South African Police Service Training Programmes, adoption of Committee reports & minutes

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13 September 2010
Chairperson: Ms L Chikunga (ANC)
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Meeting Summary

The Chairperson commented briefly on statistics on crime, saying that more attention should be paid to reducing drunken driving. She then highlighted pertinent issues discovered during the Committee’s visit to training institutions at Chatsworth and Phillipi. Phillipi was severely criticised by all Members, who noted that students were signing the registers, but not attending classes, that the principal had no idea of the vision or mission of his institution, that the buildings were filthy and decrepit, which the officers put down to “Mother Nature”, and that there was no proper lecturer/student relationship.

Members of the South African Police Services (SAPS) answered the Committee’s concerns about the crime rates, pointed out that drug- related crimes were on the rise, with farms often being used as fronts, but that the SAPS knew it still had far to go to address these issues. The requirement for driving licences for all new applicants had been dropped and health and fitness was a major priority.
SAPS then addressed the training strategy. The strategic objectives were to enhance Education, Training and Development (ETD) practice and culture of learning, to establish ETD centres of excellence that promoted innovative research, development and learning practices, and ensuring a return on human investment. The period of learnerships had been increased to 24 months. The phases and subjects taught were described, and the key elements of training strategy were set out. Not all academies had sufficient facilities, including gyms and rifle ranges.  827 375 SAPS members were trained since 2004, under licensed training. The Phillipi institution had been visited by SAPS and its commander had been placed under mentorship, which should address some of the concerns there. 

Members asked a number of follow-up questions on Phillipi, including whether students were assisting in keeping it clean, and doubted whether this college could have corrected all the inadequacies that the Committee had seen even if the visit by SAPS had been announced, pointing out that the commander could not even cope with the basics and was set up for failure by being placed in charge of the institution when he could not cope. Members generally welcomed the change of policy around the driving licences and asked what provisions were in place to ensure that the recruits became experienced drivers. Members asked about the fitness drive and whether contracts were in place with gyms. They asked if members passed their training, what the pass mark for the examinations was, where the papers were set and moderated, what the involvement of SAPS was with the Department of Education. Members noted that some recruits had criminal records and asked how they had got through the screening process. Members were worried that basic procedures were not being adhered to at police stations, and highlighted the need for follow-up training, asking what would happen to those who still did not succeed, and if this did not illustrate deficiencies in the current systems. They questioned the training of detectives. Many police officers at Parliament were criticised as not attending to their duties and sleeping while on night-duty. SAPS was asked how it evaluated police stations, noted that some were not sufficient for training purposes. Members urged SAPS to join the Committee when it undertook its oversight visits. They stressed the need for integration between theoretical and practical training, and indemnity of students during training.

Meeting report

Chairperson’s opening remarks
The Chairperson apologised for postponing the meeting the previous week. She stated that Members had to attend a meeting on the release of crime statistics. She said that the Committee welcomed the crime statistics that had been released. The number of murders had decreased, which was welcomed, and this had contributed to savings of thousands of lives. However, she questioned why there was an increase in drunken driving, and said that it needed to be addressed. If there could be increased awareness on drunken driving, then this too would effectively decrease deaths from murder on the roads.

The Chairperson said that South African Police Services (SAPS) had been called before the Committee in this meeting to deal with the training of SAPS members. The Committee had visited two SAPS training institutes, at Chatsworth and Phillipi Colleges. She noted that the oversight visit had shown that students at the Phillipi College signed attendance registers, but the students never attended any classes. The needs for the basic curriculum were not being reflected. The negative result reflected on the discipline of the police. By contrast, however, Chatsworth was a total opposite of Phillipi.  The teachers at Chatsworth were willing to teach, and the institution was clean.

Both the colleges, Chatsworth and Phillipi, had visions but the visions could not be implemented. The principal at Phillipi did not know the vision or the mission of the College. She believed that if the SAPS could address issues at that first level, then the SAPS could get it right everywhere else. Another issue was that apparently the curriculum was being reviewed, yet the tutors were not part of the curriculum change. This was of concern, since the implementers of changes ought to be involved, in order to iron out all the weaknesses of the previous curriculum. The issues she had raised needed to be clarified.

