The Committee completed asking questions on the previous day’s briefing on Programme 2 on Visible Policing. Questions included the process for signing of contracts by SAPS, targets for victim support centres, over-expenditure on management, and a request for an updated organogram
Programme 3: Detective Services said SAPS would be prioritizing detective training and mentoring. The targets for court-ready cases for different types of crimes were presented. Members were concerned about the decrease in the detection rate for crimes committed against children, asked what was the average case load per detective, how much did the delays of SAPS contribute to overcrowding in police cells, highlighted the importance of competent branch commanders and spoke about conviction rates. The Committee pleaded for closer cooperation between detectives and the prosecutors. Programme 4: Crime Intelligence explained the plans to improve delivery and clear backlogs. The new head of the Forensics Department was congratulated on improvements. Questions were raised about the Forensics department decentralising from Pretoria to Durban, the status of the automated Genetic Sample Processing System and the Marshal system, the problem of securing where evidence was kept and whether in terms of technology the Forensics Department was ready to implement the fingerprint aspect of the Criminal Law Forensic Procedures Amendment Bill.
The Committee agreed that there were a number of positive plans coming out of the presentations. The Committee adopted the SAPS Annual Performance Plan. The Chairperson stressed that the Committee was representing members of the public. SAPS was considered to be an apex department and its actions had to reflect the fact that it was a priority department.
Chairperson's Opening Remarks
The Chairperson said she had learnt with some concern of the intended arrest of the head of crime intelligence for SAPS. The charges were serious and where crime was suspected the law had to take its course. Everyone was innocent until proven guilty. The intended arrest proved that all people were equal before the law. The Committee would be monitoring the matter. The processes of law had to prevail without interference from anyone. She went on to open the floor for any questions that the Members had from the previous day’s meeting.
Mr V Ndlovu (IFP) pointed out that one of his questions had not been responded to. He asked what the Department was doing to address the matter and if there were solutions, what were the solutions.
Ms A Van Wyk (ANC) stressed that she was still asking about the over-expenditure on management. Also how was the decrease in stolen public firearms going to be achieved by SAPS?
The Chairperson asked what would normally happen when a contract was signed and who was supposed to be present.
Ms Van Wyk requested that SAPS supply an updated organogram of who was in what position.
Mr M George (COPE) asked whether they were going to get a detailed programme for Visible Policing since what they were given the previous day was insufficient.
Ms Van Wyk noted the target for victim support centres. She asked what the current situation was. How many had been established last year and this year and how many would be established in 2012?
General Bheki Cele, SAPS National Commissioner, noted that some of the questions needed detailed responses such as that on the victim support centres and they would not have the information at this meeting. State firearms were more than just police firearms. A committee of all armed agencies of the state would be formed in order to pull together the status on lost firearms from SAPS, South African National Defense Force, Metro Police and the Department of Correctional Services since lost firearms were the responsibility of SAPS. In the stolen firearms category, there were firearms which SAPS could not determine if they were state firearms because the number had been erased.
Ms Van Wyk stressed again how SAPS was going to measure the SAPS target for Visible Policing to reduce the incidence of stolen or lost firearms by 3%. She asked whether the target might have been captured wrongly. She requested a detailed written response on this.
Gen Cele said that an updated organogram would be submitted. He said General Mazibuko would be in a better position to respond to Mr Ndlovu’s question.
Lieutenant General Molefe, Executive Legal Officer, responded to the question on how a contract was signed by saying that both signatories and a witness had to be present. The witness would have to testify not only to the content but also to the fact that the others signing the contract were parties to the contract. The National Commissioner or any other person who had been delegated could sign the contract.
The Chairperson asked what if it was not the ideal situation.
Mr Ndlovu asked whether contracts were signed at the same time and on the same date.
Lt Gen Molefe responded that it was correct.
Mr Ndlovu asked what really happened.
Ms Van Wyk asked who were delegated to sign contracts on behalf of the National Commissioner and whether there were certain monetary values that limited the signing such as the involvement of virements or the processes needed to take place before the signing of contracts. She requested that the Committee get the process that was followed until a contract was signed such as the needs assessment and the different committees such as the adjudication committee and the names of the committee members. There had been over expenditure on management in December. She asked what the final amount for the over expenditure was.
