disagree. She understood Gen Moonoo was talking about appointments on merit versus appointment on qualifications, but career-pathing had to be done properly. Police complained. The Committee found a case where a branch commander had been in his position for seven years without training, which was unacceptable.

Gen Moonoo said that there were 176 FCS Units. Crimes against women and children were prioritised. Harsher sentences were given. SAPS worked with stakeholders. SAPS had programmes to focus on prevention. The FCS gave lectures and talks last year. The Department of Health, Social Development, Department of Justice, Court Prosecutors and Civil Society worked together on these issues. Detectives focused on repeat offenders and DNA matched links and follow-ups assisted in pinpointing identifying suspects

Mr Schneeman noted that the FCS units had been re-established. Were they fully functional? Were the resources in place for them to function? How many units were there before they were shut down and how many staff members were employed?

Mr Moonoo replied that before, 1 090 staff were employed in 66 units based in 43 areas, before. There were now 176 FCS units and they were resourced. They were fully functional. Physical resources were adequate.

Ms van Wyk asked whether the SAPS could give the Committee a figure on lost dockets. She had never seen such a mess. At Honeydew and “Yellow bridge” police station, the Committee found dockets lying in a basin in a kitchen, which were supposed to be in an archive. What was the figure for lost dockets?

Gen Moonoo replied that 100+ dockets were reported lost.

Ms Kohler- Barnard referred to the increase in drunken driving and drug related crimes, was this due to an increase in police action, or was it a result of an increase in both of those offences?

Gen Moonoo replied that the reason for the higher statistics in drunken driving cases was an increase in law enforcement by different agencies.

Mr Schneeman asked how many case dockets were handled by court officers?

Gen Moonoo replied that it differed from court to court. An average of 200-250 was handled. An average of 10-15 were sent back because the documentation required was not complete, for example, medical reports missing, subpoenas not filled in correctly.

Mr Schneeman asked how many case dockets were sent back?

Gem Moonoo replied that 10-15 case dockets were sent back for various reasons.

Mr Schneeman asked whether these were 10-15 dockets per case docketed officer, or for the whole country?

Gen Moonoo replied that it was 10-15 dockets per court at Pretoria Central where there were detective court case officers.

Mr Schneeman asked how many courts there were in South Africa. If there were 100 courts x 10 or 12 dockets, it amounted to 1000 to 1200 dockets sent back.

Gen Moonoo replied that every court did not have case officers. There were less than 116 courts countrywide.

Rev Meshoe said that there were 117 courts. Was anybody held accountable for lost case dockets?

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if management found out whether lost dockets were locked away or lying on the floor or in basins.

The Chairperson said that the detective could only achieve a detection rate of 57% for contact crimes. Of that court ready cases would be 32%. The conviction rate would even be less. Over time this situation would need attention and resources in order to change it. 638 468 contact crime cases were detected for the FY under review. Of those 363 927 dockets became court ready. 522 011 of 638 468 would not go to court. She took into account what Lt Gen Lebeya was saying but it would not improve the figures. The murder rate increased for women. The Committee appreciated the fact that the murder statistic was below 16 000 for this year, but the situation was worse. The situation was worse at some police stations.
The Chairperson said that in the case of crimes that depended on police action for detection, like drunken driving, the detection rate was 98%, court ready dockets were 28%. Why only 28%? She agreed with Mr Groenewald. When SAPS management came back the next time around, it had to explain what it was going to do. The detection rate was very bad. At Bloemspruit police station, 2 year old rape dockets were lying around getting dusty. The Committee could not be excited about it.

Gen Moonoo replied that detection rate had been explained in terms of charges reported and carried over, referred to court, from admin systems of police. He explained that there were two Welsh police forces. Detection rate rose to 38%. In 2007/08 the average was 29%. Comparative figures showed detection rate for other countries at 44%.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked whether the FCS members had undergone psychometric testing to qualify them suitable to work with children.

Gen Moonoo replied that they had not but they were undergoing the testing as they were processed to be permanently employed.

Ms Van Wyk said that the formulas to determine detection rate had to include conviction rate. SAPS had to provide conviction rates in the Annual Report and annual performance report.

Ms van Wyk wanted a reply to the state of the archives. She was asked the question last week. She gave the example of Honeydew police station and one other.

Forensic Science Laboratories (FSL)
Lieutenant General Julius Phahlane, Divisional Commissioner: Criminal Record and Forensic Science Services, said that Silverton forensic labs had been revamped. There were still challenges regarding the air conditioners. While fume cabinets were attended to, some were not operational. Problem areas that had been escalated for intervention were access control and additional metal detectors at FSLs. The Silverton building was not ideal but the housekeeping had improved. The current situation was not ideal but the lab was in a better condition. Containers with air conditioning were used as stores to enhance safekeeping. Regarding the chemistry environment, there would be a quarterly destruction of drugs to work away volumes. No expenditure was incurred on the storage area directly. The expenditure was incurred for the procurement of containers and destruction of drugs. The containers were not suitable for long-term storage of drugs. Building of a storage facility was a priority. Cameras were needed at the chemistry labs. For Pretoria it was much more expensive. Regarding the status of the labs, the physical address of the Plattekloof laboratories was the corner of Silverboom and Kiepersol Streets, Plattekloof, Parow. By the end of the current financial year, the labs would have relocated from Delft and would be up and running at Plattekloof. The Eastern Cape lab was in a leased building, 5th and 6th floor of the Eben Donges Buildings belonging to the Department of Public Works (DPW). KZN leased a building but there were plans to build a fully fledged lab at Pinetown, KZN. In Pretoria, the aim was to house the lab in one building. It was currently housed in several buildings in different locations.

The Chairperson asked Gen Phahlane why was Plattekloof, and not Pretoria, prioritised? When would Gauteng be equipped with a modern lab?