The Chairperson also said that the Committee had found that Liesbeck barracks was in poor shape, both from the point of view of cleanliness and the structure of the building. There were broken floors, holes in the ceiling, and the bathrooms were extremely dirty, with one toilet cubicle even having the remains of a dead bat. She stressed that these issues should not need to be pointed out by the Portfolio Committee instead of being found by the designated Departmental unit.

The Chairperson then asked the SAPS delegation to speak to the training of police officer.

SAPS National Commissioner’s introductory remarks
General Bheki Cele, National Commissioner, South African Police Services, pointed out that at no stage did the SAPS want to give the impression that it had fully succeeded in what it wanted to achieve. It was aware that it still had a long way to go. He stated, in respect of the statistics mentioned earlier, that 16 000 people had lost their lives and thus the SAPS could not claim success. He went on to discuss the issue of drug related crimes and statistics. He pointed out that police investigations were uncovering more and more drug related crimes. In the previous financial year the SAPS had even come across new factories in the Republic, as opposed to simply finding the final product, as had been the case in the past. SAPS had found farms that were used as fronts for drugs, most being in Gauteng and KwaZulu Natal (KZN), but the worst was recently found in the Eastern Cape, where SAPS had found drugs worth R1.2 billion loaded in containers and ready to be shipped across South Africa.

In connection with the oversight visit, General Cele thanked the Committee for its support. He said that SAPS had visited Phillipi. The conditions did not convey a grand entrance in the organisation, especially in light of the fact that it was an entry point. He noted, in connection with the comments on the curriculum, that he had been a teacher in the past, and he had never been involved in consultations prior to bringing about any new curriculum. All that the SAPS needed to do was to train teachers and tutors on how to implement the new curriculum. However, the issue that had been raised by the Chairperson, regarding involvement of teachers and implementers, would be looked at by the SAPS.

General Cele commented on the remarks about the vision, saying that this was not a matter for the colleges to decide as it required a national approach.

General Cele highlighted that a new strategy of recruitment was to be implemented. Recruitment would be done at police station levels. Stations would be given their quotas on the number of people they needed to recruit. SAPS intended to relax the requirement for a drivers’ licence as a prerequisite for recruitment into the SAPS, as it had found that this was a barrier to recruiting good people. After the recruits finished their training they would have a drivers licence. The community would be involved in the recruitment of new SAPS members. In general, recruits would be placed at the police stations in their own areas. They would be at the stations for ten months, then would be sent back to the college for a further two months, for assessment, with reports coming from police stations where they had been stationed. This new assessment method would hopefully result in the SAPS having better recruits.

SAPS would also look into the situation of how recruits would join the SAPS as full members. During their two-year training, the recruits were not yet considered as members of the SAPS. This meant that at the end of the training, they were under no obligations, and as a result SAPS found that it had been losing many of the people trained.

General Cele stressed that there were shortcomings in the running of the institutions. One problem was the shortage of shooting ranges. Shooting ranges were expensive, so recruits were faced with the task of going to other shooting ranges, which could be up to 60 km away. He stated that this placed them in danger. Another issue on which SAPS were becoming more serious was that of physical fitness. He quipped that the people in Pretoria did not have large stomachs. He added that in the past, SAPS had insisted that the police officers should wear the same size uniform for at least seven years, and would be relieved of their duties if they could no longer fit into that uniform. SAPS was thinking of reintroducing this rule.

SAPS Education Training and Development (ETD) Strategy briefing
Major General LJ Mothiba, Divisional Commissioner: Human Resources Development, South African Police Services, went on to present the ETD strategy. He outlined the various roles that the Divisional Commissioner played within the SAPS, such as being a skills development facilitator and forming part of the human resources value chain. He stated that the Divisional Commissioners formed part of the senior management. Various regulatory frameworks governed the Divisional Commissioners, such as the Skills Development Act, SAPS Act, South African Qualifications Authority (SAQA) Act and the Employment Equity Act. The SAPS vision aimed to ensure quality education, training and development (ETD) in support of creating and maintaining a safe and secure environment for all people in South Africa. The mission included the auditing of skills in the SAPS, determining of ETD needs in the SAPS, and setting and assuring ETD quality standards. These were also built on values such as integrity, quality, commitment, and teamwork.

Maj Gen Mothiba highlighted the training priorities that had been determined. The first phase, commencing in 2004, had been concerned with “storming and norming” to target the market and set the product range. The second phase commenced in 2006, and involved customer care and people-relations practices. However, it had been necessary to change course in 2007 as a result of difficulties. The third phase was the renewal phase.

