Auditor General's Report on Department of Home Affairs:hearing

Public Accounts (SCOPA)

21 August 2001
Share this page:

Meeting Summary

A summary of this committee meeting is not yet available.

Meeting report

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE (SCOPA)
21 AUGUST 2001
AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORT ON DEPARTMENT OF HOME AFFAIRS: HEARING

Chairperson: Dr G Woods (IFP)

Documents handed out:
Auditor-General's Report on Home Affairs [RP 125 - 2000] (available from AG's website)
SCOPA's questions to Department of Home Affairs
Department of Home Affairs response to SCOPA's questions, dated 11 June 2001
[email
[email protected] for document]

Auditor General's website:
www.agsa.co.za (currently offline; to be re-launched at beginning of September)

SUMMARY
The Committee met to discuss the Report of the Auditor-General on the Department of Home Affairs. The order of business was delayed as a Committee member raised the issue of whether or not the current Director General of the Department of Home Affairs was in fact the legally appointed Director General. The issue was raised in the light of allegations in the media leveled at the Director General. These allegations concerned the validity of his appointment. This was in turn of importance as the status of the meeting would depend on the status of the individual making representations. Despite objections from opposition members, the meeting continued.

During the hearing, the overall performance of the Department of Home Affairs was placed under close scrutiny. At its conclusion, the Committee felt that the Department had performed well in answering the questions put to them, but as the Department had failed to produce important information, the performance of the Department could not be properly appraised. The Committee also felt that the measures it intended to implement would greatly assist the Department in striving to fulfill its mandate, but before this could happen the Department would have to clarify the status of the Director-General.

MINUTES
Ms R Taljaard (DA) raised the point that in light of the recent media allegations leveled at the Director General of the Department of Home Affairs, the meeting could not continue. The allegations revolved around the validity of Mr Billy Masetlha's appointment as Director General of the Department, as she pointed out to the chair in correspondence with him . She said that this issue must be addressed before continuing.

Mr B Kannemeyer (ANC) said that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts [SCOPA] study group which had met to prepare for the meeting had not discussed this matter as they felt it was not the business of SCOPA. He asked why Ms Taljaard's correspondence and her intention to raise this point at the meeting had not been communicated to them. The matter should have been resolved before the meeting or the meeting should have been postponed. Mr Kannemeyer said that he spoke on behalf of the sub-committee/cluster that had prepared for this hearing, and not just for the ANC, when he said that they were prepared for the hearing and ready to continue.

Ms C Seaton (IFP) said that this matter was important. It did not only relate to whether the Director General had a contract, but also to whether or not "we had a Director General at all". She had heard from a valid source that the Department of Home Affairs did at present not have a Director General.

Mr Kannemeyer said that it was highly improper to call a large departmental delegation from Pretoria and to do raise matters of exclusively internal and procedural concern. Such matters should have, and could have, been properly dealt with before.

Ms Seaton said that the Department of Home Affairs did not have a Director General and that the Order Paper reflected this. On the Order Paper a meeting was scheduled to appoint a Chief Accounting Officer for the Department of Home Affairs. She said that this chief accounting officer was the Director General's position.

Mr Kannemeyer said that this 'argument' was precisely what the cluster had tried to prevent. When the meeting had been scheduled for Tuesday instead of Wednesday, he had raised the matter of the contentious contract. In reply to Ms Seaton's statement, he said that the Order Paper made no reference to such a meeting. He continued that this was a political matter and that it would be pointless for anyone to pretend that it was not. There were certain members of the Committee who only attended meetings when there were matters that were politically charged on the agenda.

Dr G Woods (Chairperson, IFP) pointed out that any member was entitled to raise pertinent points. The issue before them was an important one as the status of the person appearing on behalf of the Department would impact on the status of the meeting. He suggested that they could ask the Director General what he felt his own status was. However the status of the Director General should not stop the meeting as he saw definite value in continuing so that the Committee could gather information.

Mr G Koornhof (UDM) said that the previous day the cluster had decided to continue and that it is always said "that the taxpayers' money gets wasted". Thus they should continue despite the perceived problems.

