Media Briefing by Justice Crime Prevention and Security Cluster

Journalist: My question is directed to Minister Radebe, it’s related to the Rwandan diplomatic spat. Does South Africa have concrete evidence in its possession that Rwanda backed squads are operating illegally in South Africa? If this is the case what is the nature of this evidence. The second related question to that is, if South Africa expelled the Rwandan diplomats because it attracts them to the attackers on General Nyamwasa’s house, why haven’t we arrested the actual attackers?

Journalist: My question is to the Minister of State Security. Minister last week in Parliament the long outstanding reports of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence was published and this covers the period of this Government. I think especially the first of those reports are self-explanatory; I don’t want to go into those details. I just want to know what has been done to remedy what was identified in that report. Secondly given the analysis of our State Security Agency in that report, do you really believe that the State Security Agency as the primary focus of the Protection of Information Bill, is in a position to actually administer that Bill? Thirdly there was strong criticism levelled at yourself, how would you react to that and your ability to actually function in your position. And finally the designated judge, Judge Khumalo had strong criticism regarding the use, and tis will also go to Minister Mthetwa of the police’s use of Section 8, and this is a very long name, of the Regulation of Interception of Communication and Provision of Communication Related Information Act of 2002 which is a part of that Act which says that in an emergency situation the judge’s ascend (sic) does not have to be asked. It says that 1000’s, 3217 in one year of such interceptions were done and that no records were kept in previous years, of the police thereby circum-navigating basically the judge who is supposed to regulate these things. Do you think that the section of the Act should be changed?

Journalist: just follow-on from Wendel’s questions. The Rwandan Foreign Minister had said that South Africa’s harbouring of dissidents responsible for terrorists attacks that was his retaliation to the expulsion of diplomats, what is Government’s reaction to that, that they accuse us of harbouring terrorists in South Africa. And secondly in the 2013 State of the Nation Address the President said that, this is for the Justice Minister that he would be instructing Minister Radebe to open or allocate special courts to prioritise cases of public violence due to protests. Has that been done and have there been several cases where the public violence issues have been prioritised within the court role?

Journalist: This is to Minister Mthetwa. Minister this week a 3 year old toddler was one of a handful of people killed on the Cape Flats due to ongoing gang violence. Now communities are, as you can imagine extremely angry. They are blaming both national and provincial government and many people are saying they are not going to the polls on the 7^th of May because they have basically lost faith and they feel that the system has let them down. How do you response to this and what is your message to them and what is actually going on?

Minister Jeff Radebe: I am surprised that the first question is about Rwanda when we have not said anything about it, but we will answer it. I think the first point to be made is that there is good diplomatic relations between South Africa and Rwanda and those still remain intact. But having said that, the South African Government has taken a decision to declare persona non granta of certain persons from Rwanda and Burundi who violated Article 1 of the Vienna Convention and Article 9 of the Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges Act and that is the main reason why that action was taken. Arising from illegal activities that have taken place where there were attempted murders including a murder of nationals who are in South Africa. As a South African Government we want to send a very stern warning to anybody anywhere in the world that our country will not be used as a springboard to do illegal activities. That we are a constitutional democracy and that any individual or groups of people who abuse our human rights dispensation will face the full might of the law.

The other questions are directed to Minister Cwele and Minister Nathi Mthetwa, and the DG of Justice will deal with the courts.

Minister Siyabonga Cwele: Thank you Chairperson, quite clearly we are not discussing the reports of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. But as you have heard in the statement the restructuring which was happening in the Intelligence community is complete, we have a new management which we announced last year and we are functioning very well. In terms of the matters which may be seen as a needing remedy by JCI we always consider those annually when we are looking at the following annual year. As you know it is not only the JCI, the Inspector General also issue certificates which have specific recommendations and the Auditor General auditors also issues the audits which we always responds to, so the urgency is functioning very well. On the issue of the Protection of the Information Bill, yes we are readying ourselves for the implementation of that Bill. As soon as everything is ready we will then ask for the promulgation of the legislations.

The issues of criticism, I think I have addressed those issues because some of them may not really, the JCI may be in a better position. What I have seen in most of those things that I was very busy in that year. Ministers are very busy doing their work, they are not busy on holidays, we are always busy doing our work both here, as you know we have a domestic element and a foreign element. At all times we are always occupied by those types of activities, I don’t remember going on any holiday since the advent of this Administration.