Maj Gen Mothiba went on to present on the future of policing, by enabling a learning organisation. He pointed out that there were four key elements: ETD partnerships, professional ETD partnerships, ETD knowledge based on delivery, and value driven teams. He also presented on the strategic objectives. These included establishing next-generation police officers through enhanced ETD practice and culture of learning, establishing ETD centres of excellence that promoted innovative research, development and learning practices, thus positioning themselves as leaders in specific learning disciplines for policing, and ensuring the return on investment in human capital through the provisioning of appropriate and responsive ETD solutions.

Maj Gen Mothiba went on to present on the issue of learnerships. He stated that the ETD learnerships were launched and implemented in SAPS during 2004. The qualification had been registered with SAQA, and at this stage the training took 12 months. The academies’ key resources were tabled, indicating  which academies had shooting ranges, swimming pools and gymnasium facilities. 1 754 members had attended the learnerships.

A total number of 827 375 members had been trained since 2004. SAPS had institutionalised the training of assessors and moderators under a licensing model, to ensure adequate trained personnel. He stated that there was one training provisioning plan for the SAPS, which included optimal utilisation of resources. He also stated that the SAPS had visited the Phillipi training institute and had discussed the report of the Parliamentary Committee. He stated that the commander at Phillipi was being placed under the mentorship of Major General Nyalungu. He noted that Phillipi belonged to the Provincial Government of Western Cape. A plan of action had been developed and he hoped that it would help turn around Phillipi institution.

He went on to discuss the implementation of basic training learning programme. The structure of the programme would now stretch over 24 months, in three phases. The first phase would last for six months, and his foundational phase would mainly focus on the acquiring of knowledge and skills. The second phase involved the practical application of knowledge and skills, and workplace exposure at stations. The third phase would be 12 months long, and it would take the form of field based training.

He further elaborated on the modules’ content. Phase 1 would focus on the orientation to SAPS and this involved professional conduct, employee health and wellness and computer literacy. In the second part of this phase, students would learn about the application of law by police officers, and would receive instruction in subjects such as common law, law of evidence, criminal law and criminal procedure. Recruits would also be taught on street survival, and there were modules on physical fitness and first aid. Phase 2 was the practical phase, which involved crime investigation modules such as the management of exhibits, statement taking, docket administration, taking of fingerprints and tracing techniques. Further street survival would also be taught, including the use of firearms, use of force and tactical combat. These learnership programmes would be aligned to qualifications and to institutions.

Mr M George (COPE) welcomed the change on the policy around drivers’ licences. He asked whether the SAPS were going to include driving as part of the training and, if so, how long the recruits were going to be allowed to drive after they had finished training, for it was important for them to gain experience.

Mr George asked who was responsible for making sure that the property at Phillipi was clean. This building apparently belonged to the Provincial Government.

General Cele said that the occupant of the place was responsible for maintaining the cleanliness of it. However, the fixing of or maintenance on the building would be done by the Department of Public Works.

Ms M Dube (ANC) also raised the issue on who was supposed to maintain the Phillipi building. She wondered if SAPS had a chance of buying the building since SAPS was currently renting this building.
Mr M Swathe (DA) asked whether SAPS had signed a contract with Virgin Active. He also raised this issue with regard to the shooting ranges. He also asked how many trainees the SAPS was losing.

General Cele responded that there had been discussion between the SAPS and Virgin Active Gym, and they were close to concluding a deal, although SAPS was also in discussion with other gym houses. He added that many members of the SAPS were joining gyms.

Ms M Dube (ANC) asked whether there were any students who failed to pass the training. She further asked whether the SAPS had begun to train detectives and, if so, how long it would take to train them.

Ms M Molebatsi (ANC) highlighted the fact that having a gymnasium and using a gymnasium properly were two different things, and this was seen at Phillipi. She went on to ask whether there was any other way of checking the progress of students, other than from the written reports from the commanders.

General Cele acknowledged that it was tough for people to get themselves to the gym. He said that the SAPS needed to put in place some mechanism whereby SAPS could get a monthly print out of which officers who had visited the gym. This would especially be necessary if SAPS contracted with Virgin Active.

