Briefing by Indian High Commissioner to South Africa

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International Relations

17 October 2001
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Meeting report

FOREIGN AFFAIRS PORTFOLIO COMMITTEE
17 October 2001
BRIEFING BY INDIAN HIGH COMMISSIONER TO SOUTH AFRICA

Acting-Chairperson: Mr M D Sithole

Documents handed out:
Address by India’s Foreign Defence Minister, Mr Jaswant Singh
Press statements by the Ministry of External Affairs (See Appendix)
Article by Prem Shankar Jha, “Eyes wide shut”

SUMMARY
The Indian High Commissioner to South Africa, Mr Shiv Mukherjee briefed the Committee on India’s foreign policy. From the comments by the Indian High Commissioner it was evident that India supports the US unconditionally in their fight against terrorism in Afghanistan and the rest of the world.

India was concerned that the US was enlisting the help of Pakistan against Afghanistan when it was Pakistan themselves that had assisted the Taliban in their rise of power. It was evident that the conflict in Kashmir had escalated and that peace talks between India and Pakistan had reached a stalemate. It was interesting to note that India was in the process of normalising its relations with China and that they even have diplomatic ties with Israel given their support to the Palestinian cause.

It further came to light that India has a very amicable relationship with South Africa and the US even though they vehemently oppose India’s continuation of its nuclear programme. India has refused to become a signatory of treaties calling for the disarmament of nuclear weapons. It is adamant that its nuclear capability is purely for security reasons. India would only consider disarming its nuclear weapons if all the major nuclear powers would follow suit.

MINUTES
Indian High Commission to South Africa
The Indian High Commissioner, Mr Shiv Mukherjee addressed the Committee on India’s foreign policy.He noted that it was often the perception that because of India’s coalition type of government they would have a very fragmented foreign policy. On the contrary, it was stated that India had always had a national consensus on all its policy objectives such as Kashmir and terrorism.

Mr Mukherjee proceeded with a breakdown of what India’s response was to the September 11, 2001 bombings of the World Trade Centre. India has extended its full support to the United States in its fight against terrorism. The High Commissioner pointed out that India has a long history of fighting terrorism and that it would need a concerted effort internationally if it were to be effective. The response should be non-selective and a zero-tolerance stance should be adopted.

India is apparently the only country that has drafted an all-incumbent convention on all acts of terrorism. One of the major principles of the convention is that political justification is not allowed to justify acts of terrorism. Mr Mukherjee observed that had it not been for Pakistan’s support of the Taliban, the world would not have found itself in the position that it is in. Pakistan is partly to blame for the current state of events. He strongly felt that the world should take cognisance of this fact. It has apparently been stated that the US would be in favour of moderate elements of the Taliban taking control over Afghanistan. India is totally opposed to the idea and communicated these sentiments to the US.

The issue of Kashmir has been a long and hard battle for India but attempts have always been made to encourage continuous dialogue ever since the signing of the Shimla agreement in 1972. The problem seems to lie in the fact that Pakistan has continued to fuel terrorism in Kashmir and allows guerilla-training camps in Pakistan. Pakistan has continually breached agreements and made unreasonable demands on India to hand over Kashmir. To hold the whole dialogue hostage to unreasonable demands is a sure recipe for failure. The unfortunate fact is that terrorist attacks in Kashmir have escalated.
  
Mr Mukherjee stated that India has started normalising relations with China since 1988. Even though a border problem exists between the two countries, the High Commissioner seemed optimistic that relations between India and China are improving. Joint working groups comprising of representatives from either country have been formed to continually work on the border issue. Talks have commenced on issues like trade, commerce.

The High Commissioner noted that India has always been at the forefront in the support for the Palestinian cause in the Middle East as like any nation they are undoubtedly entitled to a homeland of their own. India is supportive of all the United Nations resolutions in this regard. It however did come to light that India had entered into diplomatic relations with Israel in 1992. It was accompanied by much criticism from the Arab world but India feels that having diplomatic relations with Israel could allow India to play a positive role in trying to solve the conflict. Finding a solution to the conflict is what is wished for at the end of the day.

Mr Mukherjee made an interesting point that prior to 1990, the US had always viewed India through a Soviet prism. India was perceived as being a Soviet ally. This was indeed surprising to Indians, as they saw themselves as being a non-aligned country during the Cold War years. At about the same time as the demise of the Soviet Union, India started to liberalise its economy. Corporate America took the opportunity of investing in India and the relationship has been growing ever since. The India and US however do not see eye to eye on India’s nuclear development and testing but Mr Mukherjee stated that differences between the two countries are to be expected.
  
