Department of Housing on Disestablishment South African Housing Trust Limited Bill: briefing
NCOP Public Services
22 February 2002
Meeting Summary
A summary of this committee meeting is not yet available.
Meeting report
PUBLIC SERVICES SELECT COMMITTEE
22 February 2002
DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING ON DISESTABLISHMENT OF SOUTH AFRICAN HOUSING TRUST
LIMITED BILL: BRIEFING
Chairperson: Ms P Majodina
(ANC)
Relevant Documents
Draft Provisional
Programme
Disestablishment
of the South African Housing Trust Limited Bill [B3-2002]
SUMMARY
The draft provision
programme of the committee was discussed by members, and the following issues
were raised:
- general planning of
the 2002 programme;
- the Strategic Planning Workshop scheduled for 12-13 March 2002;
- the problems surrounding the RDP houses; and
- the oversight function of this committee.
The Department of Housing briefed the Memorandum of the Disestablishment of the
South African Housing Trust Limited Bill [B3-2002] to the committee. The
following issues arising from the presentation were addressed by both the
Acting Director General and the delegation from the South African Housing
Trust:
- the reason for the transference of the assets and liabilities to the South
African national
 government;
- the current status of the assets and liabilities of the South African Housing
Trust;
- the allegations of corruption by directors of the South African Housing
Trust; and
- current measures taken by the Department of Housing to continue to provide
low-cost housing.
MINUTES
The Chair welcomed members to the first meeting after the State of the
Nation address by President Mbeki and the presentation of the national budget
for 2002 by Minister Manuel. Members were encouraged to analyse the documents
to find important issues relevant to powers and functions of the committee. The
composition of the committee had been somewhat rearranged. The committee now
had former members of the Select Committee on Land and Environmental Affairs
cluster, and members from the committee on Public Services had been relocated
to that select committee. This change would be officially effected as of next
week.
Draft Programme
The items on the draft programme were discussed:
- 25 February 2002: Local and central government would meet to discuss the
proposed plans of
action for the areas in desperate need of attention, including whether
foreigners were entitled to  temporary housing.
- 1 March 2002: The aim of the provincial visits was to effect better planning
and commitment of
resources by the cluster. The aims of these visits would complement the fact
that March 2002Â Â
had been designated the Human Rights month. These visits would then not take
place on Â
March 4 2002, as originally planned. The primary problem was that in these
areas the infrastructure needed to
support the housing community was not located within the vicinity of the
houses. This problem has to be
addressed as a matter of urgency.
- 4-8 March 2002: Here the provinces will be briefed on the Bill, and members
are urged to pla properly so that enough time is allocated to receive the mandate
from their respective
constituencies on the Bill.
- 11 March 2002: The Road to Safety Strategy Document would form the basis of
this workshop. A brief document on this issue would be provided to members by
the next meeting of this committee,Â
together with a summary of the document. This strategy document would
then complement the “Arrive Alive�
campaign, as it sought to incorporate the aim of that campaign throughout the
year, so that the festive periods are not the only times at which adherence to
road safety is strictly enforced.
- 12-13 March 2002: All three ministers from the cluster were invited to attend
this workshop, yet only Minister Omar
had confirmed so far. Confirmation from the Ministers of Public Works and
Housing were expected soon. The MEC's should also be invited in the spirit of
co-operative
government, so that a clear indication from the provinces themselves may be
ascertained on the
matter. The proposed venue is Robben Island.
This was not the final version of the programme for 2002, it merely served to
provide members with an outline of important matters to be discussed during the
first half of 2002.
Discussion
Mr T Ralane (ANC) asked why the member's training originally scheduled for 28
January to 1 February 2002 had fallen away.
The Chair replied that this had already been done by Parliament.
Mr Ralane referred
to the provincial visits scheduled for 1 March 2002 and urged that the
committee visit as many provinces as possible, especially the poorest provinces
and those most in need of attention. This committee should also convene before
the visits to discuss and fix its “terms of reference� for those visits in
terms of its objectives.