Lieutenant General S Schutte, SAPS Finance Chief, responded that over expenditure at the end of February was R14 million. R54 million had been allocated and R68 million was the amount spent at that date. The reason was as a result of more personnel and retirements and this was what SAPS had reported to National Treasury.
Ms Van Wyk noted that the amount that had been given was for the end of February, hence at the end of March the amount would increase. R14 million over expenditure was not a small amount. She stressed that the problem was with the attitude shown by SAPS as if R750 000 was a small amount.
Gen Cele gave an update on the police station which was robbed of firearms. Three of the seven robbers were shot dead execution style by their colleagues. SAPS was investigating whether the bullets came from the stolen guns. He went on to state that the attorneys of the wanted SAPS general had approached SAPS on Monday in order to hand him in but SAPS did not agree to this. The General went on to correct a statement in which he was misquoted by the media.
Programme 3: Detective Services
Lieutenant General Rayman Lalla, Divisional Commissioner: Detective Services, said the percentage of court-ready cases was in the final stages of being determined. The baseline for contact crime was 59% and it would increase to 60-65%. At the end of 2010/11 the determined figure would be the new baseline. The detection rate for trio crimes was 14% but the target would be increased to 18%. SAPS would be prioritizing detective training. The expenditure for crime investigation was R6 250 billion and it would increase to R6 808 billion. With regards to operational priorities, the two key issues identified were training and the individual performance of detectives. SAPS would be monitoring the performance of each one and it would enhance both controls and risk. They had defined the roles from the divisional commissioner right through to investigators. SAPS would localize failure to the point where it happened and this would enable dockets to be managed more efficiently. The monitoring of compliance provided for a dedicated detective capacity at cluster and provincial level which would monitor and oversee management. Templates were developed to guide, monitor and manage risks and compliance.
In order to ensure efficient management of crime scenes, a crime scene management manual was developed in consultation with prosecutors and investigators which complied with legal prescripts to ensure prosecution. The process was currently being rolled out to all police functionaries involved in the attendance of crime scenes.
Lieutenant General Anwa Dramat, Deputy National Commissioner and Hawks head, presented on the subprogram: Investigation. The percentage of court-ready cases for fraud and corruption by officials in the Justice, Crime Prevention, Security (JCPS) cluster was new hence there was no target but for the following year it would be increased by 3%. The baseline for serious commercial crime was 37% and the percentage for court-ready cases for serious commercial crime was a new indicator hence there was no baseline. In terms of operational capacity, it would be to capacitate the Priority Crime Management Centre to ensure a credible priority offences crime threat and risk assessment and to ensure project investigations that addressed serious organised crime. It was also to ensure investigations that addressed serious corruption including a focus on corruption within the Criminal Justice System (CJS), ensured investigations that addressed serious commercial crimes including a focus on fraud at municipalities and the capacitating of the new units according to the approved National Structure for physical and human resources. The new units would be the Anti Corruption Investigation Component, Financial or Asset Forfeiture Investigation Component.
Programme 4: Crime Intelligence
Gen Julius Phahlane, Divisional Commissioner: Criminal Record and Forensics Services, presented on the criminal record centre. A number of targets were set, within which reports and exhibits would be finalised. The targets would help in reducing backlogs in the department. In terms of improving Forensics services and fingerprints, crime scenes were important and the department sought to improve the collection of evidence at crime scenes In addition the department would also improve the procedures for the updating of records of offenders convicted of crime. They would also increase the turn-around time for generating reports and the processing of fingerprint evidence. The infrastructure would be expanded to cater for the decentralisation of services. Laboratories would be set up in previously disadvantaged areas such as rural areas. The technology capacity would be enhanced by the procurement of new technology and of expanding existing technology to deal with the expected increase in workload. There would be improved service delivery of individual employees by improving training and competency certification in accordance with national standards. There would also be growing Forensics awareness and the increase of hits when it came to the processing of Forensics evidence.