The High Commissioner was proud about the fact that South Africa and India share historical links. Relations between the two countries are excellent politically. Mr Mukherjee stated that a priority area that requires strengthening is the economic and commercial side. The signing of a free trade agreement between India and SA is on the books. It was evident that India and South Africa disagree on certain issues. South Africa is totally against the development and testing of nuclear weapons and has unilaterally relinquished its nuclear capacity. India on the other hand has refused to sign the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. Mr Mukherjee noted that they refused to sign the treaties because there is discrimination between the have and the have-nots of nuclear weapons. The larger nuclear powers wish smaller countries to relinquish power whilst they keep theirs in tact. The aim of the treaties is not on disarmament but to discriminate against the smaller countries that have nuclear capability.

Discussion:
Ms F Mahomed (ANC) asked if it is correct that India has a comprehensive dialogue on Kashmir with Pakistan. Has any timeframes been set for such dialogues?

Mr Mukherjee stated that dialogues have been delayed due to Pakistan inciting terrorist activities. Timeframes for dialogues have been disrupted as a result of the attacks on the US.

Dr B Geldenhuys (NNP) asked what  was the Northern Alliance’s relationship with Pakistan.

Mr Mukherjee noted that if Pakistan is supporting the Taliban, the logical conclusion is that the Northern Alliance does not get along with Pakistan. In essence the Northern Alliance is opposed to both the Taliban and Pakistan.

Ms F Hajaij (ANC) asked for comment on President Bush’s announcement that if countries are not with the US then they are seen as being against them.
She also asked if it was not possible that the US was using the events of September 11 as an excuse to put its hidden motives on the rest of the world.

The High Commissioner refused to comment on the statement by President Bush. He stated that India supports the attempts of the US and the rest of the world to stamp out terrorism.
Mr Mukherjee also refused to comment on the second question.

Dr Z P Jordan (ANC) asked the following questions:
(i) He referred to a book written by a Pakistani journalist by the name of Rashid in which he states that the objectives of the Taliban is to go beyond the borders of Afghanistan to form a confederation of Islamic states. Is India aware of this possibility? Dr Jordan had concerns that if this was to happen what would be the implications on the Indian sub continent if the Taliban were to get their hands on the nuclear weapons of Pakistan.
(ii) Is the relationship with China growing from strength to strength or does it have its ups and downs?
(iii) Does India ever foresee themselves following South Africa’s suit of unilaterally destroying its nuclear weapons.
(iv) Concern was raised over the past close relationship between the Pakistani government and the Taliban and whether the assistance by Pakistan to the US is genuine. Has India raised these concerns with the US?

The High Commissioner gave the following responses:
(i) India is aware of the intentions of the Taliban but it more importantly felt that terrorist agendas should be viewed in its broader context. Mr Mukherjee stated that it would not be in the interest of India for Pakistan to be destabilised. Pakistan has always maintained that their safety systems are overly adequate.
(ii) Mr Mukherjee felt that India’s relationship with China could only grow from strength to strength and could not foresee anything in the future that would jeopordise their relationship.
(iii) Mr Mukherjee reiterated that the only reason why India maintains its nuclear arsenal is for security reasons. If major nuclear powers agreed to dismantle their nuclear arsenals then India would have no problem in following suit.
However true it may be that India has nuclear weapons, the High Commissioner wished it to be known that India has “no first use” and “no use policy against a non nuclear state” policies in place to ensure that the weapons are not used for illegitimate purposes.
(iv) India had raised the concerns with the US. Mr Mukherjee stated that India would have to wait and see how matters evolve.

Mr E Saloojee (ANC) raised the following issues:
(i) If India had been a “client state” of the US in the purchase of weapons as Pakistan had been, would India have had some working arrangement with the US.
(ii) Is it not ominous that a Middle Eastern country does not form part of the Security Council of the United Nations?
(iii) Mr Saloojee felt it incongruous for the US to use Pakistan to fight the Taliban. Pakistan is contaminated by the fact that they are the creators of the Taliban themselves. Is the fight against terrorism credible? Or is it merely the US saving face?
 
Mr Mukherjee reacted in the following ways:
(i) The High Commissioner stated that the US in the event of a nuclear onslaught on countries like Australia and Canada guarantees protection to them. If India had been in the fortunate position of falling under client umbrella of the US as these countries, the need for India to have developed its own nuclear arsenal might not have been necessitated.
(ii) Mr Mukherjee pointed out that Syria has in fact been given a seat on the Security Council.
(iii) The High Commissioner stated that when the US armed the Afghanistani mujahidheen against the Soviets, the US supplied weapons stayed behind. It is a concern that the US supplied weapons being given to Pakistan could in the future be used against India. He referred members to the article, “Eyes wide shut” by Prem Shankar Jha, which could shed further light on the issue.

Adv Z Madasa (ACDP) asked if India would like the US to stay in the region after the conflict had been resolved in order to ensure that Pakistan becomes a democratic country.

The High Commissioner said that he does not wish for foreign powers to be present in their region as much as he would like to see Pakistan become a democratic country.    

The meeting was adjourned.

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