Ms Taljaard said that the matter was a point of law. It concerned the Public Services Act and the Public Finance Management Act, which was the presently ruling Act. The matter was a cold and clinical legal matter that could be answered by looking at the relevant statutes.

Dr Woods maintained that despite all this, they would continue. This would happen without a vote as it was clear to him that there was a majority in favour of continuing.

Ms Taljaard said that she would like her objections to be noted and that she would be taking the matter up with the Chairperson.

Mr B Nair (ANC) interjected asking the Chair what steps had the Chair taken to resolve the matter and establish the validity or invalidity of the Director General's appointment, particularly in the light of Ms Taljaard's correspondence?

At this point the Chair ruled that all further comments relating to the validity of the appointment of the Director General be withheld as the course of action had been chosen and was now being pursued. The hearing commenced.

A - Financial Management and Implementation of the PFMA
Mr Beukman (NNP) asked what steps had been taken to improve the training and staffing level of the Anti-Corruption Unit, Internal Audit, Audit Committee and the Directorate: Security and Ethical Conduct, as mentioned in the Department's written response.

Mr Masethla replied that the report said that there had been a duplication in the Department in relation to the fight against corruption and mismanagement. There were three structures which the report recommended be collapsed into one. There had been changes since November 2000 in that there was now one unit of people who already possessed the required skills. In addition to this additional members of staff had been trained to perform these functions. Also the Department had entered into a partnerships with the Police Services and the so-called 'Scorpions'. Despite all these advances there were additional problems such as the actual deployment of the new found expertise.

Mr Beukman asked whether the fraud prevention plan had been implemented at regional and area-level.

Mr Masethla replied that the fraud prevention plan had been implemented at national and regional level, but not at a local level. This was because negotiations took a lengthy period to conclude. He also said that at the time the Department did not have the capacity or resources to carry this out. He pointed out that at national level the plan has been implemented with individuals at national level training others to perform at a local level.

Mr Beukman asked if there was a date by which the problem would be addressed.

The Director General replied that the plan was a multifaceted one that would take a great deal effort to implement. That very day he had overseen the arrest of certain officials. Because of the nature of the subject matter the implementation of the plan would pose additional burdens. The Department was too small to do the task on its own and that limited financial resources were another constraint on its performance. Despite all the hardships, the plan and the Department's efforts are starting to bear fruit.

Mr Beukman asked what steps are being taken on regional and area-level to implement the said requirements to ensure the financial statements are submitted by the new deadlines.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department had taken to sending their own people out to assist others in meeting the new deadlines. To date, the deadline has been met, in some cases by a week in advance.

At this point Dr Woods interjected saying that he had heard that the Department had met all its deadlines and said that the Department needed to be commended and thanked for its performance in this area.

Mr Beukman asked what steps had been taken to improve the staff composition of the internal audit unit and the functions that this component carried out in the past financial year.

The Director General replied that the Internal Audit Committee had said that there were serious gaps in the audit. The Internal Audit Committee said that these shortcomings were a result of the structure of the internal audit. As a result the Department has since revised the structure of its internal audit and has advertised a vacancy for the post of an auditor general. The person to fill this director level position was currently undergoing the final stages of the interview process. Currently there were five positions available in the auditing department. Rather than filling all five of these posts, they were going to hire a head for the department who would fill the other posts according to the skills that the head of department felt were needed.

Mr Beukman wanted to know if a Chief Financial Officer had now been appointed.

Mr Masethla replied that they did have a Chief Financial Officer in the recent past but he had recently stopped working there to work at the Reserve Bank. They had looked for an individual for quite some time and had since found an individual who has recently been approved.

Mr Beukman asked what steps would be taken to ensure compliance by the CFO with the formal performance contract. In the original question and answer procedure the Department said that the CFO would be required to sign such an agreement.

Mr Masethla replied that he always hires individuals subject to such an agreement. The hiring of the CFO would be no exception. In terms of this contract the first year of the CFO's appointment will be on a probationary basis. After this first year the CFO's performance will be evaluated and if the person does not live up to expectations the contract can be canceled.