Mr G Lekgetho (ANC) also welcomed the relaxation of drivers’ licence requirements. He stated that it would help the issue if it were stressed that it was necessary to have a drivers’ licence if a person wanted to drive.

Mr Lekgetho asked about the involvement of the SAPS with the Department of Education.

General Nobubele Mbekela, Head of ETD, South African Police Services, responded that the SAPS had entered into a partnership, leading to the development of a qualification with the Department of Education called the National Certification Vocational Safety in Society. Learners would be taught, from a lower level, on the policing curriculum, at Further Education and Training (FET) colleges. She stated that driving had to be part of the curriculum. She stressed that all this had been done because matric served very little purpose, especially when it came to the subject of law.

Rev K Meshoe (ACDP) pointed out that there were people at Phillipi who had criminal records. He asked how such people could get through the screening process. He asked whether this could be the reason why there was so much corruption in the SAPS. It had been highlighted during the discussion that the Commander at Phillipi had been receiving mentoring, and that this should achieve a turnaround on what was happening currently. He asked whether there was a deadline for this.

General Cele responded that regrettably it had been found that not only students at Phillipi had criminal records, but also many other students at different training institutes. The SAPS vetting system was slow, and therefore SAPS intended to find a way in which the fingerprints of all the students who applied to join the SAPS would be checked. He added that one student had been involved with cash heist gangs while he was attending a SAPS training institute.

Rev Meshoe also raised the issue about the partnering of police in different areas within the same province. He raised this because of reports that there had apparently been police from South Johannesburg arrested by police in Hillbrow, when the South Johannesburg police had been pursuing criminals who had drugs.

Ms D Kohler–Barnard (DA) asked what would happen if a student failed to get a driver’s licence within the two years of the programme

Ms Kohler-Barnard wanted clarity on the issue of police being required to be able to wear the same size uniform. She was under the impression that the regulations on overweight officers had been done away with, because of the demands by the unions. She asked whether the SAPS would inform the unions on its intended change of policy around the uniforms. She added that there had been no references made in the presentation to the training of heads of stations, or members of the Community Policing Forum (CPF).

Maj Gen Mothiba responded that the National Commissioner was in charge of the SAPS, and not the unions.

Mr G Schneemann (ANC) asked when the new training period would be implemented.

Mr Schneemann noted that when the Committee visited police stations, the basic procedures were not adhered to. He asked how the SAPS intended to catch up with thousands of officers who had only received crash courses and thus were not well trained. He pointed out that senior personnel at training institutions could not implement what they were expected to implement, and had careless attitudes, then students could not be expected to achieve anything. The report by SAPS did not state what it had seen at Phillipi. If it had been up to him, Mr Schneemann would have closed Phillipi College. He highlighted the fact that the senior personnel at Phillipi had told the Committee, when it visited, that the institution was clean but was too embarrassed to say anything when the Committee saw the bathrooms. He wondered if the people who were providing the training were the correct people. He also raised an issue about police officers at Parliament, saying that their attitude was disgraceful and those on duty at night could be found sleeping. He stressed that this made him wonder where the police had received their training.

Ms A Van Wyk (ANC) stated that the presentation was good in that it showed the way forward. However, it failed to show what the situation had been in the past. She asked whether the trainers and the curriculum were evaluated. She also pointed out that statement-taking in the SAPS was a huge problem. There was a huge number of detectives who had not done any detective training. For these reasons, there was a need to evaluate the effectiveness of what the SAPS had been training. She was also interested in the issue of retraining. She highlighted that what the Committee had found during its most recent visit was just the same as what it had found during a visit three years previously. When the Committee asked why there was litter on the floor, the answer was that “Mother Nature” was responsible. Even station commanders acknowledged that people who had been trained at Phillipi were a big problem. For this reason there was clearly a need for retraining. She also wanted clarity on the allegation that some investigators were apparently told to watch Crime Scene Investigation to get knowledge.

Gen Cele acknowledged that statement taking within the SAPS was a huge problem but SAPS was trying to address this. It had advertised for the recruitment of about 300 law-qualified people to help the SAPS in skills in taking statements and developing cases. This would change the quality.

The Chairperson asked why the time frame for training had been changed from six months to one year, and what informed this decision. She raised the point that the theoretical aspects and the practical aspects were not integrated. It seemed that the SAPS was using trainees to address service needs. She stated that the curriculum should be reviewed, so that any mistakes that were previously in it were ironed out. She also stated that people who had finished training should know the whole of the Police Act.