The Chairperson had specific cases that she wanted detailed progress reports on. These cases were: OR Tambo Case 41/11/2007; Silverton Case 403/12/2007; Midrand Case 997/02/2007 ; Silverton Case 203/12/2010; Silverton Case 141/11/2009, Sandra (sp?) Case 42/12/ 2009.

Gen Phahlane replied that OR Tambo Case 41/11/2007 was a drug dealing case. The issue had been investigated and an evidence bag had been found. There was a criminal case still under investigation.
Silverton Case 403/12/2007 was robbery with a firearm. The case was closed as undetected. No subjects were charged. Cash and a cell phone were robbed. Exhibits had not been brought to the lab. Midrand Case 997/02/2007 was a case of dealing in drugs. The case was withdrawn. The investigating officer was Officer Minnaar. Silverton Case 203/12/2010 was a case of theft of drugs from the lab. The case was with the Director of Public Prosecutions. Case 42/12/2009 was a burglary at a residential place. The case was undetected. Silverton Case 141/11/2009 FSL – had no record. Docket closed undetected. The case was with WO Moleme and Brig Johnson at Departmental Investigations.

Gen Phahlane said that people had lost drugs, but were not suspects. These cases did not enjoy any investigation. There was wrongdoing. In 2007 no action was taken (do you know what he is talking about). He sanctioned the departmental investigation. It was still pending. He would deal with it and act accordingly.

The Chairperson asked what the result was of the new technology Gen Phahlane was testing?

Gen Mphalane replied that the result of the testing was in phase one.

The Chairperson asked for a progress report on the unused equipment found in boxes at the labs?

Gen Phahlane replied that the issue had been investigated. A report procurement processes followed. Practices had been adjusted to curb reoccurrence. It had been placed on record. The equipment could not be utilised. It had passed its lifespan. It came down to the individual manager.

The Chairperson asked what happened considering the proposals to exchange it with the latest technology?

Gen Phahlane replied that there was a discrepancy about the value of the equipment. Three providers had been approached. The Department was attempting to do a new equipment exchange.

The Chairperson said that the Fingerprints Bill was now an Act. Were there no awareness campaigns planned? Were there plans to decentralise the
Criminal Record Centre (CRC)?

Gen Mhahlane replied that it warranted introspection on the part of Forensic Services.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked about the building previously used in Durban, the building was abandoned, used by vagrants. The station had been moved to Amanzimtoti. Could the same building not be used by the police station again?

The Chairperson said that when visiting forensic labs, the managers gave the delegation an overview of DNA technology. In Pretoria they used intimidating terms. On the matter of the maintenance of labs which were not functioning properly, of the R22m earmarked for maintenance, how much was paid to contractor?

The Chairperson said that the Committee was told that there were surveillance cameras. What had happened to them? Why did they not pick up on activities? At the lab, one of the personnel had told the delegation that there were surveillance cameras in his office, but drugs still went missing. Some cases were closed as undetected. He asked whether the lab had lost rhino horns.

Gen Phahlane replied that a rhino horn had been lost from the labs. The matter had been pursued. The member was arrested, suspended and a disciplinary process was underway. A court case was pending. While the rhino horn was in custody, it “became a fake” while in the lab.

Ms van Wyk asked what the standard procedures were for receiving drugs at the SAP 13 stores and their disposal as well as sending them to the forensic science labs. Was there a difference in the handling of hard core drugs and that of dagga?

Gen Phahlane replied SAPS was taking action against members based on the chain of custody. The lab bag could not have contained
the rhino horn. The matter was with the Hawks.

The Chairperson said that if her husband died of unnatural causes, she would be a suspect. Why were the people responsible for the storage of drugs not become suspects when drugs went missing? The whole area had to be under surveillance. Why did drugs and rhino horns go missing yet nobody was responsible? The Brigadier General on site said he could see everything.

Gen Phahlane said that logic told us that we should have proper surveillance. In line with that he put together specifications. When he did the assessment he came to the conclusion that it would cost R41 000 to arrange proper security for that building. There had to be better control measures in the environment. Gen Phahlane had to table for the National Commissioner, members that had been properly vetted.

The Chairperson asked whether there were surveillance cameras at the Pretoria labs.

Gen Phahlane replied that there were but they were not adequate. He was convinced that the purchase of the cameras was fruitless expenditure as the cameras were not ideal.

Nat Com Cele commented that the road on which Princess Diane died, had cameras, but on the night that she died, there were no cameras.

The Chairperson said that this laxity undermined the work of SAPS as well as the Committee. The matter needed attention. Next time, Gen Phahlane had to propose a budget to make the necessary changes to bring the forensic department up to speed. She asked why Plattekloof had been prioritised. Why a new lab in Cape Town and not update the Pretoria lab?

Ms Van Wyk asked what the standard procedures were for receiving drugs and handing them over. Were there different regimes for hard-core drugs and dagga?

The Chairperson said, on the management of stores, that SAPS had to review the decision of decentralizing the CRC. It had to rethink this. The Committee did not want to dictate to the department.

Nat Com Cele asked the Chairperson to consider the CRC issue with an open mind and to come to a decision only after considering all the factors.

Gen Phahlane did not dispute the space issue in the Pretoria lab. He acknowledged the pressures. The issues would not be solved overnight. He would have to go back to management and put the case to them of the need for a modern lab in Pretoria. The people employed had to be comfortable in the infrastructure. He appreciated the compromises and sacrifices they were making. While employing people and increasing instruments, Forensics had challenges. Drugs or exhibits handed in at stations were laboratory bound. Evidence had to get to the labs within seven days of being handed in. If it took longer, it risked compromising the integrity of the evidence. The evidential value then diminished, diminishing the chances of winning a case. As head of Forensics, he was very conscious of the chain of custody. If that were questionable, many cases would be lost in courts. When exhibits were handed over they had to be processed. Only the Regional Commissioner could order the destruction of drugs after finalising the case via a court order.