Mr Beukman asked the Director General to tell the Committee whether the MTEF Plan was indeed submitted to the National Treasury by 30 June 2001.

Mr Masethla replied that the Plan was ready and submitted before the deadline. He would give the plan to the Committee as soon as possible.

Dr Woods commented that there was no obligation to give this document to the Committee and that the Director General only need make it available to those members who requested it.

Mr Beukman asked what steps had been taken to implement performance budgeting at regional and district level.

Mr Masethla replied that the process of readying all the regions had been initiated already. The first step was an orientation process which had already begun. The next step would be to get the regional finance chiefs to adapt to the new approach. After this was done, the process would be completed at a local level. The whole process was an ongoing one fraught with difficulties including the fact that a number of other things also needed immediate attention.

Mr Beukman asked what preventative mechanisms had been put in place to protect state assets as had been mentioned in the answer given in the original question and answer process.

Mr Masethla stated that in the past these control measures were very poor and inviduals did not know how to do basic registration of these assets. Now statutorily required mechanisms had been put in place and at a basic level, the assets of the government were in fact being protected.

B - Unauthorised Expenditure
Ms N Hlangwana (ANC) asked all the questions relating to this matter. She asked the Director General what measures had been taken to ensure that a similar occurrence of unauthorised expenditure did not happen.

The Director General replied that mechanisms had indeed been put in place to ensure that there was not a reoccurrence of such unauthorised expenditure. One such mechanism was an inter-departmental committee who was charged, with amongst other things, preventing such a reoccurrence.

Ms Hlangwana asked what steps had been taken to implement speedier process of approval from the relevant authorities.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department had been in consultation with the Treasury and the Tender Board. The Tender Board had been helpful in speeding up the processes. In the past the Department would have to submit tenders before a certain date. However, these tenders would invariably only be approved by the Tender Board after the closing date for submission of tenders. As a result there was an obvious need for the process to be speeded up. The Department had done all they could do to speed the process up on their part. However once the matter had been passed on to other bodies, they had little chance of impacting on the speed with which things were handled.

Ms Hlangwana asked what steps had been taken to train officials with regard to correct vetting procedures for oral instructions given by himself.

Mr Masethla replied that he had a mechanism which he called the Director General secretariat. This secretariat was responsible for following up on all oral instructions given by him. In addition to this the secretariat was charged with ensuring that all matters decided on were followed up. This body served as a kind of personal assistant.

Ms Hlangwana asked Mr Masethla if he did not feel that giving oral instructions was perhaps not the best practice and that instead he should give instructions in written form.

Mr Masethla agreed that giving instructions orally was not the best practice. He told the Committee that for this reason he did in fact give instructions in writing most of the time. Instructions given orally are very rarely not supplemented with instructions in writing.

Ms Hlangwana reminded the Director General that the State Tender Board had extended the contract to convey illegal immigrants until 31 March 2001. She asked the Director General to confirm the status of the contract.

Mr Masethla replied that originally the Department asked for the extension of the contract to 31 March 2001. However, at the time the Department was engaged in negotiations with the Defence Force. The Defence Force was being pursued as a possible cheaper means of accomplishing the function. In light of this the Department again requested an extension to November 2001, which was granted.

C - Internal Control: Market Street Regional Office
The questions relating to this area were asked by Ms K Mothoagae (ANC). She asked the Director General what steps had been taken to improve the Provisioning Administration Management System.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department was busy implementing the new system and that measures were put in place to improve the system. Mr Masethla admitted that in the past there was no supervision as individuals who were responsible for overseeing others failed to do even the most basic level of supervising. Now they had a system where at the local level individuals were required to submit regular reports to regional offices.

Ms Mothoagae asked the Director General to shed light on the current staffing levels at the Market Street Regional Office.

Mr Masethla replied that there were currently 158 posts at that office and that 124 of these were presently filled. Out of the 34 vacancies, 17 could not be filled because these individuals went out on voluntary severance packages. Currently there were seven posts for migration officers and seven posts for security officers being advertised.

Ms Mothoagae asked the Director General if he was confident that the current staff are capable of dealing with the problems experienced at the Market Street Regional Office.