It did not seem plausible to invite all three ministers to the strategic
workshop planned for the 12-13 March 2002, as there was a wide range of issues
to be addressed by each minister. It was suggested that only Minister Omar be
invited on those two days, as he is the only Minister to have confirmed his
attendance to date.The Department of Transport specifically,had several
important issues to address this year.
Thirdly, the programme reflected that the constituency period took place
between 25 March and 19 April 2002. It was important for members to define
their terms of reference here as well, with regards to the stated objectives.
These included increasing the services provided at the shelters, as well as
increasing the quality of shelters provided. 1,2 million units had been erected
to date, and already numerous problems had surfaced. These included the
affordability of houses as well as the dual responsibilities and functioning of
the Department of Housing (the Department) and local government structures. The
relationship between these two structures was vital here. The problem was that,
in the Western Cape, residents were granted homes by the Department after a
long wait, only to then be evicted by the local government structure because
they are unable to pay the rent. This matter had to be looked at further.
Fourthly, this committee's proper exercise of its oversight function must form
the basis of all its decisions and deliberations during 2002. Indeed, more than
anything else this year, this committee had to examine:
- the way in which it enforced this function;
- compliance with this function; and
- issues of corruption within governmental departments.
Mr T Mahla, a member of the Gauteng provincial legislature and the Housing
Committee, referred to 1 March 2002, and requested that another date be fixed
for the provincial visits, as Parliament would be hosting the Africa Union
Conference on those
dates.
Â
Secondly, the strategic workshop planned for 12-13 March 2002 seemed to involve
other stakeholders as well, as this would not only involve this committee. In
view of this development it would be useful for members of this committee to
have a preliminary workshop, so that further understanding of the issues to be
discussed at the strategic planning workshop may be attained. A study group
would be useful.
Mr Ralane approved
of the draft programme, but cautioned that certain government departments
should not be left behind in forging new relationships with other departments.
The established relationships should not now fall by the wayside, and of
particular importance here, are the departments of Transport and Housing. It
had been suggested that the Department of Public Works receive significantly
more attention this year, and key issues in the Human Rights month of March
should be identified to assist that department. A balance thus had to be struck
between the attention given to each department.
Chief M Mokoena (ANC) fully endorsed the draft programme for 2002, especially the
increased attention given to the problem with the Reconstruction and
Development Programme (RDP) homes. It was requested that a meeting be arranged
with the Department of Housing (the Department) and the Department of Local
Government to clarify the recent problem with the RDP houses. It had been
reported in last week's print and electronic media that these houses are being
auctioned for a mere R10. The owners of these houses are evicted because they
are unable to repay an electricity bill of R250, for example, with the result
was that they are forced to become squatters. In fact, the municipality
official stated proudly on the news broadcast that the houses had been sold for
a mere R10, “simply because the owner could not pay�. This reasoning and course
of action was devoid of all logic, for it did not make sense that an asset
worth significantly more that R250 is sold for a mere R10, with the aim of
recovering the initial debt owed being the R250 bill. Thus the proposed meeting
had to be convened as a matter of urgency, because the South African government
had committed itself to improving the quality of life of its people. It was
futile to provide low-cost housing for South Africans, only to have it stripped
by local municipalities.
Secondly, the strategic planning workshop scheduled for 12-13 March 2002 was an �excellent idea�. It was however
suggested that one of the departments be removed from the agenda of that
workshop, because there were too many issues to be examined. The workshop would
be more productive if a day were set aside for a single department.
Mr Ralane contended
that this proposal would allow the problems to be addressed more effectively in
the workshop, but it created the further problem regarding the department to be
omitted from the proposed schedule. Perhaps a joint meeting with the other
select committees in this cluster could be scheduled to meet with the
respective department at the workshop.
The Chair commended members showing commitment and initiative this early in the
year. A joint meeting could be arranged, but the first step here was to meet
with the local government structure and public service department, so that
crucial issues would be discussed.
The preliminary process to the 12-13 March 2002 workshop was important, as this
committee had to devise its own strategic plan so that members might be better
prepared for the workshop.
The concern regarding the possible Africa Union Conference was noted, and this
committee would be able to finalise its own schedule as soon as the date for
the conference had been fixed.
The problem with the RDP houses raised by Mr Ralane was an important issue, as those houses
were specifically built for those citizens. An audit of the local government
structure was needed, so that it may be ascertained which citizens could afford
the houses.
The concern raised with the attention to be given to the Department of Public
Works was an important issue and should be addressed as soon as possible. That
department did not pass a single Bill during 2001, and Minister Sigcau had been
encouraged to get hands on experience with the inner workings of the department
and the challenges facing it.
The Chair contended that Mr Ralane's call for this committee to first establish its own terms of
reference before joining the workshop on 12-13 March was important, and duly
noted.
Mr Ralane suggested
that this committee broaden its plan in providing quality housing in South
Africa in general, especially in view of the massive problem with the fight
against squatting and the theme of the African Renaissance. South Africa had an
overwhelming influx of foreigners, and the adoption of a broad principle on the
provision of housing could possibly accommodate the increasing amount of
immigrants. There were 2 options here: either the army and South African Police
(SAP) could be authorised to escort the immigrants back across the border; or
the government could opt for naturalisation.
The reality of the matter was that the tenants sell these houses to foreigners,
pocket the money and resort to a life of squatting, and the cycle was thus
perpetuated. If the problem with squatting was to be solved a “bigger housing
plan� with regard to the RDP houses had to be devised and implemented as soon
as possible.
The Chair drew the members' attention to the minmec meetings in the programme.
Mr VÂ Windvoel (ANC) suggested that the state department
itself be invited to attend the strategic planning workshop scheduled for 12-13
march 2002, so that they could explain the position and provide valuable input.
The Chair agreed with
the proposals made by Mr Ralane and Mr Windvoel.
South African Housing Trust Limited
Disestablishment
of the South African Housing Trust Limited Bill [B3-2002]
The Acting Director General, South African Housing Trust Limited,Ms U Madida
took members through the Bill. It was requested that the disadvantages and
advantages in retaining the Trust, as well as the reasons for the transferring
of the assets of the Trust be made clear to members.
Discussion
Mr Ralane requested
the department to explain what had happened to the clients of Nu-Way Housing
Developments (Pty) Ltd (Nu-Way) and Khayalethu Home Loans (Pty) Ltd
(Khayalethu).
Mr C Stevens, Chairperson of the Trust, stated that the chairperson of the
Trust in 1999 implemented a decision handed down by Parliament itself to
dispose of the Trust and its liabilities. The two subsidiary companies of
Nu-Way and Khayalethu were sold as going concerns to black empowerment groups.
Khayalethu was sold to a company whose primary course of business was totally
unrelated to Parliament. The net result was that these businesses were now
trading and growing.
The Acting DG added that the clients of Nu-Way and Khayalethu had been taken
over completely by the new owners, as those businesses had been sold as a going
concern.
Rev P Moatshe (ANC) requested clarity on the R40m non-refundable grant made to
the Trust by the South African government.
Dr F Barnard, Chief Director in the Department, replied that the government had
planned to add a further R40 000 in an attempt to save the Trust, but nothing
happened and the local bond markets liquidated the Trust (especially the home
loan sector).
Chief Mokoena inquired
as to the value of the assets and defunct liabilities which the government was
now taking over.
Mr Stevens informed
the honourable member that approximately R571m worth of liabilities had now
been transferred from the Trust to government, and ran till 2008. These took
the form of various stock issued years ago, including to Eskom. The Bill provides
that the processing of this loan stock should be done properly by the National
Treasury of the government.
The assets of the Trust stand at approximately R70m, following the sale of the
2 subsidiaries. It had been decided that the Trust would transfer the R70m to
the National Housing Finance Corporation, which was wholly owned by the South
African government. The net result was that the Trust was now a mere shell.
Dr Barnard added
that financial implications for government were not significant here.
Dr P J C Nel (NNP) asked how much it would cost the government to reimburse
those directors of the Trust who had since retired.
Mr Stevens replied
that there were no financial indicators here, because no fees are attributable
to the directorship as there were no employees in the Trust. There were thus no
personal stakes involved, and the only reason the Trust had directors was
because it was required to do so by law.
A member then expressed his surprise at the few words said by the department
and the Trust delegation. It had to now be accepted that the Trust was now a
thing of the past. Also, it was suggested that all relevant information be
provided to assist this committee so that matters were not unnecessarily
repeated.
Mr Ralane reminded
members that disadvantaged South Africans wrote to President Mbeki personally
to ask him for assistance with housing. As this was a section 76 Bill, it had
to include public hearings, and this was an important opportunity for this
committee to make valuable input on this matter. Consultations with the
Minister of Housing could then also be undertaken, so acquire further
understanding of the matter.
Mr J Mkhaliphi (ANC) questioned whether the winding up of the Trust was done
timeously. Secondly, the Department was requested to provide this committee
with a progress report on its accomplishments to date.
The Acting DG replied to the first question by stating that all efforts had
been made to ensure that these arrangements were properly made.
Mr Mahla informed the committee that it had been reported that the Trust's
assets had been bought by its former directors. Could this be the case?
Mr Stephens replied
that he had no knowledge of such transactions, and the process of applying and
the awarding of tenders was “completely open and transparent�. Furthermore, the
Trust is a section 21 company, which meant it does not function to provide
directors and stakeholders with a realisable profit at the end of the day's
business, but rather operates “not for gain�. The dissolution of Trust via
liquidation was not elected, because this route would effectively relieve the
Trust of all its debts and obligations, which was not the intention behind the
dissolution. Instead, it was decided to justly and equitably wind-up the Trust,
so that its duties and obligations would be transferred to the South African
government.
Mr Mkhaliphi stated
that when reference was made to the public hearings, the representatives should
be able to respond to the matter being discussed.
Mr Ralane requested clarity of the issue that the proposed clause 3(b) of the
Bill refers to the “national debt�, and if the two subsidiaries were really
sold off, why and how could they now be part of government?
Mr Stephens replied that the answer to this question was twofold: firstly, the
government had acquired the liabilities of the Trust which currently stood at
R570m in loan stock, which was not really considered a debt of the
subsidiaries, but was the only proper means of financing the Trust. Secondly,
the subsidiaries were divested without any recourse to government.
A member suggested
that this was a separate matter. The Department was requested to explain the
commitments, if any, it had made to the clients of the subsidiaries. The
Department was not being asked to explain the reasons for not relying on or
employing SCOPA, but the Department should make full use of this opportunity of
addressing Parliament so that the process might be completed more efficiently.
The allegations of corruption leveled against the directors earlier had to be
investigated further, and any possible conflict of interest had to be
prevented.
The Chair called on the Department to respond.
Mr Stevens replied to the member's question by stating that the Trust and its
subsidiaries do not share any common directors, and the disposal of the Trust's
assets were effected by the holding company alone, and the subsidiaries were
not even remotely involved in the transaction. The subsidiaries could therefore
not have exerted any sort of significant influence over the process.
The Acting DG agreed with Mr Stevens.
Mr R M Nyakane (UDM) referred to the phrase “affordable housing� in the Bill,
and requested the Department to explain alternative measures that had taken
effect affordable housing, since the Trust was now a thing of the past.
The Acting DG replied that institutions had been put in place to provide this
service, including the provision of end-user finance and working capital
schemes. The problem here was that the contractors who submit tenders for these
projects, were unable to secure loans from the financial institutions because
of strict requirements of these particular loans. The result was that the
National Housing Finance Corporation had to be approached for loans to the
intermediaries, so that a series of smaller loans amounting to the total sum
may be procured by the contractors. The Department had thus put measures in
place to ensure the “clients were not hurt�.
The Chair approved of the measures taken by the Department and stated that
several important issues had been unearthed here. It was good that the
Department had informed this committee of these concerns, as both bodies could
now endeavour to arrive at a joint decision on such matters, especially with
regard to the problems with the financial institutions. The Department was
hereby encouraged to maintain regular communication with this committee.
Mr Ralane requested the Department to supply members with a written copy of
their presentation.
The meeting was adjourned.
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