She went on to ask how the SAPS evaluated police stations, to assess whether they were suitable for training. She highlighted the fact that there were no police cells in Mayflower. She stressed that one of the characteristics of adult learners was that adults chose what they wanted to learn. She stated that the curriculum should be richer at the basic level, rather than at the postgraduate level.

Ms Kohler-Barnard asked whether standard examinations were written nationwide, and what percentage was considered to be a pass.

Maj Gen Mothiba responded that there was one standard national examination paper, which was set at the national offices, and then couriered to centres for examination purposes. He stated that the papers would only be opened on the day of the examination.

Maj Gen V A Nyalungu, Section Head: Management and Leadership, SAPS, stated that he did not have the actual figures with him, but the pass rate was around 95% in all the institutions.

Ms Kohler-Barnard pointed out that she did not want the pass rate, but she wanted to know what percentage was considered to be a pass.

General Cele did not want to be accused of philosophising, yet felt that some of the questions asked encompassed philosophical issues. He said that it was true that some people would join the SAPS if they had found nothing else to do, and to that extent SAPS was sometimes considered to be a “zama zama” organisation where people would come to try their luck after everything else had failed. To this extent, SAPS would not always get the cream, and often received the lower ends of society. In the past, SAPS had placed more emphasis on quantity rather than on quality, and people had been “thrown” into the SAPS. He likened what SAPS was now doing to trying to fix an aeroplane while it was in flight. This gave rise to many problems. There was also a need to address perceptions. He had addressed high school pupils in Mpumalanga, stressing that a career choice for those with maths and science at matric lay in the SAPS. The pupils could not conceive how someone with mathematics and science would join the SAPS. It would take time for SAPS to move from quantity to quality. However, it had to start somewhere, and it would not achieve perfection at the start.

Gen Cele acknowledged that the SAPS had to start from somewhere and starting could not be perfect. SAPS would be easing the training of reservists, due to their age, because most of the criminals were young. SAPS would try to implement new ideas that had been raised by the Committee. He agreed that people who had finished training needed to be placed under the command of other police officers, instead of just “throwing” them at certain police stations. The points that the Committee had raised would help when it came to assessments. Instead of the SAPS going to police stations for assessments, it would rather approach the individual police officer who was in charge of the student. He noted that the movie “Training Day” depicted a new police officer who was placed under the watch of an experienced police officer, but the latter taught him extortion and corruption. SAPS was intent on avoiding such situations, which was why it intended to assess all students, and why it needed to take students back to those stations where they were likely to get better instruction and would be retained.

Gen Cele noted that the number of students who had dropped out was not large. However, there were concerns about a student who had been hurt at a gymnasium, because students were not contracted as yet to SAPS, and this student had to return home. Students should be receiving benefits from and be protected by SAPS.

Gen Cele addressed the concerns of the Committee about non-performance by the police, and said that SAPS’s first effort, when these cases were pointed out, was to try to train the police officer again. If a person did not improve after retraining, and was unable to do his or her duties, then he or she could be relieved of their duties. Gen Cele said that Kwa Mhashu was one of the best police stations in the country, despite the fact that the surrounding community had held the record of being the murder capital of the country for the last three years. However, the station commander, when asked a question, had requested that the answer be given by the clerk. That commander had needed to be removed. He was not sure whether in all cases, retraining would be adequate enough.

Gen Cele noted that in relation to recruitment and promotions, there were things that the SAPS needed to change, and the budget spoke to that. About half of the police staff were detectives. He stated that the SAPS was working on progression of packages, rather than promotions. Police seemed to like both their rank and package, but were probably willing to sacrifice their rank for their package. SAPS was working on a much bigger budget to accommodate packages.

Maj Gen Mothiba answered the questions around the driving licences and training. If a student was found to be competent enough to drive, after 24 months of training, he or she would be given access to a car. He stated that the backlog of personnel without drivers licences was at about 3 000. He stated that this issue would be finalised by March 2012. He stated that it was impractical for a student not to get a driver’s licence at the end of the training period.

The Chairperson responded that it was still possible for someone not to get a driver’s licence after the training period.

Maj Gen Mothiba said there had been no failures in basic training, and SAPS could provide the figures. He stated that the training program of detectives had improved tremendously. The London Metropolitan Police had, in 2008, been invited to look at the SAPS’s detective programme, and had acknowledged that in some respects it was better than that of London.  

Brigadier L Gossman, Section Head: Research and Development, SAPS, stated that when the training programme was reviewed, the programme was informed by various reports. SAPS had looked into how to change the model, methodology of the training, content, and integration of all phases.

Maj Gen Nyalungu pointed out, in regard to questions and comments on Phillipi, that he had personally visited the Phillipi institution and had done an inspection. He had drafted a plan to address the issues he raised, and this had to be executed by the end of October. He stated that it was the duty of the commander to ensure that the environment was clean. Students, instead of loitering, should be assisting in the cleaning up of the institutions. He highlighted that the commander at Phillipi had not yet attended the middle management course.

The Chairperson asked how the SAPS appointed a person to be a commander, especially if that person had not attended middle management course.

Mr George asked when last the SAPS had visited Phillipi, before SAPS had received a report from the Committee.

Ms Van Wyk stressed that the previous senior management at Phillipi had also not done anything. Once, the Committee was refused entry into the college and had to phone a Commissioner to instruct the college commander to let the Committee in. People should not be senior managers in name only, and should not sit in ivory towers.

Ms Kohler-Barnard stated that this issue illustrated the crux of the problems in SAPS; namely that commanders were in place who were not qualified to run stations. She asked who was responsible for promoting people to positions where they were required to run the institutions effectively, because the appointment of incompetent commanders set up both the commander and the station for failure.

The Chairperson pointed out that there were only ten training colleges. She did not understand why it was difficult to visit the colleges.

Maj Gen Nyalungu pointed out that every time he had paid a visit to the colleges, they had been informed of this in advance. That could be the reason why he sometimes found the colleges to be clean.

He clarified that it was not a requirement for the commander at Phillipi to complete a middle management course when he was appointed. However, he would not attempt to defend the commander. Some of the issues raised in Phillipi had occurred as a result of negligence.

The Chairperson stated that she wished a SAPS delegation would join the Committee when the Committee conducted its visits, whether these were announced or unannounced. The Committee could not notice any changes that had been effected to try and impress the Committee, neither in attitude nor the way the police officers worked. She noted how the police acted when the Committee had visited Chatsworth station in Durban. She pointed out that the Committee’s report was premised on what the Committee Members saw, and not what they heard.

The Chairperson pointed out that the comment on the curriculum had not addressed the question of the timetable and the attendance register.

Mr Schneemann stated that what was needed was not a lesson on how to clean things, but a lesson on discipline. He stated that if people could not get the basics right, then they could not get the bigger issues right. Matters at the Phillipi college were so bad that, even if the SAPS had done an announced visit, the issues could not have been addressed in a short period.

The Chairperson stated that there seemed to be no clear career path, since lecturers would befriend students. She asked how this happened.

General Cele responded that these were societal issues. The situation at the colleges was more akin to peers teaching peers. Although he acknowledged that there was a need to fix the SAPS structure, he did not necessarily agree with the view that a person with a degree should become a constable.

General Cele commented on the issues raised around the police in Parliament. He agreed that SAPS needed to work on the discipline of its officers, all of whom had equal responsibilities. There was a difference between a force and a service. People in a service seemed to have poorer discipline.  He agreed that some of the officers would probably sleep while they were on duty, and although he could not justify this behaviour, he pointed out that in many cases they were abused by their superiors, who would, for instance, send them out on errands for the superiors. He stressed that he would not take offence at all if the Committee were to point out to him whatever it had found that was not acceptable.

The Chairperson asked how the SAPS planned to evaluate the curriculum.

Gen Mbekela stated that there were two levels in terms of the curriculum. She pointed out that the SAPS had been conducting studies. There was also monitoring and evaluation at the institutional level. Quality assurance was done both internally and externally. A third leg evaluated the curriculum, and identified areas that needed to be strengthened. This function was similar to what the Sector Education and Training Authorities (SETAs) did.

The Chairperson summarised that evaluation was something that the SAPS needed to look into, because it was a common problem. She pointed out that there should be integration between the theory and the practical side. She pointed out that there was a need for integration, since the SAPS training was a “clinical” course. She stated that the issue of indemnity of students during training was one issue that needed attention. SAPS would be called back before the Committee to explain matters further.

The meeting was adjourned.


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