Mr Masethla replied that he was and that they were in fact working towards 100% staff competency.

Ms Mothoagae asked the Director General whether or not the moratorium on the filling of vacant posts had been lifted.

Mr Masethla replied that the moratorium had not been lifted because the there would have to be a creation of a whole new establishment. This would have to occur because 600 people went out on severance packages. The process of rationalisation still needs to be completed.

Ms Mothoagae asked what steps had been taken to introduce measures to address the lack of internal controls at the Market Street Regional Office.

Mr Masethla replied that there were now two units in place. An inspectorate and an internal audit unit. He would like to create a position where everyone in the Department is constantly under supervision and management.

Ms Mothoagae raised the issue of the high incidence of passport theft out of the Market Street Regional Office. She asked what was being done to address this serious problem.

Mr Masethla replied that the matter was presently being dealt with. He had spoken to Scotland Yard who had informed him that in the United Kingdom, South African passports sell for about 10 000 British Pounds. This was a serious incentive for thieves to steal passports. The Department had made headway, but the syndicate had shifted to another phase in the production. The Department was making serious headway in the fight against this theft. When the 3000 passports were recently highjacked, the Department had known something was going to happen but did not know when and what precisely. They managed to recover 80% of the stolen passports.

Ms Mothoagae asked what steps had been taken to curb the similar problem in relation to identity books. She noted that the demand for these documents was as high as that for passports given the high incidence of illegal immigrants.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department was getting on top of this issue too. They were also introducing new measures around the late registration of birth as this was one of the areas in which identity books were fraudulently acquired

D - Government Printing Works
Mr Kannemeyer said that from its initial response, it can be seen that the Department has difficulty recovering debts. He asked what steps are taken and what mechanisms are used to recover debts.

Mr Masethla replied that in the past they needed political intervention to get debtors to pay. What they have taken to doing is operating like an ordinary commercial business where they refuse to supply when the debtor fails to pay for too long.

Mr Kannemeyer said that it would be helpful to have an indication of the size of individual debts and how long each of them has been outstanding. He noted that the Department had recovered R138 million before May 2001. He asked how much money was still outstanding and how much money had been recovered since May.

Mr Masethla replied he did not have this information with him but would make it available as soon as possible.

Mr Kannemeyer pointed out that the Auditor-General had reported that the paymaster-general account had been overdrawn. He asked about the status of this account and what steps had been taken to reduce the overdraft. He said that he knew that the overdraft had been reduced by R50 million, but he did not know what the outstanding amount was. In light of this the reduction of the overdraft could not be fully analysed. He asked Mr Masethla if he had information to shed more light on the situation.

Mr Masethla replied he had no such information with him but would also get this information to the Committee members as soon as possible.

Mr Kannemeyer referred to a letter dated 6 March 2001 which mentioned that security staff would continue to provide security for the building and its contents until the disposal thereof was concluded. He asked what the status of this process was.

Mr Masethla replied that the entire process had been concluded. All the movable property had been taken to Pretoria and the security staff were likewise reassigned to Pretoria.

Mr Kannemeyer said that operations at the Umtata printing works had been seized and since closure, only the security guards have been employed there. He asked Mr Masethla to elaborate on the expenditure of R883 004, 04 on staff.

Mr Masethla replied that after the closure of the printing works, it had taken some time to reassign many of the staff. As a result the entire staff complement was still there for some time. The amount given constituted remuneration for the entire staffing of 202 people.

E - Performance Auditing: Migration Process
Ms N Hlangwana said that according to the immigration code, detailed records of couriers should be kept. She asked Mr Masethla why such records had not been kept.

Mr Masethla replied that records had been kept but not on a centralised basis. The records were made but not to the level of detail required and not in the prescribed form.

Ms Hlangwana asked what steps could be taken in terms of the immigration code where there is non-compliance on the part of these couriers.

Mr Masethla replied that there were a number of legal processes available. The Department preferred not to use the legal mechanisms. He said what the Department does sometimes do, however, is to blacklist these couriers.