Marshal System [PMG note: only rough notes available for this section]
Gen Phahlane said that two names were appended following the post’s advertisement, after Joubert left. Mushabi was one. He was not aware of Toko’s involvement in the Marshal System case. In the GSPS the politics were known to the FSL people. Two people feature prominently, Brig Joubert. Decommissioning Joe Smith. GSPS Brig Jonker and Joe Smith. The Marshal System - was convinced that the two had a lot to do with it. Let the decision maker’s head roll. Information that was not available to me.

An inherent requirement for the position was experience and training in the environment of the post: 21 years in forensic biology, including quality control. In assessment of applicants who applied for the post, the focus was on the objective assessment of candidates to avoid a barrier on race groups. Humans made mistakes. Not known to me. Marshal System – none of managers and how did it go? He took earlier retirement (before 55) the Department had to pay a penalty to the pension fund.

The Chairperson asked Gen Mphahlane regarding Marshal Systems. She asked him to re-submit his explanation via email, because she was aware that he did it before, but because of the revolving door of secretaries, the information was lost. The question was: “What happened to the individuals who were responsible for the Marshal System?” She said that he replied that he had terminated the services of on one member. She asked for the name of the member as well as the conditions for the termination of his service. Did he resign, was he dismissed, was he retrenched in terms of Section 35? She heard his motivation when he said that others assisted in the investigation of the case. She did not know to what extent. Did he try to justify in his motivation, the possibility of those people being promoted? After being responsible for a huge loss, they would be compensated with a promotion. Was it true that Hennop was involved in the case, but he was promoted. Was it true that Toko was involved in the Marshal System, and had been promoted? She demanded an explanation of how people who were probably responsible for the misuse of a huge amount on money, were promoted. Where was this Marshal System?

Gen Phahlane said that the need for cameras had been identified. The life expectancy and capabilities of the installed cameras were limited. What actually happened in areas where there were no cameras? FSL used moving cabinets. When
cabinets were moved, one could not say for sure that things went missing at the lab.

The Chairperson asked why metal detectors were bought since it was drugs that were stolen.

Gen Phahlane replied that the metal detectors were not a new procurement. The delivery just happened to be in this financial year. Access control was not adequate. It had been improved but was not ideal.

The Chairperson asked if the metal detector purchase had been discussed with management. Why metal detectors, but no drug detectors?
Gen Phahlane said that when Pretoria was granted its new lab, what was wrong would be fixed.

The Chairperson said to Commissioner Dramat that the Committee had been given a target of 3000+ personnel for the DPCI Hawks last year. The unit had 2 835 personnel. Did the unit need more personnel? Was the Commissioner happy with the expertise and resources as it stood?

Directorate of Priority Crime Investigation (DPCI) Head, Anwar Dramat, replied that the ideal was 3 140 which meant that 305 posts were still empty.

Ms van Wyk asked about the irritation with ex-Scorpion members, how was it coming along? The cases transferred from the Scorpions to the Hawks, had any been completed since they had been taken over, if 55 had been terminated

The Chairperson asked whether the Hawks had lost staff due to vetting.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked about the overall perception of how various sections of the Hawks functioned. Have the irritations been overcome between people who were working for the Scorpions before and were assimilated into the Hawks? Were the rumours of discontent true or not? Was it doing the job that it was supposed to do? What happened to the incomplete cases carried over from the Scorpions? It had a staff complement of 2 835. How many more positions needed to be filled? Have these people been vetted. Were some incapable of working because they have not been vetted.

Lt Gen Dramat replied that the DPCI was a merger of different agencies amongst others the Directorate of Special Operations (DSO – Scorpions), the Organised Crime and Commercial Crime units of SAPS, as well as the High Tech Centre of SAPS. It was still trying to merge into a single coordinated and efficient team. Relationships were still a challenge. The Hawks were looking at service providers who could diagnose the challenges in the organisation and assist the organisation in overcoming them.

Com Dramat replied that there were 288 cases in total: 55 had been terminated, 97 were in court, 136 were not finalised. 36 projects had successfully been terminated and 19 had not been terminated successfully. There had been 55 convictions and 86 arrests.

Mr George asked if the 136 ex-Scorpions cases that had not been finalised, were not finalised because of a lack of staff?

Lt Gen Dramat replied that of the 136 cases not finalised, it was important to indicate that some of the 288 cases that came over from the DSO, were only enquiries, which could be closed. Some of the 136 had not been closed because they were more complex and in some cases needed forensic audits. For this, companies would have to be appointed, and it took time, but they were prioritised and fast-tracked as far as possible.

Mr Lekgetho expressed concern about the 305 vacancies that existed in the Hawks. He asked for the vacancies to be categorised. What happened to cases transferred from the Scorpions? When would the 136 cases be finalised?

Lt Gen Dramat replied that that DPCI was planning to fill the 305 vacancies. The organisations decided to allocate posts to the provincial offices to capacitate the Organised Crime Project Investigations (OCPIs), the financial and assets section, as well as the new anti-corruption section which would deal with corruption within the JCPS cluster.

Mr Schneeman said regarding rhino poaching, he was pleased at the success reported. It was becoming a major problem. How big was the problem becoming? Who was DPCI working with? He wanted to be informed about the partnerships entered into in order to address this problem.

Lt Gen Dramat replied that rhino poaching was on the increase. The Hawks was working with SANPARKs, Nature Conservation, the National Prosecuting Authority (NPA), and other entities to combat it. A databank of over 1200 Rhino DNA samples had been collected over past year. Namibia had joined the programme as well.
Stop Rhino Poaching was an awareness programme driven by Radio Jacaranda. Lead SA had an awareness programme driven by the private sector to assist prevention of rhino poaching. Conserve was a community policing initiative project where all members were in SMS contact to call out for assistance on rhino poaching. The Wildlife Crime Reaction Unit was an interdepartmental initiative between SANParks, SAPS, the NPA, and Nature Conservation working closely in the detection, investigating and prosecution of wildlife crime cases. It had a plan to combat the escalation of rhino poaching

Mr Swathe said he had read about people who bought licences for so-called legal rhino hunts. They were actually interested in rhino horn. Did the Hawks investigate these licences? Was the licence for the animal or only for the horn? Had the Hawks arrested people in this regard?

Lt Gen Dramat replied that this investigation would need the multidisciplinary team mentioned earlier. Thus far the Hawks had not been able to detect that any of the horns of the animals hunted had landed up in the illicit trade in rhino horn. The DNA databank would assist law enforcement to identify horns acquired in legal hunts versus horns acquired illegally.

The Chairperson said that in Mpumalanga, students from private nursing schools were not allowed to work in state hospitals. In Mpumalanga there were no approved nursing schools, but all over Mpumalanga there were nursing colleges where poor students paid R9000 per year for courses that were not recognized by the South African Nursing Council. They were owned in many cases by foreign nationals who were not trained nurse educators. In South Africa only formally qualified nurse educators could teach at colleges or own private colleges. These were fly-by-night schools. It had to be raised with the Department of Health and the Hawks had to investigate them.

Lt Gen Dramat replied that the Hawks would assist other partners like the Department of Health, to address the issue of fly-by-night nursing colleges.

Financial performance
The Chairperson asked if the purchase of a helicopter was indicated in the operational annual performance plan of the current or previous financial years.

Lieutenant-General Stefan Schutte, Chief Financial Officer, explained that the helicopter was ordered in the 2009/10 FY. It was delivered and paid for in the 2010/11 FY. The intended purchase was not specifically indicated in the annual performance plan of the 2009/10 FY. Although prominent objectives were included in the Annual Performance plan, not all operational aspects were included. Since then a framework for strategic plans and annual performance plans had been issued by National Treasury which now directed them. From the 2012/13 FY, SAPS would have to comply with the provisions of this framework. The spending aspects of that plan had already been introduced in the 2011/12 Annual Performance Plan. A review of the aircraft fleet had been done in 2011/12. There were a number of old helicopters that needed to be replaced. There would be some expansions of a wing or two.

On the Criminal Assets Recovery Account (CARA), Gen Schutte said the Prevention of Organised Crime Act (POCA) provided for the establishment of a committee, chaired by the Minister of Justice and Constitutional Development. The committee consisted of the Ministers of Safety and Security, Finance, Land Affairs and Agriculture and the National Director of Public Prosecutions. In terms POCA, the distribution of moneys and assets in CARA must be made by Cabinet acting on the recommendation of this committee. This had been indicated for the Committee to see that it was a fixed process. The amount of R7.021m was approved for the utilisation of the following: forensic auditing R2.570m; chartered accountants R2.751m and training R1.7m. During the year under review, R311 000 was spent on training purposes. Due to the conditions imposed by POCA, only commercial and organised crime investigations could use these funds. The amount of R6m had been committed for forensic and accounting services. The DPCI was administering the fund.

The Auditor General reported a contingent liability of R611,692 million by SAPS. An indication was received by year-end that the DPW had taken a decision to apply for a declaratory order in the Sanlam Middestad lease agreement in Pretoria for a court to make a ruling on the legality or otherwise of the lease agreement. A contingent liability indicated uncertainty. The matter was before court and the decision had been awaited. If the court made a decision against SAPS, it would have to find the funds within the existing baseline to pay the amount.

Details on the R82.625m owed to SAPS by the Department of Energy. The DoE owed the Local Organising Committee (LOC). The LOC owed SAPS for security services provided during the FIFA W. The arrangement was made that the DoE would pay SAPS directly. On 20 June 2011 the amount was paid into the SAPS bank account. (It was supposed to be paid on 31 March 2011).

In reply to a question on why a lot more money was spent on IT services in 2009/10 than 2010/11, Gen Schutte said the reason was the Automated Fingerprint Identification System (AFIS) IT system had been upgraded in 2009/10. It cost R170 million. SAPS paid the Anatomy Department of the University of Pretoria an amount to analyse and clean up human remains in various stages of decomposition. It also accommodated a case-file archiving and retrieval service of its analysis and blood samples. This explained the R0.137m to R0.883m increase between 2009/10 and 2010/11.

Informer fees were also reduced because SAPS only paid for actual information received.

Gen Moorcroft explained that the Belgian Technical Corporation (BTC) had funded the training of SAPS members in strategic management since 2004. BTC awarded the tender to the Nelson Mandela Metro University’s Business school in PE which ran a one year program. Three groups of 30 and one group of 20 had successfully completed the course over a five year period. 15 learners were currently busy with the course which would finish in February 2012. The funding was directly paid to the university by the BTC. SAPS received a donation in kind and did not directly handle any money.

Ms Kohler-Barnard referred to the money owed to SAPS by the DoE. It promised the money in April and only paid it in June 2011. Two month’s interest on R38m would be a substantial amount.

Gen Schutte replied that he assumed that the money was in the bank account of the LOC. It was only paid to SAPS in June 2011. He did not have access to its bank statements to see when it had been paid to the LOC.

Ms Kohler-Barnard was surprised at the number of police stations that did not have sewage, water and electricity.

Gen Kruser provided a list of all stations that did not have basic services such as toilets and electricity. Some of these station had facilities like pit toilets that became too small, or water had run dry, because of malfunctioning tanks. Vehicles were bought to assist them. 27 stations had electricity and generators sets put in, 87 had sewage systems put in and 54 had new or additional water supplies built in to ensure they could function. Most of them were done by DPW, but were monitored by SAPS project officers and were on track.

Ms Van Wyk referred to the decreased payments to SITA and increase in payments to Service Partners. It was about the exhibit management - what was the R38m spent on?

Gen Schutte would consult with Gen Tsabalala to get the correct information about the R38m connected to the exhibit management. He would report back the next day.

Ms van Wyk asked how long the Belgian Funding would still continue. How many members would still go through the training?

Gen Moorcroft replied that it would happen on a year to year basis. The BTC was interested in sponsoring the training for another year. The documents had to be prepared and sent through management.

Ms van Wyk asked if the amount DPW would be liable for in terms of the contingent liability issue, could be more over a period of time, depending on the outcome. Given the worst case scenario, was it the total amount?

The Chairperson said that the helicopter was not in the strategic plan for 2009/10. The contingent liability was nowhere in the strategic plan, estimates of national expenditure (ENE) or annual performance plan (APP). It was becoming a trend to have things happen outside of what was presented to the Committee. What was the cost of the helicopter?

Gen Schutte replied that enhanced alignment between the APP and the ENE was important, not so much the strategic plan. It was a requirement. Was it not in 2009 APP? It should have been in there. It was a key deliverable but it was an area that management was putting on a more sound footing in future, because it was such an expensive commodity. He and a few of his colleagues in the national management forum had decided on a total capital asset replacement plan for helicopters as well as their maintenance. It would be in the 2012/13 plan. If one looked at 2009/10, 2010/11 and 2011/12, one would see that he had introduced some aspects that were not there before and moved closer to the format required by Treasury. Since 2009/10 progress had taken place. The cost of the helicopter was under Programme 2 and was R30.8m or R30.9 m.

The Chairperson said that the story that unfolded about the purchase of the helicopter made her wonder even more. It did not appear anywhere for the last three FYs. These were huge monies. There were whole departments which had budgets of R76m or R126m per year. She wanted to raise the issue of the R611m contingent liability. She wondered what was to be done with the budget after it was adopted. She did not want to micro-manage the department, but the situation was unacceptable.

Gen Schutte replied that the R611m was a contingent liability and full of uncertainty.

The Chairperson said that Gen Schutte had referred to prominent objectives. She asked what they were.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if all irregular expenditure fell under supply chain management. The AG only audited less than 5% of the expenditure of SAPS, because the budget was so enormous. Within this 5% audited there was R78m irregular expenditure. If this was extrapolated to the total budget of SAPS, the amount of irregular expenditure could be R1.5b.Would all of it fall under supply chain management, or what else could it be classified as.

Firearm licences
Gen Mothiba explained that SMSs were sent from the call centre for people to collect their firearm licence. SAPS used local newspapers, local radio, and national media to notify people to collect their licences. Archives would be created in the various provinces to deal with uncollected firearm licences.

The question was asked: how many arrested criminals had been found to be in possession of SAPS firearms? All recovered firearms were sent for ballistic analysis.

Gen Mothiba replied that serial numbers were filed off. It was difficult to establish the origin of firearms.

Gen Kruser said that he had a new method of etching firearms deeper so that it was more difficult to file the serial numbers off.

The Chairperson asked regarding firearm licences whether this was what was supposed to happen or what was actually happening? At some police station there was a member with his own licence register.

Ms Kohler-Barnard complained because SAPS could not manage the administrative process of getting firearm licences to the people who applied to them.

Mr George said that if it was difficult to establish the origin of firearms, thus it would not be possible/easy to say how many had been recovered. Was this correct?

Mr Ndlovu wanted clarity on when the archives would be established in the provinces.

The Chairperson told the National Commissioner there had been an improvement in the processing of the firearm licences and certificates. It was better. The problem was with stations. If the turnaround time could be shortened, it would be easier to get back to the owner. She asked the National Commissioner to make sure that things changed, because it became political. The people from the province who accompanied the Committee on the oversight tour, did not point out that the members at the local station were doing the procedure wrong.

Nat Com Cele said it took five years for firearm licences to expire. There was a situation where 15 000 licences expired at station level, without them being fetched.

Chief Operations Officer Ngwenya said that SAPS came up with a short- and a long-term strategy. What was in the report was the work done during the project. Structures had to develop and there had to be dedicated capacity. Posts had been advertised and were being filled.

The Chairperson asked if people working with firearm licences were a separate unit. Were they not accountable to the station commander?

Ms Van Wyk said that what Ms Ngwenya had explained was an old plan that was being implemented. It was budgetted for and received a ring fenced R63m for the first year. Did the department have work study officers? Were they involved in this kind of thing? This was what they were supposed to be doing, working out a system that worked.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that the Second Hand Goods Bill and the “Fingerprints” Bill that Parliament sweated over was unknown to members at station level. This legislation had not been implemented. There was a huge chasm between what Parliament did and what departments did. The legislation went nowhere.

The National Commissioner said that licenced firearms was a complex issue. The Minister grappled with this one. He instituted designated firearm officers. They complained that station commanders did not care about them. The Register had become compulsory. He heard allegations of racial discrimination against black security firms whose licences were delayed on purpose.

Nat Com Cele said that he did not want to talk about the money dedicated to implement dedicated personnel for firearm licences. Large amounts of money went into it and it was still not completed. He asked how genuine the Committee was since Ms Kohler-Barnard had not asked questions on Forensics.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that she had the sense that she was being attacked, but she did not understand the reason for the attack.

The Chairperson said that she understood Nat Com Cele to say that when the meeting discussed forensics, Ms Kohler-Barnard did not ask any questions.

Nat Com Cele said everybody in Forensics was white from top to bottom. Only white officers get recognition for their work.

The Chairperson told National Commissioner Cele that questions were not asked on the basis of colour. The Committee held everybody accountable. Her personal interest in forensics came from the fact that people thought politicians could not ask questions on forensics because it was such a specialized field.

Nat Com Cele disagreed with the Chairperson.

Kohler-Barnard said that if National Commissioner Cele was going to accuse her of racism, she was leaving the meeting.

The Chairperson said that no one had the right to make it difficult for her to run the meeting.

Gen Mothiba acknowledged challenges in SAP13 stores. There were provincial task teams looking at it. The National Commissioner had talked about centralising firearms in particular stations. SAPS acknowledged the challenges it had with archives. Archives were by and large mostly full. Nobody had the right to destroy dockets until the order was issued to destroy dockets. Only then could the archive space problem be addressed.

The Chairperson said that Johannesburg and Pretoria were large stations but their archives and stores were organised correctly. The issue was not space, it was management.

Ms Van Wyk said that officials had to answer questions and not pass the buck. The fact was that archives and sub 13 stores were not kept in the right way. Bags full of evidence were lying around at police stations. It was sad when SAPS became defensive. Johannesburg was a pathetic station but they had the archives and stores right and she highlighted the good practice.

Nat Com Cele said that SAPS was not defensive. He was not satisfied either. How do you steal 93 firearms? He hoped that they were not used in Inanda which was the murder capital in KZN.

The Chairperson said that Robertson police station had a poster with graphic representation of the main principles of the Children’s Act. She found it very informative and practical. She wanted to get hold of it and make it available wider.

Ms Van Wyk said that all National Instructions had to be shortened and make practical. The Communications Department could do this.

The Chairperson said that Gen Mothiba should not create the impression that what happened at police stations was perfect.

Ms Van Wyk reported instances when cars belonging to the flying squad and the dog school in Pietermaritzburg were seen at the Midmar and Albert Falls dams. She asked the delegation to shed some light on the matter.

Gen Mothiba replied that the Departments were not aware of the incidents. He asked for the particulars so that it could be followed up.

Gen Kruser replied that he had checked the Automated Vehicle Location (AVL) for that period and found that five cars were at the Midmar dam. They were from the dog school and Kruser had requested a report that would state whether they were there formally or not. A car from the Flying Squad of Pietermaritzburg was at the Albert Falls dam. He would do further investigation to find out why the car was there.

Mr Lekgetho said that Community Police Forums was part of visible policing. One community member asked if the detective expertise could not be used in CPFs. If not, why not?

Gen Mothiba said that he would speak to Mr Lekgetho about the detective who could contribute in the CPF.

The Chairperson asked how much money was spent on infrastructure development.

Building projects underway – planned stations
Gen Kruser said he had provided the Committee with a list of 33 stations out of 42. Nine had been completed as had been reported last week. He had the list broken down along description, classification, status, executing department, total projected costs, and total expenditure at 25 September 2011.

He wanted to highlight Giyani, which was planned to be built in two phases. Phase one had been completed. It was a Building Service Programme and SAPS had not proceeded with the second part because at that stage it did not do buildings anymore.

Provide a list of contractors that went bankrupt and did not finish projects?
Gen Kruser reported that no contractors that were appointed by SAPS had gone bankrupt. Information had been requested from DPW concerning information about procurement and contracting agencies for the buildings that were still incomplete. He was waiting for a response from them.

Investigation by the Special Investigating Unit (SIU)
Gen Kruser replied in terms of Proclamation 42 of 2010 by the President of the Republic of South Africa, the SIU had to investigate all building projects undertaken by SAPS as per their Capital Building Works Programme 2005-2010. The SIU had collected all the documents. The SIU gave SAPS a general briefing on the issue, but it did not divulge the identity of any individual in terms of the investigation, but the investigation was going well.

Request for updated list of police stations under construction for 2011/12 and 2012/13
Gen Kruser replied that there was a request to provide an update of list of police station under construction in the current year 2011/12 and for the next financial year 2012/13. This list would overlap with the previous list. It was again broken down into project name, new or renovated asset, executing department, its position in terms of old and revised strategic plan, total projected cost and total expenditure to date.

What was the estimated cost of the building?
Gen Kruser replied that a small station would cost roughly R18.331m, a medium R48.741m, and large R79.272m. These were estimated costs built at present prices.

Full status of Roodepoort Dog School
Gen Kruser had asked DPW for a full report but was still waiting. DPW had a new Director General. The new Acting DG had to report how he intended to proceed with this project.

What was the role of the Bid Evaluation Committee (BEC) and how many committees existed?
What was the role of the BEC, at what level was the location of the BEC, who chaired the BEC and BAC and who were its members, and what were the ranks of the Chairpersons?

Gen Kruser replied that there was a Bid Evaluation Committee which consisted primarily out of acquisition people, people from the end-user, and experts. If the building was going to be a forensic lab, forensic scientists would be the experts. If it related to building, architects would be the experts. Then there was a Bid Adjudication Committee (BAC) which was appointed by the National Commissioner. He had provided a list of all the people who sat on the BAC.

Who was the accounting officer for the procurement process, were two divisions involved?
Gen Kruser replied that the Accounting Officer was the National Commissioner of the South Africa Police, delegated to his necessary delegate.

How long did the procurement process take? Who was accountable and at what level and who was ultimately responsible?
Gen Kruser outlined a whole long process with different thresholds, in terms of quotations, and what could go wrong with quotations. He had submitted SAPS’s procurement policy in CD-Rom form. The manual was a user directive for acquisition. It was updated on a regular basis as new practice notes and instruction notes were issued by National Treasury. The process to make changes could be lengthy as Legal Services had to be consulted before the approval by the accounting officer.

What were the disciplinary steps on the instances of condonement and what were the outcomes?
Annexure B in the document contained a list of all irregular expenditure. Most of the condonements were written or verbal warnings given by the end-user where the contravention took place. It was then condoned by the BAC. National Treasury’s Practice Note 4 of 2008/09 was attached for irregular expenditure for condoning certain circumstances. There were two: The one was where the institution incurred irregular expenditure because it deviated from inviting competitive bids, but did not get the approval of the accounting authority. The Second Practice note was due, in part, to non-compliance to the PFMA.

What powers or limitations did investigators have who investigated supply chain issues?
Gen Kruser replied that there were two types of investigations that took place. Firstly, there was a departmental investigation. Disciplinary regulations empowered the chairperson to conduct disciplinary hearings against members who were alleged to have committed misconduct in terms of Section 20 of the same regulations. Then there were criminal investigations which were outlined in the document. Lt Gen Dramat could provide more information on this because the Hawks or detectives did criminal investigations.

Internal investigation cases in the procurement environment
Gen Kruser replied that there was a summary of cases in the department: 11 were finalised and 11 were still pending. There was one case currently under investigation. The summary of departmental cases was being reviewed for elementary criminal cases and one had been referred to the Hawks resulting in the investigation of three counts of fraud and corruption.

Cell phones
Gen Kruser reported that SAPS received 70 637 cell phones from three providers in terms of a communication MOU SAPS had with the providers. These phones were issued without simcards. This was separate from the contract SAPS had with Vodacom where phones and simcards were provided on contract. Management had taken the decision that had been approved by the National Commissioner that 26 000 of the phones would be donated to the members in the lower ranks. It would be written off the inventory after two years and become the property of the police members. SAPS applied to Treasury to give the phones to the members and received approval on 20 September. They would be handed over by the end of October.

SAPS Vetted Suppliers. Were suppliers being vetted?
Ms van Wyk asked how SAPS vetted its 17 000 registered suppliers.

Gen Kruser replied that SAPS used the Companies and Intellectual Property Registration Office (CIPRO) and National Treasury to make sure none of the suppliers were blacklisted by Treasury.

Project Management Office
Mr G Schneeman (ANC) said that according to the AG’s report, a project management office had been established. He wanted to know where it was based, who staffed it and how it operated.

Gen Kruser replied that a Project Management Office (PMO) was established in terms of the project management body of knowledge principles to implement the building programme in terms of expenditure, implement all projects in terms of the factor of time, cost utilities and quality control. Each project had a
Project Execution Plan (PEP) with proper planning instruction so that each project could be monitored and captured on the portal. There were daily meetings with the project officers and managers as well as integrated meetings with all role players, three times a week. All the processes, including the project demand process was managed using this system.

A colonel had been appointed in charge. He was a qualified project manager with four project managers at Lt Col level and six in support staff. He could already see positive results although there was still room for improvement. The system would be applied to other sections of supply chain, but he started with the building programme as this was the area with the biggest challenges.

Why did the accountant not choose to abide by the prescripts of the PFMA? What steps were taken?
All irregular expenditure was reported to Supply Chain and investigated. Contract performance was monitored by Treasury. Divisions had been instructed to rotate suppliers. Pro-quote was a computer software system that issued quotations on a rotational basis. It would be used from 1 April 2012.

Gen Kruser said Gen Schutte had given quite an expansive explanation on this.

The Chairperson asked how many leased buildings there were in the environment of forensics. How much money was spent on infrastructure development?

Lt Gen Kruser reported on lease agreements for buildings used by Forensics. It came to R10 980 850 per annum for the six leased buildings.

Revised building programme for the next three years
This was the new revised plan which was consulted with all the provinces and approved by the management forum itself. It contained a total of 134 projects which included 30 rural stations. SAPS received the 30 sites from the traditional leaders. Site clearing was underway. Between SAPS and DPW and IDT, IDT was the better option. All 30 police stations would be established within the next three years.

The Chairperson asked what the duration was for the lease of these buildings. For how long this money would be paid.

Gen Kruser replied that there were two possible options when dealing with a lease. If the supplier was non-BEE compliant the lease was signed for a maximum of 2 years at a time. If the supplier was BEE compliant, the lease was signed for a period of 10 years. This was the policy of DPW currently. How SAPS determined whether it needed a lease was as follows. It did a needs analysis of all divisions, of all end-users in all provinces. It then decided where it was going to need buildings or leases. Within the current MTEF, while SAPS was trying to reach rural areas, it would spend its budget on leases and not build.

Nat Com Cele said that the Chairperson only asked about the leased buildings used by Forensics, but SAPS as a whole leased 1 365 buildings country-wide. This would have to be discussed at some other time. The ownership of these buildings had to be discussed as well. What did it mean to be BEE-compliant? There were building owner companies that used black people as fronts, but were not really BEE compliant.

Ms van Wyk said that SAPS had to act against fronting, because it was illegal.

The Chairperson said that she wanted clarity on all leased buildings and leasing contracts because the department spent and lost a lot of money through it.

Ms van Wyk asked why SAPS was inviting cell phone tenders.

Gen Kruser said that there was no tender out for cellphones. SAPS had a contract with Vodacom, which was the only one.

Mr Schneeman wanted to correct a statement that he made in the meeting last week. He had heard that the Diepsloot Police station was being vandalised. He asked the constituency office administrator in the area to check and the person found security on site. He just wanted to correct the statement that he made last week. He asked what the 30 additional stations in rural areas were going to cost. What procurement processes had been followed, in awarding it to the IDT. Was it normal tender processes?

Ms van Wyk said regarding the re-prioritisation of police stations, she wanted the Committee to consider suggesting in the
Budgetary Review and Recommendations Report (BRRR), that Provincial Commissioners could not keep on re-prioritising. It caused problems. She wanted to know where those stations were planned to be built. There was a station that was on the planned list for an area in Mossel Bay, but it had disappeared from the list. A station in Wellington had gone some distance through the planning stages, the land had been arranged with the city council, and it had disappeared from this list. Provincial commissioners had to prioritise for a minimum of a five year period before a review would be possible. Obviously there would be emergencies where an exception could be made.

Ms van Wyk said that she was worried about time lapses. SAPS received the phones in July 2010. It only applied in May 2011 to hand them out. It was unacceptable that the cell phones were lying around not used.

Ms van Wyk went through the list of stations given. At least DPW came in at or below cost. Was there a problem with SAPS? SAPS always came in above cost by huge amounts, sometimes double. She wanted more information about the 30 planned stations in the rural areas to pre-empt cost problems in the future.

Mr Schneeman said that he raised the issue last week about the Alexandra and Wynberg barracks that were in an appalling condition. It was going to come out in the Committee Report. How would that situation be addressed, because this was now the revised plan until 2016/17?

Gen Kruser said SAPS was in discussions with DPW regarding a faster programme to renovate all barracks.

The Chairperson said that she was checking the capital works projects for completion. She wanted to know whether Gen Kruser knew if Bergville Police station would be a small, medium or large police station.

Gen Kruser said that it was a driving school for advanced driving.

The Chairperson read a list of pending building projects to be undertaken by SAPS and DPW. In most cases the total cost was double the initially projected cost. The subsequent discussion centred on this list.

The Chairperson told National Commissioner Cele that SAPS and the Committee had a meeting last year. In that meeting it was agreed that SAPS had to find a workable model on the building of police stations. It had to come to the Committee to table it. It was in the Committee’s BRR Report. SAPS had a lot of time to think about this issue. Its plan as was set out in the document, showed that it did not have a plan. SAPS were not the answer. DPW was not the answer either. It needed an alternate plan.

Nat Com Cele said that the census would give clarity on where police stations were needed. As soon as the information was available, planning would start around the new planned locations for police stations.

Gen Kruser said that some of these projects were as old as 2004, which would explain why the cost had escalated to this degree. But SAPS had taken two decisions. It had taken a policy decision not to build anymore. It had just completed outstanding projects over the last year. Together with DPW and the legal services of Treasury, it was formulating an MOU with IDT. Building Services only did R&R renovations like fixing roofs and putting up fences. IDT was the Independent Development Trust. It ran the construction project completely and many departments worked with it. It was efficient. It had built schools in the rural areas. It had worked with the Departments of Education, Health and Justice and had a good track record with these departments.

The Chairperson wanted more information. She understood that Gen Kruser was saying that SAPS had a different model. Construction always cost a lot of money and was therefore very important.

Mr George asked regarding the basic facilities at police stations. Was it going to be done by the IDT or by SAPS itself?

Mr Kruser replied that it depended on whether a particular station had been devolved from DPW to SAPS in terms of an MOU between the two departments. Some stations were still with DPW and DPW was responsible for maintenance and all works that needed to be done. Stations that had been devolved to SAPS, had to be maintained by SAPS. They were 271 in number. IDT would be used as service provider for greenfield developments, in other words new buildings.

The Chairperson asked Gen Kruser to make a presentation on these issues. He was introducing something new. It should not come as a response to a question.

Nat Com Cele said that what Gen Kruser had said thus far, was known to management. If he was going to present more information, management would like to know first, before he presented it to the Committee.

Ms van Wyk asked if a presentation had not been made to management before. The decision to embark on this path had to be taken by management in the past.

Mr Ndlovu said that National Commissioner Cele said that the new thing that Gen Kruser would present the next day, could not come to the Committee before going through him first. It would be better to go back and discuss and agree about what they were going to present.

Mr George said that Gen Kruser had added new information. He assumed that these plans had been discussed. He did not want to have incomplete police stations in a year’s time, because the initial decisions and agreements had not been made correctly.

The Chairperson agreed that SAPS needed time to discuss and agree on what it wanted to say. It had to relate to the revised strategic plan. She wanted detailed information and it had to relate to the budget. She had not seen the revised strategic plan of SAPS.

Nat Com Cele said that the revised strategic plan was with the President and the Treasury, after which it would come to the Committee.

Mr Schneeman asked that the presentation on the new way of doing building projects had to happen this year. Gen Kruser indicated that SAPS was finalising an MOU and was going out to tender in April next year. By the time Members came back to Parliament next year, they would be busy with the budget and only got down to ordinary business in March.

The Chairperson agreed.

Nat Com Cele said that SAPS would be having its management forum on the 26, 27 and 28 October 2011 after which it would be ready to do the presentation.

The Chairperson said that she had received complaints about the procurement processes within SAPS. It took much too long. It had to be looked into. Processes had to be looked at and people responsible had to be addressed.

Nat Com Cele said that with the new Treasury Instruction Notes it was going to be worse.

General N Mazibuko, Divisional Commissioner: Personnel Management addressed, a question that was asked about posts that were advertised and later the advertisements were withdrawn, but people were appointed in those positions. The question asked for the ranks of the people employed as well as the prescripts that allowed the appointments to be made in this way.

The answer was that that 35(1) SAPS Employment Regulations 2008 provided in Regulation 45(8), 45(9) and 45(10) as follows:
”The National Commissioner may promote an employee to a vacant post in a fixed establishment of the service if such a vacancy is sufficiently funded and the vacancy had been advertised and the candidates selected in accordance with the Regulations 43, 44 and Sub-regulation 127, notwithstanding the provision of Sub-regulation 8(b). The National Commissioner may promote an employee without advertising the post and without following the selection process if the National Commissioner is satisfied that the employee qualified in all respects for the post or there are exceptional circumstances that warranted the deviation from the set Sub-regulation and such deviation is in the interest of service and (b) that the National Commissioner has recorded the reasons for the deviation in writing and that a promotion may not come into effect before the first day of the month following the day on which the National Commissioner approved it.”
In terms of these provisions and in direct response to the question there were a number of promotions and filling of vacancies that took place. In terms of 45(9) there were four, two of which occurred at the level of Lieutenant General, and two more at the level of Major General. And the 16 were fielded laterally, four at the level of Lieutenant General, and four more at the level of Major General as well as eight at the level of Brigadier. There were 20 appointments in all.

Mr George said that exceptional circumstances were needed to justify the appointments.

Gen Mazibuko replied that not all were employed in terms of exceptional circumstances. Where there was an annotation, it recorded the written reasons the National Commissioner had given for employing the person in that post.

Mr Schneeman proposed that the meeting be adjourned.

The Chairperson said that the meeting would start at 09h00 the next day and would resume on this point. This point dealt with appointments made in the Western Cape and service delivery.

The meeting was adjourned.

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