Major General Mark Hankel of Criminal Intelligence said that on 16 March a comprehensive briefing was provided which outlined the plans and functions of the unit whose purpose was to manage crime intelligence and to provide technical support. There were two subprograms under crime intelligence: 1. crime intelligence operations and 2. intelligence and information management. In terms of the expenditure estimate for the year 2010/11 they expected to spend R772.3 million which would increase to R838.3 million for the subprogram crime intelligence. For the subprogram intelligence and information management they expected to spend R1 175 billion for 2010/11 and R1 278 billion for 2011/12. Personnel payments were the largest component. Operational expenditures associated with operations were fuel and oil and travel and subsistence. Their operational priorities were to provide actionable intelligence on crime priorities to enable prosecutions, focus intelligence crimes on recovery of illegal firearms, enhance the capacity to improve the Security Standard through vetting and strengthen the management of Minimum Information Security Standards (MISS).
The Chairperson appreciated the presentation that had been given by SAPS. Not enough information was given on Visible Policing. The Department was commended for the great improvement in the area of the Forensics Department which was also dealing with backlogs.
Ms Molebatsi (ANC) asked why the detection rate for crimes that had been committed against children had been reduced. She asked what the situation was with regards to the storage of drugs.
Mr Ndlovu noted that there were no baselines but there were targets. He asked how SAPS determined targets if there were no baselines. He asked what the average case load per detective was. Further, how long did it take to do vetting and what were the challenges they faced? He asked whether they had a backlog and if so what were the numbers in the backlog.
Ms Van Wyk congratulated General Phahlane on the changes that he had brought to the Forensics Department since his appointment in 2010. She asked when figures for detectives would be ready and how had SAPS had arrived at 3%. She asked if there were any plans to improve branch commanders. She noted that the Committee had come across one branch manager who had been in that position for seven years and who was only then doing his first management course. She stressed that this was a reflection of lack of career pathing. A suggestion was put forward that human resources and career pathing were supposed to be married together. What was SAPS going to do for branch commanders in terms of management and capacity? She asked what the ideal figure for detectives were and if SAPS had such a number, how had it arrived at the number? She noted that conviction rates were not in the annual performance plan and asked why this was so.
Mr M Swathe (DA) asked how many detectives were supposed to be under a single mentor. He asked whether SAPS was going to change the allocation of work per detective and what would the mentor do. In terms of slide 129, he asked if the strengthening of the management of Minimum Information Security Standards was used in urban areas only or was it moving towards rural areas.
Mr George asked to what extend did delays on the part of SAPS contribute to overcrowding in police cells for awaiting trial detainees. He asked what SAPS was doing to ensure that cases were attended to as quickly as possible to reduce overcrowding. The strengthening of crime scene management was important. He asked what this meant. With regards to strengthening its work against serious commercial crime, he asked if the target of 40-50% that had been set was the best that SAPS could do and if there was no way of improving the target.
Mr Ndlovu asked what SAPS defined as ‘decentralisation’ with regards to Forensics services and what they meant when they said ‘from Pretoria to Durban’ and whether or not this was a shifting the goal posts.
The Chairperson noted that where branch commanders were effective, the whole team would be effective and where the branch commanders were ineffective, the whole team would be ineffective. She asked how SAPS was ensuring that they appointed effective branch commanders. She asked how SAPS was going to do Forensics awareness, when would they start and if they had the budget. What was the status of technology in the Forensics environment and what the status of the Marshal system was and where were the pieces of the dismantled system? She asked if SAPS was still using the GSPS and what were the results. She also asked if the new system had been validated, what the cost and output expectation of the new system was - compared to the manual system. She asked how many systems were in the Forensics Department and how effective were the systems. She asked who was responsible for the IT, CJS and the DNA database. How was the Forensics Department addressing the question of lost drugs, whether they were investigating anyone and if they were vetting people in order to address the problem? She also requested an update on the policy of purchase of vehicles for senior management.