Ms Hlangwana asked what mechanisms were used to ensure that immigrants undergoing repatriation reach their destination.

Mr Masethla replied that they used to rely on a specialised police unit. However, this unit was unsuited for the job as they were corrupt and would let numerous immigrants go free for a fee. Now, there is a public service unit who helps the Department with repatriation. There were additional problems that could not be solved as a result of a lack of funds. The Department also had an arrangement with Spoornet whereby trains are used. However there is no specialised train with the capability of detaining people. People jump off the train and escape in a number of ways. Once they reach the border post, there are only a few officials as opposed to hundreds of immigrants who simply make their way back over the border as soon as they get off the train.

Ms Hlangwana asked what steps were being taken to retrieve the costs of repatriation from the relevant countries, given the fact that the Department has such limited funds.

Mr Masethla replied that this was a difficult process and that the Department was engaged in negotiations with a number of countries, such as Mozambique and Nigeria. What the Department had started doing was recovering part of the cost of repatriation from individuals who employ illegal immigrants.

Ms Hlangwana noted that Mr Masethla had said that the lack of immigration officers posed a problem. She asked him to elaborate.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department had recently had an intense workshop. The problem was that immigration officers were too few and the way in which they conducted searches was perhaps not the ideal. City raids work to a certain extent but through a network of informants, targets learn to avoid these raids. The workshop was held to try and establish better ways to accomplish their goals. The new strategy would be through the building up of intelligence and through control of the points of entry.

Ms Hlangwana asked what the procedure was for identifying and apprehending illegal immigrants.

Mr Masethla replied that this was indeed quite a contentious issue as in the past some very dubious tests had been used.

The Committee then made references to tests such as the pencil test and 'being too black to be South African'.

Mr Masethla mentioned the 'scar on the arm test'. He said this test involved looking at the immunization scar on the arm of an individual. This was done because individuals from Mozambique have a bigger scar which is often located on the opposite arm to where South Africans usually have theirs. Other tests included accent and the way an individual would say certain words - one such word being 'Rhodesia'. These so-called tests had been done away with and the Department was currently working with the SAPS and the HRC to try and find a more humane way of identifying illegal immigrants.

Management Information
Ms Hlangwana noted that there was a five month backlog in the capturing of information on the Management Control System (MCS). She asked if the backlog had been dealt with as the Department had said that the backlog would have been dealt with already.

Mr Masethla replied that the backlog had not been taken care of.

Ms Hlangwana asked the Director General if he thought the current migration system complied with all the relevant needs and requirements.

Mr Masethla replied that it was not in compliance and that was the reason why the new Immigration Control Bill is so contentious.

Equipment at Airports
Ms Hlangwana noted that the Department had bought expensive equipment which had since fallen into disrepair and disuse. She said that the cluster that had prepared for the hearing had been concerned with the tone with which the initial questions had been answered. The tone of the reply seemed to suggest that the Department did not care that the equipment did not work and that it was okay because the equipment was not really needed. She also noted that the equipment was located in the wrong places. She asked why the equipment was purchased if it was not needed. She mentioned the example of the passport readers that had been used for only a very short time.

Mr Masethla replied that the Department had made a mistake. In acquiring the equipment they had failed to do a technical assessment of their needs. After acquiring them, it was discovered that the passport readers were incompatible. These readers were now twelve years old and no longer on the market and as a result could not be upgraded or repaired.

Conclusion
At its conclusion, the Committee felt that the Department had answered the questions put to them well and that the measures it intended to implement would greatly assist the Department in striving to fulfill its mandate. Mr Kannemeyer however expressed disappointment at the fact that the Department had failed to produce very important information. As a result of this failure to produce pertinent information, the Committee could not properly evaluate the performance of the Department.

Mr Kannemeyer closed the meeting thanking the Department of Home Affairs for attending. He apologised for the initial delay in the hearing that morning but said that the Department would have to resolve the matter if the Department was to perform its duty properly.

Audio

No related

Documents

No related documents

Present

  • We don't have attendance info for this committee meeting

Download as PDF

You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.

See detailed instructions for your browser here.

Share this page: