South African Police Service 2010/2011 Annual Report: Administration Programme

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11 October 2011
Chairperson: Ms L Chikunga (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Department of Police briefed the Committee on their financial statements for the 2010/2011 financial year and on Programme 1: Administration. SAPS received R53 529 740 billion from Parliament for the financial year under review and expended R53 529 700 billion on its five Programmes i.e. Administration; Visible Policing; Detective Services; Crime Intelligence; Protection and Security Services. They reported that virements for all programmes had been well within the 8% limitation, with actual variances very marginal. Revenue was collected on behalf of the South African Revenue Service (SARS) which was deposited into the National Revenue Fund (NRF). R7,5 million was received in Donor Funds from external donors including funds from the Criminal Assets Recovery Account (CARA). They had received an unqualified audit report from the Auditor-General with emphasis of matter for Contingent Liabilities relating to the contract for the Police Headquarters in Pretoria.

The overall key spending priorities were on human capacity building including basic training, detective development, Station Commander Management Training, K53 Training and Forensic Science learnerships. Physical infrastructure and the building environment was a priority area with serious backlogs and the lack of basic facilities such as toilets, water and electricity at some police stations. Combating crime more effectively was another critical priority and specialised, highly effective Tactical Response Teams (TRT) had been established around the country. The Automated Vehicle Location system had been rolled out at a cost of R72, 4 million. R16,1 million was spent to improve the Firearm Control system. The 2010/11 financial year had also made provision for the 2010 Soccer World Cup deployment.

The Department reported in depth on Programme 1: Administration, expanding on their Key Indicators and Targets against their actual performance and the reasons for variances. They accounted for the over-expenditure and underspending under various sub-programmes and the numerous virements that had occurred. They provided a breakdown of statistics on their personnel as well as on the Human Resource Development Plan and training programmes. Under the sub-programme: Corporate Services, R2,9 billion was budgeted for Information Technology, Human Resource Development was allocated R1,4 billion, Personnel Services R919 million and Supply Chain Management received R3,1 billion of which R1, 182 billion had been allocated to Capital Works

Members expressed serious concerns about the performance in the Capital Works Programme. 33 building projects had been planned but only 19 had been completed. SAPS indicated that there had been challenges in terms of their working relationship with the Department of Public Works (DPW). Some projects had been commenced in 2004 and were still not completed. It emerged that investigations were being conducted into 33 of the projects and 10 SAPS personnel were suspended. A target of 42 building projects were reflected in the Annual Report but SAPS said this had been incorrectly reported as the list had not been updated. Members were concerned that the strategic plan and budget were not aligned.

 A serious matter of contention for members was the escalation of more than 2000% in Irregular Expenditure that had been highlighted by the Auditor General. More than R70 million of the R76,1 million total, had been condoned. R38 million of the irregular expenditure had been incurred for Police Day and R29 million on the FIFA World Cup. Members found this unacceptable expressed their dissatisfaction with the reason for the condonements provided by SAPS which was that the State had received value for money.

Another concern raised by members was firearm management and the number of firearms that were lost. The Firearm Control System that was in the budget was not having any impact at police stations. The delays and problems in the procurement and supply chain management processes, the increase in claims against SAPS and associated legal costs, the purchase of an aircraft for border patrols, the effectiveness of the AVL system and why the target had not been reached for the establishment of Victim Support Centres, were further concerns raised. A COPE member raised his concerns about the Contingent Liability involving the Pretoria Police Building.


Meeting report

Opening and welcome
The Chairperson welcomed the South African Police Service (SAPS) delegation and congratulated them on their contribution to the success of the FIFA World Cup as well as the reduction in the crime statistics in the year under review. She noted that serious crime such as murder had decreased. Gauteng accounted for almost 50% of crime, followed by KwaZulu Natal (KZN) and crime in the Western Cape was increasing and this could be indicative of a trend. The Portfolio Committee would visit provinces to establish what was happening and expected that the National Department would make the necessary interventions timeously. The Committee had made oversight visits to four provinces, Mpumalanga, KZN, Western Cape and Gauteng and found similar shortcomings such as poor management of firearms. They were impressed by Mpumalanga's new Provincial Commissioner's accountability. In KZN, the stock theft unit was dysfunctional and there were serious allegations of corruption and mismanagement of SAPS firearms. In the Western Cape, they had visited the Bishop Lavis Training facility and other sites. The Provincial Commissioner ignored the oversight visit of the Committee and it was not clear whether he had seen their report. In Gauteng the Committee were concerned by the appalling conditions of the Police barracks in Alexandra. Honeydew Police Station was paying a rental of more than R2,4 million per year and as yet there was no plan to build a fully-fledged police station.

The Chairperson noted that they had compiled reports on each oversight visit to the Provinces and that all the reports commented on the lack of implementation of the national regulations on the Domestic Violence Act, and non-compliance with the firearms regulations. At some police stations firearms were missing, some were not registered and were not recorded anywhere. Police Stores were in a mess excepting Pretoria and Johannesburg and a few others. While Senior Managers had been deployed to address these problems, the Committee was still uncovering such occurrences. The Committee expected that SAPS would respond to the recommendations made in the reports and that they would be proactive instead of reactive. They appreciated the cooperation of the Gauteng Provincial Commissioner and they had found unlicenced firearms together with him.

The Chairperson noted that SAPS would present the financial statements as contained in the Annual Report and that they would be focussing on the first expenditure programme i.e. Administration.

SAPS Financial Statements 2010/2011 and Report on Programme 1: Administration
The National Commissioner, General Bheki Cele, expressed his appreciation for the Chairperson's opening remarks and noted that SAPS took the Portfolio Committee's findings very seriously and that this shift should be apparent in future oversight visits. The new approach from management was to go to provinces and to police stations. Staff had to be appreciated for working under the poor conditions at some police stations especially in the rural areas where, in some instances, even toilet facilities were absent. It was not going to be easy to address backlogs but this had to be prioritised moving forward. In the context of the rural areas, slow response times were due to infrastructural problems and inaccessibility by police vehicles. Bulletproof vests were 14 kg and this impeded chasing after criminals and the possibility of lighter bullet resistant vests should be investigated. He outlined the contents of the Annual Report and noted that the Committee could be supplied with additional information if required.

Financial Report
The Chief Financial Officer, General Stefan Schutte, presented a summary of the financial statements as contained in the Annual Report (see presentation). The Income Statement reflected that SAPS had three revenue sources: the voted funds appropriated by Parliament as reflected in the Estimates of National Expenditure; Other Revenue, which was collected on behalf of South African Revenue Service (SARS) and deposited into the National Revenue Fund (NRF); Donor Funds from external donors as well as from the Criminal Assets Recovery Account (CARA).

SAPS received R53 529 740 billion from Parliament for the financial year under review and expended R53 529 700 billion and the surplus of R40 thousand was deposited back into the NRF. R287 737 million was collected under Other Revenue and R285 303 million had been deposited into the NRF as the final collection had still been in progress. The balance had been deposited in the subsequent financial year. Donor Funds and Aid Assistance received amounted to R7,5 million. R4,51 million was expended and there was a surplus of R2,890 million.

In terms of the financial performance, General Schutte noted that there had been a full utilization of the voted funds when rounded off with only R40,000 remaining. The spending policy direction for 2010/11 was indicated by the President in the State of the Nation Address which earmarked the reduction of serious and violent crimes, ensuring that the justice system worked efficiently, and the increase in the number of policemen and women and human capacity over the next three years. The contribution of SAPS to the creation of safer communities was also reflected in the Budget Speech of the Minister of Finance.

The key spending priorities were, firstly, continuous human capacity building over the next three years, particularly the increase of personnel in investigative services including general investigators, specialised investigators, forensic and crime scene analysts, and crime intelligence. Since 2001/02 to 2010/11 an additional 77,118 personnel had been appointed apart from 38,000 replacements. This reflected a 66% increase. There had been an investment in skills development such as basic training and detective development. A stipend increase had been implemented for new enlistments and they were adopting a quality above quantity approach to recruitment.

They had invested in ICT renewal in the cluster including the modernisation of the Criminal Justice System (CJS) Integrated Justice System (IJS) and hosting and network upgrades. Other priorities focused on physical infrastructure, the building environment and capital works, and to combat violent crimes more effectively, Tactical Response Teams (TRT) had been established. The 2010/11 financial year also made provision for the 2010 Soccer World Cup deployment.

General Schutte noted that departmental revenue reflected an amount of R287,737 million which was less than in the previous years. The sale of scrap and other used goods had increased against estimates. Less interest, dividends and rent on land had been received. Fines, penalties and forfeits had increased against estimates. The sale of capital assets was less than estimated, due to fewer vehicles that were boarded. Vehicles would not be compacted, as had been done previously, but auctioned off and the sale of capital assets would increase dramatically in the future. Financial transactions in assets and liabilities were more than estimated, mainly due to the fact that more debt had been collected.

General Schutte indicated the variances in the summary of the Appropriation statement that had occurred under the Department's five programmes: Administration; Visible Policing; Detective Services; Crime Intelligence; Protection and Security Services (see presentation). Virements were made in all Programmes excepting Programme 4: Detective Services. He noted that Chapter 5 of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA) provided for the Accounting Officer to approve virements within certain limitations and that the departmental expenditure had been well below the 8% variance threshold.

In his analysis of the variances, General Schutte provided a breakdown of figures under the sub-programmes and elements of the five major programmes. Under Programme 1: Administration there had been underspending of 1.1% amounting to R194, 9 million. This had occurred under the sub-programmes of the Minister and Deputy Minister and were due to salary adjustments being lower than estimated. Under the Sub-programme: Departmental Management, there had been significant over-expenditure of 38.7% amounting to R20,9 million. The allocation had been R54,314 million whilst actual expenditure had been R75,311 million. This related mainly to an increase in compensation for additional personnel and unforeseen retirements and Compensation Funds had been shifted within the Programme to accommodate for the shortfall.

Under the Sub-programme: Corporate Services there had been underspending of 1.8% totalling R292,2 million. Supply Chain Management accounted for underspending amounting to R161,9 million. Due to technical contractual difficulties, monies allocated to the TETRA Radio Communications System in the Eastern Cape were redirected to Programme 2 and 3. Capital Works Projects were increased with R115 million over and above the baseline of R1,118 billion for the construction of police stations. R69 million of the additional amount remained unspent at year-end. Funds were redirected, including to Human Resource Development, essentially for vehicles for Tactical Response Teams. There had been underspending of R36,8 million under Information and Systems Management. Overspending of R117,4 million had occurred under Administration Services due to increased claims and legal costs incurred by the State Attorney. Under Human Resource Management, overspending of R40,3 million had been incurred due to skills development, specific training interventions and the 2010 Soccer World Cup. Under Financial Services there had been underspending of R3,4 million.

Under Property Management there had been overspending of R76,2 million. The baseline of municipal services as devolved by Public Works and the National Treasury were inadequate and therefore additional funding had been received in the subsequent MTEF.

Funding for the sub-programmes under Programme 1: Administration (Minister, Deputy Minister, Management, Corporative Services) increased from R16 009 520 billion in 2009/10 financial year to R17 871 936 billion in 2010/11.

Corporate Services received R2,9 billion for Information Technology, R1,4 billion for Human Resource Development, R919 million for Personnel Services, Medical Support received R3,9 billion, and Supply Chain Management received R3,1 billion of which Capital Works was allocated R1, 182 billion.

Spending Priorities under Programme 1, were for IT including the IJS and CJS modernisation, the upgrading of network environments and hosting environments. R72,4 million had been spent on the rollout of the Automated Vehicle Location system. R16,1 million was spent to enhance the Firearm Control System. Expenditure on Human Resource Development had been increased by 13,4 % year on year.

Under Programme 2: Visible Policing there had been overspending of R201,7 million

Under Programme 3: Detective Services there had been overspending of R17,8 million.

Under Programme 4: Crime Intelligence there had been 100% expenditure.

Under Programme 5: Protection Services there had been under expenditure of R24,5 million.

Actual performance against targets: Programme 1: Administration
Lt-General Magda Stander, Human Resource Management, presented the actual performance against targets for Programme 1: Administration. The target had been to maintain a minimum workforce of 95% in terms of the approved establishment. The actual performance was 99.3 % in terms of filling the vacancies and the outstanding vacancies of 1,480 were advertised before the year-end closure.

The target for the development of Human Resources had been for 80% of learners to be declared competent after the completion of their training in 2010/11. The target was achieved with 90.2% learners declared competent. 178 870 members attended training and 161 350 members completed the training competently and Lt-Gen Stander provided a breakdown of the statistics (see presentation).

2 532 Reservists were also trained with 2 195 (86.7 %) declared competent and she noted that more than 9 000 permanent reservists had been recruited over the past few years.

Physical Resource Management
Lt-General Lea Mofomme, Physical Resource Management, reported on compensation expenditure versus operational expenditure. She noted that the target had been to maintain the expenditure ratio of not more than 73 / 27% for compensation / operational expenditure and this had been achieved.

The target had been 100% for the distribution of bullet resistant vests. This target had been achieved and 20 372 (105%) bullet resistant vests had been distributed including 2 129 inners and outers to ensure that damaged bullet resistant vests were functional.

Improving the ratio of 4.51:1 personnel to vehicle was targeted and the actual performance at year-end had been 3.93:1 with the number of personnel at 193 892 and vehicles at 49 287. Lt-Gen Mofomme noted that the target had thus been achieved and had been incorrectly reported as not achieved in the Annual Report.

In terms of the built environment, the target had been for not less than 95% of police station projects to be completed in 2010/11. There had been a target of 11 newly re-established police stations, which entailed a new structure on a new site, and six had been completed. There had been a target of ten new police stations in areas where there had not been a police station and four had been built. Six police stations had been repaired and upgraded out of a target of 11. Three re-established police stations on the same site as the existing station, had been completed out of a target of ten. Lt-Gen Mofomme noted that nine of the projects had been completed in previous years and 19 of the remaining 33 had been completed in 2010/11 resulting in an actual performance of 57.58 %. The targets had not been achieved due to project specific circumstances that included the re-advertisements of bids, non-delivery and poor performance resulting in changes of contractors, contractors not on schedule and delayed closeout of projects.

Ms A Van Wyk (ANC) noted the over-expenditure in the Sub-programme: Departmental Management, and asked for more information on the compensation for additional personnel and the number and costs of retirements including those under Section 35.

Ms Van Wyk noted that the Department's Strategic Plan indicated that a certain number of Victim Support Centres would be established and this target had not been achieved. She expressed her dissatisfaction with this and wanted an explanation. The Department's reason that they had not been budgeted for, meant that the Performance and Strategic plans were not aligned with the budget. There was an increase in crime against women and children and they were the main beneficiaries of Victim Support Centres. Funding could have come from the CARA mandate and they should clarify the use of these funds with the Auditor-General.

Ms Van Wyk was concerned that there was no significant improvement in the building environment and that they had not met their target. The A-G had found that there were no site meetings taking place and there was no management of the building process itself and that SAPS had basically given control over to the contractors. How were they going to improve on this?

Ms Van Wyk asked for a breakdown of the training statistics. How many new detectives were trained?

Mr L Ramatlakane (COPE) asked for more detail on the virement of R194 933 million to Programme 1: Administration. He wanted clarity on the overspending for the purchasing of aircraft under Sub-programme: Borderline Security for Programme 2: Visible Policing. He noted that funding had come from Programme 1. What was the reason for this virement? Was it the lack of proper planning?

Mr Ramatlakane said he was trying to construct the total picture on the infrastructure from the Strategic Plan. If there was a programme of expenditure, why were funds unspent and being shifted? He had further concerns about infrastructure, such as new constructions, police accommodation and the debate about Police Headquarters.

The Chairperson asked in which quarter of the financial year the aircraft had been bought.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) noted that R16,1 million had been spent on the Firearm Control System. Given that only 167 firearms out of 1,835 official firearms were recovered, he asked how this new system was going to impact on the recovery of stolen official firearms.

Rev Meshoe noted that 19 out of 33 building projects had been completed. One of the reasons given had been that some contractors performed poorly. What mechanisms were in place to prevent them being paid without completing the job?

Mr Meshoe asked if trainees who failed the competency tests, were retrained. What happened to them?

Mr G Schneemann (ANC) asked for clarity on the overspending under the Sub-programme: Departmental Management, relating to the increase in compensation for additional personnel and unforeseen retirements.

Mr Schneemann asked for more details on the underspending on the TETRA Radio Communication System in the Eastern Cape. The reason given was that it was due to technical contractual difficulties. Had this been resolved?

Mr Schneemann referred to the policing of borders and the purchasing of aircraft and vehicles raised by Mr Ramatlakane. He noted that the handover of this function to the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) was to take place in a phased manner. If they knew that this would take place, would it not be better to have discussions with the SANDF on what was required for the remaining border areas that SAPS was still patrolling. Would the SANDF not be able to assist with equipment without SAPS having to outlay funds for this function? Could the vehicles and aircraft be used in operational duties when they were withdrawn from the border patrols?

Mr Schneemann commented that the improvement of the personnel to vehicle ratio was encouraging. However the reality on the ground was that the ratio was much higher as visits to police stations had shown and this impacted on the work of detectives. Had they looked at the various divisions and could they explain how the ratio translated to the ground.

Mr Schneemann referred to the poor performance in reaching the target for Police Station building projects and stated that a 57% completion rate was not good enough for whatever reasons. He was concerned about projects that were supposed to be ready to be handed over. Nothing was happening at Diepsloot Police Station, which was in his constituency, and he had been informed that it was being vandalised. What was being done to safeguard the investment there even if it was incomplete?

Mr Schneemann shared the Chairperson’s concerns about the police barracks in Alexandra. He could understand if police were demotivated living under such conditions. What were the plans for these barracks?

Mr Schneemann raised the issue of the two new ranks of Lieutenant and Major and noted that nobody had been promoted to those ranks in the past financial year. What was the pay attached to those ranks and were the ranks going to be used.

Mr Schneemann noted that there had been a slight increase in the number of days for sick leave but the costs had increased significantly. What was the reason for this?

Mr P Swathe (DA) referred to the R2,9 billion that had been budgeted for Information Technology. How had that been spent? On the Committee's oversight visit to the Free State they had visited sites where there was no infrastructure for the computers to operate and they were being used as typewriters. What was the breakdown of expenditure on IT?

Mr Swathe asked for clarity on the over expenditure of R117,4 million on Administration services relating to claims and legal costs incurred by the State Attorney. How were such claims and costs going to be addressed in the future?

Mr Swathe referred to the overspending of R40,3 million on Human Resource Management and noted that it was spent on training such as for K53 driving licences. How many people were trained, how much money was spent and in which ranks were the people who received training?

Mr G Lekgetho (ANC) expressed his appreciation for the good work done by SAPS during the FIFA world Cup. He agreed with Mr Schneemann that the 57% completion of police building projects was very low. What was SAPS intending to do about the police stations that had not been built.

Mr Lekgetho asked for a breakdown of the Tactical Response Teams in the provinces. He noted that there were 176 Family and Child Sectoral units throughout the country and wanted a breakdown on that.

Mr Lekgetho noted the learnerships for Forensic Science and he wanted an update on the learnerships.

Ms M Molebatsi (ANC) asked when they would receive an update about what was happening about TETRA.

Ms Molebatsi referred to the expenditure for the Firearm Control System and observed that there was no control of firearms at police stations. How would this system change this? What action was taken when a police officer lost a firearm?

Ms Molebatsi queried the training and competency testing for trainees. Did they receive a competency certificate? What happened if they failed? Did they re-enter the programme?

Ms D Kohler-Barnard (DA) asked how many SAPS members did not have driver's licences. Police vehicles had high mileage figures and vehicles were not available in emergencies. There had been a change in the regulations to accept people without a drivers licence and what was the impact of this. Unlicensed police members should not be allowed to drive official vehicles.

Ms Kohler-Barnard queried whether there had been fewer training opportunities under the year under review. From the parliamentary questions, it had emerged that 45% of station managers were not trained to be station managers. Why was SAPS promoting people who were not qualified for those positions? They had discovered that at police stations, members only went to firearm practice once a year. With regard to the military ranks, she had enquired what they did in the SANDF about promotions, and the rate was 10.86% for critical positions in the past year. In SAPS people were in positions for up to 14 years and were doing senior jobs with very low pay scales. The SANDF had promoted 2.7 % of their personnel overall while SAPS had only promoted 0,19% of its staff. There was no career path and that was why people left. What was the reason for the low rate of promotion? Some members were bounced up by five or six stages at once and this affected the morale of the people on the ground.

Ms Kohler-Barnard queried the claim made for the improvement on the issuing of firearm licences. On their oversight visits to police stations, the Committee had found numerous licences in boxes which had never been handed to members and some of them had already expired.

Ms Kohler-Barnard raised the issue of reservists and said that people were being turned away although SAPS was saying that they needed their help. She noted that the moratorium on enlisting reservists had been lifted but the Secretary of Police maintained that it had not. People were offering their services on a voluntary basis at their local police stations and she wanted answers.

Ms Kohler-Barnard commented that the Committee had received a presentation by the A-G the previous day and it had been informed that irregular expenditure had increased by more than 2000%. R22 million had been spent on Police Day. Excuses had been made about time constraints but SAPS was aware that the tender process took three months. Something fishy was going on and she had been informed that family members of SAPS officials were receiving contracts. What was happening? She had raised the issues before and been brushed off and she wanted an explanation.

Ms P Mocumi (ANC) queried how the Automatic Vehicle Location for the control of vehicles operated.

Ms Mocumi was concerned by the high staff turnover as it was mostly senior staff who resigned.

Ms Mocumi was concerned by the gender representivity of SAPS as evident in few females in the delegation.

Ms Mocumi queried the irregular expenditure raised by the AG and listed accommodation, meals and renovation of buildings.

Ms Mocumi asked if SAPS or the Department of Public Works (DPW) was responsible for the buildings.

Ms Mocumi raised the issue of claims against SAPS such as those resulting from the negligence of police officers and asked what was being done to prevent it from recurring.

Mr V Ndlovu (IFP) noted the numerous virements and asked who condoned them and what process was followed.

Mr Ndlovu raised the issue of corruption in SAPS and commented that it was rising. What was the problem, were members being bought and was it related to whether they received good salaries or not? Who did the investigations into corruption?

Mr Ndlovu queried family murders involving SAPS Members. Did they have psychologists dealing with matter and was it stress related or did it involve corruption.

Mr M George (COPE) asked if R72,4 million spent on the Automatic Vehicle Location System had made any significant change.

Mr George queried the R16,1 million spent on the Firearm Control System and when it was implemented. The Committee had not seen any evidence of this system. His opinion was that the police were arming criminals. 1, 335 firearms were lost or stolen from police stations. What were they doing to stop this?

Mr George expressed his concern with the National Commissioner's statement that some police stations had no toilets. How many police stations in the country did not have this basic facility? Septic tanks could be provided at a reasonable cost and it was unacceptable for members not to have toilets.

Mr George noted the limitation of 8% for virements but with a budget of % R53,5 billion, virements equated to huge amounts.

Mr George said that LT-Gen Mofomme had reported that many targets had not been met in the building programme. These were targets that SAPS had set themselves and the explanation given for not reaching them was unsatisfactory.

The Chairperson addressed the National Commissioner about the irregular expenditure of R76,1 million in 2010/11 in comparison to R2,5 million in 2009/10. A large percentage had been condoned and this had to be accounted for.

The Chairperson referred to the building projects and the discrepancy in the Strategic Plan and the Annual Report on the number of projects. She queried what the status was of Roodeplaat Dog Unit. She asked what the cost implications were for all the projects that were not completed. What were the estimated costs and the projected completion dates. How much had been spent thus far and where would they be getting the funds. What was being done about structures that were standing empty and being vandalised?

The Chairperson asked about their procurement processes and supply chain management and how long it took to supply police stations with their requirements. There were complaints about the time it took. Quotations were supplied and expired and they had to repeat the process of getting quotes. Who was accountable for procurement in the Department and could they give clarity on the supply chain management. What was the role of the whole Supply Chain Management division? Did they have a procurement policy that was coordinated? Who were the Bid Evaluators? What was the authority of the Divisional Commissioner in the supply chain management?

The Chairperson asked for the Committee to be supplied with a list of senior appointments made where posts had not been advertised, the reasons why people were appointed in such a manner and the reasons why other people were not given a fair chance to apply.

Gen Cele responded broadly on the questions raised. He commented that the staff turnover was not as high as the 43% reported and many police members returned after they had resigned. He admitted that the issue of buildings and infrastructure was more difficult as it involved SAPS and the DPW. They had explained that there were 42 facilities but the list had to be cleaned up as some projects had been completed and had to be removed from the list. There were problems with land and local government and environmental issues in the urban areas. They found it easier in the rural areas, there were still environmental issues but there was more cooperation in the rural areas. They were working on alternative methods in terms of the supply chain management with DPW. He noted that there were 26 TRT units around the country. There were meant to be 50 members in each unit but there was a high rate of failure of candidates for the units. They had recruited 240 in KZN but only 41 had passed. This highly trained unit was very effective and they were also training other specialised units to deal with stock theft for example. They were considering station specialised units at police stations where there was high reporting of incidents.

Lt -Gen Gary Kruser, presented the Capital Works Programme for 2010/11 (see presentation). He addressed the issue of the 42 police stations on the building programme and noted that nine of the projects had already been completed in previous financial years.

The Chairperson said that this was not according to the Strategic Plan and noted that there were implications behind this. She noted that the figure was thus 33 building projects

Lt-Gen Kruser could not account for why they had been reflected there. He had not been there when this had occurred. He could supply a breakdown of the cost implications in writing.

The Chairperson asked if there had been a budget for 42 projects in the 2010/11 financial year. Was the strategic plan aligned with the budget?

Lt Gen Kruser replied that he was not sure if the strategic plan had been aligned with the budget.

Lt Gen Kruser indicated that the Projects in Mora were Public Works programmes. Diepsloot was 75% completed. The budget allocation was R68 million and R51 million had been spent at that stage. The feedback they had received from DPW had been that there were technicalities relating to the construction of the building. DPW had to take responsibility if additional funding was required.

Lt Gen Kruser elaborated on the Roodepoort Dog Unit Project which was being undertaken by Public Works on behalf of SAPS. It was a multi-year project and phase one had been scheduled for completion in 2010/11 and the total costs were R622 million.

The Chairperson queried the enormous cost.

Lt Gen Kruser replied that the dog school college in Pretoria West was in a residential area and had to move and the new facility would be two facilities in one. The new facility was in a rural area and there were additional infrastructural costs.

Mr Ndlovu noted that if it was in a deep rural area, they would have to provide the infrastructure for electricity and water.

Ms Kohler-Barnard was concerned about contractors going bankrupt. Who was choosing companies that could go bankrupt? Was this Public Works? She said that they should have the Minister of Public Works there but it was difficult to find her. Why were they not utilizing reputable companies?

The Chairperson said the Minister of Public Works was definitely available to attend meetings. The Committee meeting she had to attend previously had been postponed.

Mr Ramatlakane was concerned about over-expenditure and said the Accounting Officer should deal with this. He noted that there had to be an insurance cover when buildings were being constructed for protection if the construction company went bankrupt. Was there such an arrangement to protect the State's financial interests?

Mr Schneemann asked if there were checks and balances when a tender was awarded as there had been a number of incidents where contractors had not completed projects.

The Chairperson asked how they established if the costs had been inflated.

Gen Cele said that there were building projects undertaken by SAPS and others involved Public Works. The processes of insurance, contractors and quotations and all the problems with buildings involved Public Works.

Mr George commented that the money came from the budget of the police, whether it was done by Public Works or not, and they had the responsibility to see that the necessary checks and balances were in place.

Gen Cele said that they should not restructure government and if they were told that Public Works was the custodian of the buildings, then they accepted that. They were having meetings with Public Works and the skills and knowledge to run the projects resided with them, not the Police. He hoped that they would not be moving in the direction where the police would be blamed for work that had been done by other departments who had full responsibility and authority over what was done.

The Chairperson commented that Public Works could not really impose their conditions when the budget was coming from SAPS and that was why they were querying the amount of R622 million. They wanted to be assured that the cost was correct
 Lt Gen Kruser said that for every project, they engaged quantity surveyors who established if there was value for money according to the accepted norms. That particular contract had been signed before he was there.

Gen Cele said that there were new mechanisms that had been put in place. He noted that some of the building phases dragged on but ultimately authority lay with their sister department, Public Works.

The Chairperson observed that it was an old project that had cost more than half a billion rand.

Lt-Gen Kruser said there were mechanisms in place for all the projects and they attended site meetings. He indicated the projects that had been completed. A project that was not completed was Letsitele Police Station, which was a SAPS project and they were expecting it to be completed at the end of the current financial year.

Ms Van Wyk asked if the projects had been completed within the timeframes and within cost or was there over expenditure.

Lt-Gen Kruser replied that Bisho Police Station was a SAPS project. The allocation had been R5,5 million but they had spent R6,3 million to complete the project as there had been challenges.

Ms Van Wyk said that he had given them the total cost and over expenditure for the DPW projects and there should be consistency in reporting. They wanted a clearer picture.
Lt-Gen Kruser replied that the projection for Bisho had been R7,5 million and the total expenditure had been R29 million. He supplied figures for some of the other projects.

Gen Cele noted that 33 of the projects were under investigation by the Special Investigating Unit (SIU) and he had been informed that progress was being made. They would know what was happening in the following month.

Lt-Gen Kruser said that charges had been laid against officials and one had been found guilty the previous week. Two colonels had been charged and five captains. They had replaced all the brigadiers and they were taking action at all levels to improve the situation.

Mr George asked if he knew how many police stations did not have basic facilities such as toilets.

Ms Van Wyk commented that issues only became issues when raised by the Committee through its reports. She appreciated what the National Commissioner was striving to do, but SAPS members present had been there and had allowed things to happen that should not have happened.

Rev Meshoe asked if the cases being investigated by the SIU were SAPS or DPW projects. Were the cases being investigated, building projects that were coming from 2004? He could not understand how projects could take seven years to complete.
Ms Kohler-Barnard said that it had just been revealed that ten people were under investigation. How long had this been going on and how many millions had been lost? Extraordinary amounts were spent on police buildings. People without the expertise were being placed in positions they had no right to be in. She found it inexcusable and asked if the people had been suspended and if it was in the Annual Report. Were they hiding the evidence?

Mr Schneemann referred to the various categories of police stations. He requested an update on the costing for police station building projects being undertaken in the current and subsequent financial year as that would assist the Committee to monitor costs.

The Chairperson noted that a review of the 2010-14 Strategic Plan could not be avoided.

 LT-Gen Kruser said that they would review the Strategic Plan.

Gen Cele explained that SAPS management had realised that there were deeper problems in the Department and had requested to be investigated by SIU in November 2009 after meeting with the head of the SIU. There would be a progress report that would indicate they were addressing their challenges.

Maj Gen Mantsi said that there were 130 police stations in dire need of basic infrastructure such as water, electricity and sewerage. 87 police stations required sewerage infrastructure. They were exploring alternative sources of electricity. Generators and mini sub-stations were options and they had a breakdown of the costs.

Lt-Gen Kruser said that the total budget for this purpose in the current financial year, was R53,6 million. This would be utilized where there were problems with municipal services, especially in the rural areas.

The Chairperson asked if the R53,6 million would be sufficient.

Lt-Gen Kruser said that they would be doing the 130 most critical police stations in the first round and they had budgeted for it.

Gen Cele noted that they had identified the need by going to the police stations and there were desperate situations. The barracks and squalid conditions some members were living in elsewhere, were the context of many members’ lives and accommodation problems and backlogs had to be addressed.

The Chairperson asked who was responsible for procurement and supply chain management in the Department.

Lt-Gen Mofomme replied that purchases above R500 000 had to be advertised and approved by the Bid Adjudication Committee (BAC) that was appointed by the National Commissioner.

The Chairperson asked about the supply chain management.

Lt-Gen Mofomme replied that supply chain management provided the guidelines which were in line with the Treasury Regulations. There was a supply chain management manual which stipulated exactly which processes had to be followed. Irregular expenditure occurred when the regulations were not followed. There were also Bid Evaluation Committees.

The Chairperson asked about the role of the Provincial Commissioners. She repeated that there were complaints from police stations that quotations expired and some suppliers were no longer willing to give quotations. Who was ultimately accountable?

Lt-Gen Mofomme said it depended on what they wanted to procure and she asked Maj Gen Mokwena, Head of Procurement, to explain the process.

Maj Gen Mokwena said that from the time a request was received to when the bid was awarded, took 90 days. This included 21 working days for the advertisement process. Items above R200 000 had to be approved by the Divisional Commissioner. In the case of vehicles, there were transversal contracts that were awarded by National Treasury and cost effectiveness was taken into account.

The Chairperson asked if they had a procurement policy.

Maj Gen Mokwena replied that they did. There could be only one procurement policy according to the PFMA.

The Chairperson asked what the role of the National Commissioner was. They had been informed that all bids had to be checked by the National Commissioner. How did this impact on the length of time? There were serious delays and she wanted to know how long the process took.

Lt-Gen Karel Haaseman reported on vehicles and on the Automated Vehicle Location (AVL) system. Currently the intention was to equip all vehicles with AVL units. 40,379 vehicles had the unit and they were in the process of rolling it out to the remaining 6,600 vehicles. In each cluster there was a person responsible for drawing reports on all the vehicles and computers had been provided for this purpose. They could draw reports to indicate the location of vehicles at any particular time.

Mr George asked if there had been any improvement at this stage, after the rollout, or was it too early to make an assessment.

Gen Haaseman said it was still too early but there had been an increase in the number of verbal warnings.

Ms Mocumi said that the system had been implemented for longer than a year and yet they could not report on its effectiveness. There were vehicles at national level but most vehicles were at police stations. To assess the functionality of the system why was it not implemented at police station level first? Police vehicles were spotted in questionable places when they should be at police stations or at the scenes of crime. When they went to police stations, nobody could say where the vehicles were at a particular time.
Ms Van Wyk agreed that it had been longer than a year since the AVL system had been implemented. She had received a report from Pietermaritzburg that police vehicles from the Dog Unit and Crime Stop unit had been used to tow the boats of members to the dam over the weekend.

Lt Gen Kruser said if they had the AVL units they could draw a report. The movement of vehicles were monitored and he received reports and they were ensuring that the system was properly utilized and monitored.

The Chairperson enquired about the costs involved and what the impact of the AVL system was in curbing the misuse of vehicles. There should have been a report from the pilot project that indicated if the misuse of vehicles was being eradicated. A drop in petrol usage, cars being used in the early hours of the morning and fewer maintenance costs would be indicators.

Ms Van Wyk challenged LT-Gen Kruser to take up the incident of misuse of police vehicles she had mentioned which had involved the Crime Stop Unit and the Dog Unit. It was necessary to establish the impact and effectiveness of the system. She asked for the timelines when the AVL would be fully rolled out and fully operational.

Lt-Gen Kruser said the average cost of a vehicle without AVL was R17, 457 per annum and the average cost of a vehicle with AVL was R12,140. There was thus a reduction in costs as people were aware that they were being monitored. They were training Commanders how to use the system effectively. A new mechanism would indicate when vehicles needed to be serviced and this would improve the management of vehicles. He said they would supply a progress report shortly.

The Chairperson asked if the ten officers under investigation had been suspended. Who were they?

Lt-Gen Kruser replied that he did not have the details.

The Chairperson enquired about the resignations he had mentioned.

Lt-Gen Kruser said that Brigadier Van Vuuren resigned when they charged the departmental head.

In reply to the Chairperson asking what the charges were, Lt-Gen Kruser said it was for various expenditure on buildings in 2004.

Lt Gen Kruser addressed the personnel to vehicle ratio and the distribution of vehicles. They were having discussions with provinces on the matter to ensure that it was effectively done, especially for detectives.

Gen Schutte responded to the questions on border policing and said the intention was to hand over this to the SANDF. The purchased helicopter was paid for in the first quarter of the past financial year. It had a dual purpose and was used for operational crime prevention as well.

Mr George said that the question was how the aircraft had been budgeted for.

Gen Schutte replied there had been foreign exchange increases and over-expenditure was unfortunate.

Gen Schutte said that Lt-Gen Stander would respond on the departmental management and the increases in personnel costs for retirements. They had foreseen retirements but early retirements could not be predicted.

On the breakdown for the IT expenditure, Gen Schutte requested that it be postponed to the following week when the TMS appeared before the Committee.

Gen Schutte said that R89 million had been spent on legal costs. This and contingent liabilities were reflected in an annexure to the financial statements in the Annual Report.

Gen Schutte said that HR expenditure for basic training was R145 million for the new enlistments, which included food and learning materials.

Gen Schutte said that the full report on irregular expenditure was in a note in the Annual Report. In 2009/10 irregular expenditure was R2,5 million and it increased to R76,million in 2010/11, which was a significant increase percentage wise. The number of cases for 2009/10 had been 56 and in 2010/11 there were 64 cases. Irregular Expenditure incurred on Police Day amounted to R38 million and in KZN, accommodation in connection with the FIFA World Cup amounted to R29 million. These were the two major contributors to the increase in irregular expenditure.

Ms A van Wyk asked if the condonement had gone via Treasury? She also enquired about the status of disciplinary hearings.

Gen Schutte replied that the condonements were done by the Bid Adjudication Committee according to the prescripts and the specific accounting standards on irregular expenditure. Disciplinary steps were taken in 43 incidents but he did not have the details of the outcomes of the cases but it could be provided. Irregular expenditure emanated from non-compliance with procurement prescripts especially where it related to the procurement transactions. Non-compliance with prescripts in the awarding of a purchase or the awarding of a bid constituted an irregular expenditure. There was a specific reporting procedure that had to be followed when irregular expenditure was identified. It had to be put in a register and the Bid Adjudication had to take a decision and make recommendations. In terms of the recovery of funds, if the prescripts were not followed but value for the money expended was received, then a recovery could not be made. In the case of vehicles, for example, they could not have the benefit of the vehicle and a recovery. Recovery came into effect when an irregular procurement expense contributed to a higher price or to an unwanted item. Under fruitless expenditure, recovery was possible as normally there was a debtor and the loss could be recovered.

Ms Van Wyk noted that disciplinary action had been taken but there were still questions. She referred to the Police Day and noted the payment for entertainment. They still needed answers as the increase in irregular expenditure was huge given the fact that the target for Victim Support Centres had not been achieved.

Ms Mocumi referred to the A-G audit findings in the Annual Report and asked why the Accounting Officer had not ensured compliance with the prescripts of the PFMA. If the PFMA was not complied with, there had to be recourse. What steps had been taken against officials?

Gen Schutte said they would provide details to the Committee on the status of the disciplinary action taken.

Maj Gen Mokwena responded on the condonements, saying the reason they had condoned the expenditure was that in all instances the State had received value for money. He reiterated what Gen Schutte had said - they could not make a recovery as the State had not incurred any losses.

The Chairperson asked if he was saying that the huge amounts spent on accommodation and meals happened properly and that the problem was that they had not followed the correct procurement processes.

Maj Gen Mokwena responded that this was 'exactly' so and that if his memory served him well that was for the World Cup security deployment of SAPS members.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if she could have feedback on an investigation into a R60 million scam in KZN involving SAPS members and accommodation for the World Cup.

Mr Ndlovu cautioned Maj Gen Mokwena to be sure of what he was saying regarding the condonements as he could incriminate himself. If there were condonements, it raised questions.

Ms Van Wyk said questions had been raised in Parliament on the costs incurred for the deployment of SAPS for security purposes during the World Cup. Costs of R87 million had been recovered and this was why members wanted Gen Mokwena to be sure of what he was saying.

The Chairperson added that if it was correct, why were they investigating? And why had the Office of the A-G expressed itself so strongly on the matter?

Maj-Gen Mokwena repeated that the State had received value for money in all irregular expenditure condoned by the Bid Adjudication Committee.

The Chairperson said that according to the Annual Report, irregular expenditure had been R76,1 million and everything had been condoned except R5,6 million which meant that more than R70 million had been condoned. The question was, what were they investigating and were people charged for the expenditure that was not condoned. The Minister had reported cost recovery as indicated by Ms Van Wyk. There were huge amount for expenditure for artists and performers, catering, communications, advertising and others which had all been condoned. The Committee needed to be informed on why they had deviated from the PFMA and who benefited.

Mr George commented that if they were saying that in all transactions the State had not lost. Who determined if the state had received value for money? Were they saying that there was no limit and that they could spend all the budget as irregular expenditure as long as it was condoned and the state received value for money? What was the sense of having procedures?

Maj Gen Mokwena replied that when people were investigated for irregular expenditure, they would go and find out what happened. In all cases where the state had received value for money, procurement processes had not been completely followed.

Ms Van Wyk said that the explanations were getting worse and Maj Gen Mokwena had to speak to the issues in the report and the actual events. What were the reasons they could not go to tender or get quotations and why were procedures not followed?

Maj Gen Mokwena said that quotations were received and financial authority obtained, the end user was paid and the expenditure was used in the interest of the State. They had only condoned cases where procurement authority had not been obtained.

Mr Ndlovu said that the A-G's findings indicated that three quotations had not been obtained and other matters such as poor planning. He agreed with Mr George on the implications of the way condonements were being done. He added to Ms Van Wyk's request for him to address the issues in the documents.

The Chairperson addressed the National Commissioner and said the Committee did not understand or accept the condonement of the irregular expenditure. They required a better explanation and wanted to know exactly what had happened including why it had been so easy to condone R70 million.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said if the Committee condoned it, it would happen again and they needed to know what had happened. What were the repercussions and who was being held accountable? The A-G had said they had only been able to audit a sample of SAPS operations.
Lt-Gen Mofomme elaborated on the procurement process, saying if there was a need for procurement and if they went ahead without following all the procedures, that would constitute irregular expenditure. Departmental steps were taken against the persons responsible for not following procedures and this was what was being investigated. Previously people were just given verbal warnings but it was being treated more seriously, currently.
The Chairperson said they were talking about R76 million and she was questioning the huge amounts that had been spent such as R11,9 million on artists and performers. Further huge amounts were spent on accommodation, meals, transport, contractors, catering, inventory, communications and advertising. She said it had become a practice and a way of doing things and this was unacceptable. What motivated people to accumulate so much irregular expenditure? SAPS had a huge budget of R53,5 billion and it seemed this made the amount for irregular expenditure appear less. Comparatively speaking, even the amount of irregular expenditure not condoned was millions and could run a division in other departments.

Ms Van Wyk felt strongly that the BAC should not have condoned expenditure for Police Day as it was not an emergency and was in the SAPS diary. She felt that it could mean that every cent had to be accounted for, including the cost of the food parcels that had been distributed, which she heard not everybody had received. The money came from the taxes of citizens and they could not allow the Department to have a 3000% increase in irregular expenditure. She noted this was their Annual Report about things that had happened and they should not be thinking about the answers. She could not understand the reluctance to give the answers as they were the people responsible.

Mr George said that some of the things that emerged could be very detrimental to the Department. Maj Gen Mokwena's explanation for the condonements was flawed and it was being abused as there were no checks and balances. This could lead to allegations of fraud and investigations by the Hawks.

Ms Kohler-Barnard said that R11, 9 million had been spent on artists and performers to appear for a few hours on for Police Day. She did not believe that severe action had been taken as had been reported and she felt that management was not taking the issues seriously.

Mr Ndlovu said that he supported the Chairperson's call for the meeting to move on as they were not getting answers.

The Chairperson agreed with Ms Kohler-Barnard's previous statement that the A-G had only audited a sample of SAPS and the full picture could be worse. She requested that the National Commissioner provide a detailed report on the Irregular Expenditure including a report on the Bid Adjudication Committee.

Human Resource Utilisation and Personnel Management: Programme 1: Administration
Lt Gen Stander reported on the statistics for staff turnover for the 2010/11 financial year which amounted to 2, 761 termination of services (1,4 %). The retirements figure was 481 including the 19 people whose services were terminated in terms of Section 35 of the Police Services Act which provided for this under the rules of the Government Pension Fund. No costs were incurred by SAPS except severance pay costs and this amounted to R31 million for the 19 persons.

In terms of Promotions, Lt-Gen Stander stated that there had been few promotions in the financial year under review. The reason was because of new internal rank structures from 1 April 2010. They had to go back to the Bargaining Council where they had to re-negotiate their promotion policy. That had been signed in the first half of 2011 and in the current financial year there had been 5,310 promotions.

Lt-Gen Stander said that the increased costs for sick leave related to sick leave where medical certificates had been provided and the increase in the number of sick leave days allowed and thus the monetary value had also increased. They were monitoring the prevalence of sick leave at station level. Interventions were in place to see that sick leave was being properly managed and a decrease in sick leave had already been apparent.

Ms Van Wyk requested specific details of Senior Managers who took retirement under Section 35 as she had information about persons who retired under section 35 but who did not fit the criteria.

Ms Mocumi queried the statistics for the staff turnover as according to the Annual Report (p 204) it was 43%.

Ms Stander explained that the statistics reflected a percentage of the reasons why people left.

Ms Mocumi asked if there were strategies for the retention of staff.

Gen Cele said that they made an effort to retain staff but when people received specialised training their skills were sought after. They were also not recording the many staff who returned.

Lt-General Stander said staff turnover had decreased in comparison to previous years and staff losses were monitored by HR so that they could sustain their establishment. She would supply the information on advertised posts as requested by the Chairperson.

Lt-Gen Stander reported on the statistics for training including basic training, training of detectives and training under crime prevention and victim support (see presentation).

Ms Van Wyk was encouraged that SAPS was addressing the backlogs of untrained detectives and enquired by which date all detectives would have received the training required.

The Chairperson shared her concerns about the serious backlogs in the training of detectives as it delayed prosecutions and prevented convictions and said they should focus on this moving forward.

Gen Cele was concerned that they were getting involved in the SAPS management. SAPS management had gone all out to correct matters such as the training and quality of detectives, their workload and the distribution of Caseloads and vehicles
Lt-Gen S Lebeya highlighted training for detectives and said that there was the old training detective course and the new detective training course and staff were updated in specialised areas. Specialised training was provided for sexual offences and family violence and Station Commanders received specific training.

Mr Mathe asked about the over expenditure and the allocation of funds for training.

Lt Gen Stander said that she did not have the figure for Training but would provide it in writing.

Gen Schutte the training costs in the budget had been R160 million.

Lt- Gen Stander said that 3 139 members received K53 Training. It was not SAPS policy to allow members to drive without licences. They had responded to questions in Parliament on this and they were working with the Department of Home Affairs using the Electronic National Traffic Information System (eNaTIS) to establish if members had a valid drivers licence.

Lt -Gen Stander confirmed that there were forensic science learnerships and they had trained 199 people in the past financial year.

Lt Gen Stander said that station commanders had received management training and provided the statistics (see presentation)

The Chairperson said that the reality at police stations was different and it did not seem as if the Station Commanders were trained and some did not implement what they had been trained in. Did they have a system to monitor this?

Ms Kohler-Barnard noted that 100% of Station Management were declared competent. In response to parliamentary questions she had been informed that only 760 of them were fully qualified and she wanted to know what was the correct information.

Maj Gen Mokwena responded that the provinces prioritised and nominated people for training. Sometimes they sent the same person but the training was relevant. At provincial and station level there were training Committee meetings to ensure that the training was relevant and enhanced their functionality.

The Chairperson questioned whether the training was implemented as members at police station did not know what the national instructions were. There were other members who had not been nominated for training and were doing the work. When it came to promotions those who received training got promoted while those who were doing the work did not.

Gen Cele agreed that there were people who monopolised the training and management had to monitor to see that there was equal opportunities for all. At management level there were people who were literally living oversees and others felt excluded from overseas training opportunities.

Responding to the question of Ms Kohler-Barnard, Lt-Gen Stander said that the 100% completion rate was for Station management who had completed all the training modules.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked if she was incorrect in her interpretation of the 100%.

Lt-Gen Stander said that the 100% was in respect of the Station Commanders who had attended the training.

The Chairperson asked if the numbers reflected that the same person had received training for different modules.

Lt-Gen Stander responded that the person would have to complete all the modules within a 24 month period. They had to provide a portfolio of evidence of what they did in practice, for assessment.

The Chairperson said that one person went for training three times and it was recorded as three.

The Chairperson asked if the members wanted their questions to be responded to in writing.

Mr Ndlovu noted that many questions had not been responded to.

Ms Mocumi commended SAPs for developing a backlog turnaround strategy. What strategy did they have for applicants to receive their firearm licences and that they did not stay at the stations till they expired.

Ms Mocumi noted that rhinos were an endangered species and she asked what had been done about the killing of rhinos, as it was a thorn in the flesh of the country.

Mr Lekgetho referred to the suspension of SAPS members, solely to allow the investigations to proceed smoothly. 48 had been suspended with pay and 215 had been suspended without pay. He asked what criteria were used to suspend them with pay or without pay. How long would it take to investigate 215 people without pay? When somebody was suspended without pay and the person was a breadwinner then one could be converting the children into criminals.

Mr Ramatlakane referred to the presentation the Committee had received from the A-G on the Annual Report on the previous day. They had been informed that the General had condoned some of the irregular expenditure personally. The troubling one was about the Contingency Liabilities and the A-G's finding of material non-disclosure of the amount of over R600 million relating to the Pretoria Office contract. What were the measures being taken that this figure would be the only liability under consideration when they came back next year and nothing more. It had been a matter of emphasis in the A-G's report. The figure had been supplied by SAPS and it was problematic if the General said that they could not be held responsible for that figure.

Ms Van Wyk said she had more questions but she was still waiting for a response to her question on the Victim Support Centres.

The Chairperson said questions that were not answered had to be responded to in writing. She was concerned that there had been nothing in the annual performance plan on the purchase of aircraft

The Chairperson asked for more information about the amount of R82,3 million owed to SAPS by the Department of Mineral Resources.

The Chairperson asked about the expenditure that had been earmarked for ICT renewal of the Criminal Justice System (CJS) and Integrated Justice System (IJS). Was the money used for the intended purposes and could they give a breakdown of the expenditure.

The Chairperson asked why CARA funds had not been used for the Victim Support Centres.

The Chairperson raised the issue of claims against the Department. Claims were increasing and they had to know why.

The Chairperson noted the increase in expenditure and referred to contracts for Cleaning and Gardening Services The last police station they had visited had been filthy. What was the way forward in this regard?

The Chairperson referred to the payment of the State Information Technology Agency (SITA) and yet there was an increase in payments for external computer services providers.

 Ms Van Wyk noted that the Belgian funding for strategic management training had not been mentioned in the Annual Report and they needed details on how it was used.

Ms Van Wyk noted the increase in consultancy fees specifically for laboratory services and wanted an explanation for this.

Mr George commented that firearms control was critical. Many South Africans were living in fear of armed criminals and asked how it could be established if they were using firearms stolen from SAPS.

Lt-Gen Kruser responded on the queries about the Victim Support Centres, and said they had only been able to complete 27. In the current financial year they hoped to reach the target.

Lt-Gen Kruser said there had been a 65% reduction in the loss of firearms.

Ms Van Wyk said she was not convinced that the figures for the loss of firearms was correct. The police stations did not even know they had lost firearms till the Committee had visited them and the issue of firearm control had to be looked at in more detail.

Mr George said that in the presentation SAPS had spoken about the implementation of a firearm control system but they were not convinced from what they had observed at police stations.

The Chairperson said the problem was that there were no consequences. If one went to the nearest police station one could see that the firearms were not being controlled simply by asking for the firearm register. From the signatures it would be apparent that there were serious problems in accountability in the issuing and receiving of firearms and controlling the keys for their safekeeping. There was a serious lack of basic management principles in terms of the keeping and checking of records and in some cases police management were unaware that firearms had gone missing.

The Chairperson thanked the delegation from SAPS and said that they would continue the interaction on the following day when they addressed Programme 2: Visible Policing.

The meeting was adjourned.



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