Gen Cele responded to the question on decentralization, saying that the move from Pretoria to Durban was considered decentralisation and it would eventually end up in clusters. There were urban and rural clusters and the decentralisation would eventually end up in rural areas. He agreed that it would take some time to complete the move. In terms of the relationship between arrestees and awaiting trial detainees, there had been an uneven growth between SAPS and its sister components. SAPS had 245 000 wanted criminals who were not in correctional facilities, correctional facilities housed 160 000 inmates. The number of police was said to be increasing. Criminals were sometimes arrested in numbers. It was important for the clusters to grow evenly in terms of personnel so that the SAPS intake was equally matched. SAPS was said to be arresting a large number of people who were on parole.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that crime against children was a very touchy issue. Part of the process of dealing with children was complicated by the lack of better trained people within SAPS. The Child Justice Act came in after the baselines and projected targets had been drawn up and thus complicated the matter. SAPS had to review the manner in which they dealt with crimes committed by children.
Ms Van Wyk clarified the question that it was talking about crimes against children.
Lt Gen Lalla replied that they needed better equipped facilities and trained personnel and that a lot of the crimes were committed by children under the age of 18. Hence it was a new challenge that SAPS was facing.
Mr Ndlovu pointed out that the question related to crimes committed against children and not crimes committed by children.
The Chairperson noted that such crimes related to missing and murdered children.
Mr George clarified that Gen Lalla had said that most crimes committed against children were committed by other children.
Ms Van Wyk stressed that in order for SAPS to make such a statement they were supposed to have conducted some research. She asked what the rate was based on and what percentage of crimes was committed by children against children. Furthermore, it was not necessary to lower the rate.
The Chairperson commented that the Child Justice Act was not supposed to be a problem. The Stellenbosch police station had summarised the Act very well.
Ms Van Wyk stressed that they were talking about the detection rate and this was a priority of government. The answer that had been given by SAPS was “not answering the question that the Committee had raised”.
Gen Cele noted that the baseline was there in the presentation.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that the Child Justice Act was the correct Act to have in place. The tension was the systems they had within the police. SAPS finalised the cases but the systems did not capture this such as in the case of how they dealt with the new Child Justice Act. The lengthiness with which the Child Justice Act committed the police to looking for outside resolutions to deal with the issue, complicated the work of SAPS.
Ms Van Wyk noted that last year the detection rate was between 76-80%. She asked why the detection rate had been decreased. The target that had been set had not been achieved. She stressed that this was unacceptable.
Major General Chris De Kock, Head of Crime Research and Statistics, confirmed that research showed that most crimes committed against children were committed by children. If they referred to the target given by the National Commissioner then the target was 66-70% hence it was higher. The figures given by Ms Van Wyk were also correct - he could not give an explanation for that.
The Chairperson said that the baseline was 75.14% and the target was 76-80% which meant that for the other year they had achieved 75% hence it was made the baseline. The target was lower than the base line.
Lt Gen Lalla responded it was a very worrying concern. Prior to that, there was no Child Justice Act which was implemented in 2010. In addition SAPS systems were not designed to capture that because the law did not allow the processes to be finalised. The detection rate could not be captured on the system because they could not charge children.
The Chairperson asked why a target had been set if there was a problem.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that prior to the Child Justice Act, children were charged and it was reflected on the SAPS system. When the Act came into operation, SAPS had to be sensitive because of the prescripts of the law. There was a need to find alternative solutions so that they did not criminalise the children and bring them back into the criminal justice system.
Ms Van Wyk said that the figures given by Dr De Kock were wrong. Even if what had been said was true, she still did not agree with him. SAPS was supposed to prove that the majority of the crimes committed against children were committed by children. She asked how difficult was it to adapt the system and why had SAPS brought the detection rate target down because there were still crimes that were committed by adults against children. She noted that the Annual Report was silent about the Family and Child Protection Unit which was a priority.
The Chairperson asked if SAPS was supposed to be having challenges.
Lt Gen Molefe responded that he could not talk to the system challenges but there were no legal problems
The Chairperson said that SAPS knew well beforehand that the system would be effected on 1 April 2010 and they knew how it was going to affect them. In addition, she did not understand why SAPS had to reduce their targets in an area which was a priority.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that he would try to correct and rectify the system. He explained that they did not have a baseline for court-ready cases, it was a new indicator in 2010/11 and there was no precedents in the past in dealing with this, hence there were no baselines and the figure would be increased annually from now on. With regards to training, one of the challenges when they tried to deal with the work load and resources for detectives, was that they had to look at the system, the crime locations, where the courts were situated and their relationship with prosecutors. In order to enhance the detection rate and the court-ready cases, they had to put in place mechanisms so that dockets were finalised. The limitations were training and the broader issue was one of management of the processes at station and provincial level. SAPS had decided to research the whole issue of workload and in doing so, they would enhance the process of the individual investigator through training. They were hoping to finalise this in three to four months’ time. The ideal figure for the detection rate would be found in due course. In relation to the conviction rate, there were at times external factors such as how witnesses conducted themselves in court, and hence they needed to rely more on tangible evidence. SAPS could not control some issues such as contradictory statements, hence they were trying to focus more on the scientific recovery of evidence. A lot of things had to be in place to ensure that SAPS ensured convictions. He acknowledged the fact that there were some limitations when it came to branch commanders but processes had been put in place such as the training of branch commanders.
Ms Van Wyk clarified that the question was what was the ideal figure for the number of detectives and how had they arrived at the figure. In addition, she said that the answer on convictions was not acceptable. There was a difference between a court-ready case and a court-ready case that led to a conviction and hence the quality as well as the quantity of the detective work had to be measured.
Mr George stressed that the conviction rate was very low. At times, magistrates and judges complained that the police bungled the cases. Hence there was a need to know the conviction rate.
Mr Ndlovu asked what the average case docket per detective was.
Gen Cele responded to the question on the conviction rate by saying he agreed it was a difficult thing for SAPS to work on the issue. The issue was about the quality of the court-ready documents. He added that there was a big gap when it came to witnesses and it was one area that the JCPS needed to work on.
Ms Van Wyk said that the fact of the matter was that detectives also gave evidence in court so their role did not stop when the docket was ready. That was why the Committee was pleading for closer cooperation between the detectives and the prosecutors. There were also detectives who did not follow up on cases. She gave an example of how she made an appointment with a detective since she was a witness to a hit and run and the detective had not yet contacted her. There were more important things to measure SAPS against. One of SAPS priorities was to manage crime perception in order to re-strengthen the trust of the people in the police. She stressed that the successes had to be highlighted
Gen Phahlane thanked the Members and the National Commissioner for their guidance and direction in ensuring they delivered on their commitments. On the matter of drug storage, they periodically destroyed drugs on a quarterly basis. In addition, a number of cases were being followed up on so that they could finalise investigations. Further, one police member had been dismissed. SAPS had procured temporary storage facilities which were containers so that they could control the drugs properly. They were also building a drug storage facility in Pretoria which would address some of the security system concerns. Measures had been taken so that drugs that were delivered were not kept in the reception area. They also sanctioned a lifestyle audit of people who worked in the chemistry labs and those who came in close contact with drugs. They were not where they wanted to be on this but there was some work that they were doing.
The Chairperson asked what a lifestyle audit was.
Gen Phahlane responded that they would assess the way people lived their lives and how they had acquired what they had.
The Chairperson asked how the Forensics Department ensured that their workers did not inhale drugs or get addicted.
Colonel Shezi, Quality Manager on Environment, SAPS, responded that there were processes in place to determine the baseline assessment of all individuals who were in the environment. When they recruited people they would first establish what the status was of the person. The Department also had a roll out plan which would enable them to trace back the addiction.
Gen Phahlane said that, on the matter of security, there was a delay with the procurement of CCTV cameras and biometrics which were processed through State Information Technology Agency (SITA). On the directive of the National Commissioner, they were withdrawing this from SITA.
The Chairperson complained that the absence of quarterly targets in the Annual Performance Plan made it difficult for the Committee to monitor because what had been said had been said for a very long time such as the issue of cameras.
Ms Van Wyk stressed that there was a serious problem with regards to where evidence was kept. She asked if the plan intended to address the issue.
Gen Phahlane responded that there was a long term plan that would address this but currently they were concerned with the way evidence was kept such as rape kits. The Department was trying to enhance the system so that there would not be any delays. With regards to the CCTV, the Department had embarked on a process to maintain what they had but they did not want to continue with what they had because everyone knew where the cameras were. There was a need to replace them and put them in strategic places. In response to the matter of strengthening crime scene and crime scene management, he gave an example and added that the expert that would be needed was supposed to be located at cluster level hence they would put capacity in each and every province and so able to respond. The Department had to employ and train more experts so that they were closely located to where the crime had been committed. Vehicles had been procured so that crime scene experts could go in different directions.
The Chairperson asked if SAPS had the figures for the number of people who were going to be trained as crime scene experts.
Gen Phahlane responded that they would employ 700 people, 750 people and thereafter 800 people.
The Chairperson asked if there were going to be a yearly 50-people growth.
Gen Phahlane said that they would employ 700 in one year, 750 the next year and then 800. This was also supposed to be linked to the issue of awareness. In terms of Forensics awareness, the Forensics Department had an issue with reports not being collected more quickly by stations. Hence the Department would have designated members who would deliver reports so that they would not take too long sitting at the laboratories. The reports were part of internal and external awareness plans.
The Chairperson asked SAPS if they were going to do the recruitment and who were they going to recruit.
Gen Phahlane responded that they were going to recruit science graduates and also people who had math and science and who were not graduates.
The Chairperson stressed that SAPS was supposed to ensure that people in rural areas with science were also recruited into the laboratories.
Gen Cele responded that awareness was supposed to be part of it.
Gen Phahlane said that the Department was still using the automatic Genetic Sample Processing System (GSPS). A study had been sanctioned to determine how efficient the machine was. It was an expensive instrument and maintenance was very high. In addition he did not think that there would be another GSPS machine and once the current machine reached its peak, it had to be decommissioned. In terms of the success rates, in 2008 it was 33%, 2009 it was 45.8% and in 2010 the success rate was 48.2%. The machine was used together with manual processes. The manual system was said to be working.
The Chairperson said SAPS needed to compare the cost and output of the GSPS system with that of the manual system and determine if they were getting value for money.
Ms Van Wyk noted that 452.9% had been spent on consultants and professionals. She asked what the consultants and professionals were for and what result was achieved.
Gen Phahlane said he was not aware of the figure but would respond in writing and also about the GSPS comparative analysis. The Department had put in place certain measures in order to avoid repeat such as an expert forum which needed to entertain the presentation on the research that had been done since no procurement could be made on behalf of the labs without any validation having been done. There was only one piloted project which was in Pretoria and the results would be made available in June. The results of the study that had been conducted on the Marshal system had not yet been concluded because the Department wanted to know where the machine ended up.
The Chairperson stressed that the question on the Marshal system had been raised for a very long time and it seemed as if the Department was not able to respond. She asked who had ordered the dismantling of the system. Also who was the project manager for the reference or crime index lanes.
Gen Phahlane responded that it was part of the streamlining of functions which was taking place. The person responsible for the reference index lanes had been moved so she could focus on quality management since the person had been responsible for a number of things.
The Chairperson asked if SAPS could say that they had the best system which was sustainable and could produce results for the country.
Colonel Shezi responded that the system that had been implemented was currently undergoing a validation exercise and they would be able to determine the efficiency rate but the Department would not have an answer until June 2011.
The Chairperson asked what it meant in terms of money or spending.
Colonel Shezi responded that a national tender had been advertised and should that system work the Department would be able to procure. They could only procure on condition that the system satisfied all the requirements in their system and should it fail, then they would not continue with the entire project.
Gen Phathlane responded that there a number of systems such as the Automated Fingerprint Identification System (AFIS), NPIS and many more.
The Chairperson stressed that this question should be responded to in writing because the Committee was not able to grasp the names and they were supposed to explain how effective they were. She asked who was responsible for the IT system and if it was one person.
Gen Phahlane responded that it remained the responsibility of the division on technology management.
The Chairperson asked who was responsible for IT in the Forensics Department.
Gen Phahlane responded that there were two people from General Tshabalala who had been designated to support the Department. The DNA database was the responsibility of Colonel Joe Smith and he was in charge of the CJS as divisional commissioner, a position he guarded personally.
The Chairperson was concerned about the expenditure on kits and other items that were bought and not utilised properly. She asked how much money had been spent on kits.
Gen Phahlane responded that he could not give the amount. He stressed it was a situation that he had inherited but there were measures to curb this. Auditing and costing had been done so as to take steps against people who were involved.
The Chairperson stressed that people would just “purchase for the sake of empowering other people”.
Mr Swathe pointed out that the question on the ratio of mentors had not been responded to.
Lt Gen Lalla replied that in most stations in was 2:1 but in some stations it was 3:1 but the Department was trying to keep it as limited as possible.
Ms Van Wyk asked what the ideal number of dockets per detective was.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that currently the capacity of detective services was 26 000 and as at December 2010 there were about 1.2 million dockets and on average there would between 45-50 dockets per person. The average would however vary.
Ms Van Wyk noted that in the criminal justice revamp a figure had been given. She asked if they were working with that figure or it if they had discarded the figure.
Lt Gen Lalla responded that the figure was being worked with.
Gen Cele stressed that there were serious discussion on the issue of detectives since it had been suggested that one-third of the service should be detectives.
Ms Van Wyk commented that there were some good things and some positive plans by SAPS that came out of the presentations. However, the Annual Performance Plan was not reflecting what the Committee had heard in the previous meetings.
Gen Cele said that everything SAPS did was to ensure that South Africans felt safe. They would achieve this with the help of their sister components. SAPS took note of issues raised by the Committee which they would try and implement such as visiting stations and the revisiting of the strategic plan. He requested that SAPS engage with the Committee without any form of intimidation. Some of the issues that had been raised by the Committee had been discussed by the Department. A forum for the interpretation of documents was needed. SAPS would re-look at the Treasury guidance document.
The Chairperson thanked the Department for appearing before the Committee. She had told a member of the public that she would be asking questions on behalf of members of the public. She stressed that the Committee was representing members of the public. The Chairperson was supposed to respond and to account for anything that she did and the same principle was applicable to SAPS which was expected to account to the Committee and Parliament on anything and everything it did. The Committee was not able to ask all the questions they wanted and at the same SAPS was not able to answer all the questions hence they should respond in writing to some of the questions. SAPS was considered to be an apex Department and things had to be done to reflect the fact that the Department was a priority Department.
A number of issues had been raised such as the 4 to 7% target which had been reduced from 7 to 10%. The target would not be accepted by the Committee without any concrete evidence. There was an expectation to purify sexual indicators into those that were dependant on police action such as prostitution and those that were not. An indicator for railway police was supposed to be inserted into the Annual Performance Plan. The Committee had agreed that a number of questions be responded to in writing such as the completion of the Durban North police station, the police station in the forest, the list of names of police stations which were supposed to receive services and the expenditure of the management programme.
There was a need for the Committee to meet with SAPS to discuss issues that related to the terrestrial trunked radio (TETRA) network. The Committee would consider writing to the Special Investigating Unit to invite it to brief the Committee on the progress made in the investigation announced by the President. The Committee would also be interested to know in terms of technology if the Department was ready to implement the fingerprint aspect of the Criminal Law Forensics Procedures Amendment Bill. The Department was made aware that after each visit with SAPS, a Committee Report was compiled with recommendations and the reports were tabled in Parliament. She highlighted that it seemed as if the Department was not receiving or reading these reports. She urged the Department to receive these reports and read them so that they could attend to the recommendations raised.
The Committee formally accepted the Annual Performance Plan and other documents sent to supplement it. The Department was requested to compile one document which was informed by all the other documents sent to the Committee. The Department was requested to submit the documents through the Minister by 29 April. The management could assist the police in fighting crime better. The Department would be called to discuss the festive season operation “Operation Duty Calls” which she said was a success story.
The meeting was adjourned.
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