You also asked me some question on Judge Khumalo, the matter really relates to emergency applications. Emergency applications are not going to stop because they are necessitated by the response to crime. And when some of these criminal activities are happening it will require the law enforcement agencies to do work and do whatever monitoring as they work, and of course all the emergency applications, they have to go back to the judge who will see whether they were necessary. If they were not necessary the judge always stops them and if the judge stops them, all the agencies stop that monitoring. So there is no really massive abuse of the system as far as we know but the law enforcement agencies, they are really confronted by criminals, organised criminals who continue their activities. Who won’t wait for the availability of the judicial officers who authorise these things, but I assure the public that there is no abuse of the system. The law enforcement agencies whether its intelligence or police they always go back to the judge within the prescribed period and I am not aware of any missing ones. Yes there have been changes of the judges who are given these responsibilities but at no stage did Minister Radebe not ever appoint a judge who is responsible for this. I think I have answered all the questions. Thank you Chairperson.

Minister Nathi Mthetwa: I think the first point has been covered; safe to say that in the process of those emergency applications there is any proof of abuse people would face the might of the law. But as Minister has said there would always be such emergencies. The issue about the toddler and gangsters, you would know that we have concentrated particularly on this matter in this province in particular and we have seen in our experience that when there has been a clampdown to gangs in particular and drugs lords in particular, there is a fight for turf. You talk about what has happened in the past year in Lavender Hills and so on and the programme Operation Combat of the province here has been able to deal with some of these fighting in these areas. Precisely because if you go to these particular communities we are seeing an increase in involvement in different structures in working with Government in its multi-disciplinary approach. We were here last year with the Mayor of this very City working together even though we didn’t have much cooperation from the point of view of the provincial government. But in this City there has been some showing that it is important that we work together to ensure that we deal with the issues of gangs in this province which is one of the feature (unclear) of the province. And this thing has been here for a very long time and our working together will determine how we actually deal with it. Because matters related to drugs and gangsters do need multi-disciplinary approach. They are not exclusively security matters, they are matters which have to do with the responsibility of all of us as parents for instance to those young kids in Manenberg, in all these other areas, Gugulethu and so, Mitchells Plain, where you have 8 year olds, 9 year olds being encouraged not to go to school. Being recruited particularly to belong to gangs as it were. So it is our responsibility, there you don’t need to send in troops, soldiers, you need to be working in a coordinated fashion at all levels of Government, in all departments concerned to ensure that you deal with the issue and the scourge of drugs in particular.

Journalist: Mine is directed to Minister Radebe. In your statement you mention that the Office of the Public Protector has been strengthened and some institutions have been mentioned there. What does that mean, does that mean the office will be working with these institutions?

Journalist:I was just wondering if we have an Election Security Plan in place already and do you see service delivery protests as a threat to those elections. And I just wanted the Minister of Police’s thoughts on the recent cases of police brutality in Gauteng and the Western Cape, the cellphone footage of police beating a man. Then I just wanted some comment from some of the Ministers here on Mario Ambrosini’s call for medical marijuana to be legalised. Thereare thoughts from the Medical Research Council that it’s also a gateway drug, I just wanted to know what you thought about that.

Journalist: Minister Radebe mentioned the judiciary, just on that topic, advocate Dumisa Ntsebeza has gone on record to say that (unclear) unhappiness about the lack of legal briefs from the State for black attorneys or lawyers or advocates and women. Has that matter specifically come under consideration from the Justice Ministry or don’t you see it as critical in terms of transforming the judiciary?

Journalist: I just wanted to double check with Minister Cwele as you are sitting here today you are confidently able to say that those people identified in the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence Report who have for example put in an expense claims for their private expenses via the department etc. You are sitting here today confidently to say that those individuals have been disciplined, just a follow up on that. To the Minister of Police pleas3, if I remember one of the earlier briefings we had, and I may go back as far as late last year, sorry about not being able to give a correct date. You did mention that your Department would bring an Amendment Legislation to revoke, amend fundamentally or alter the National Key Points Act. We were informed that the at the time that there would be a role out of public hearings in the beginning of this year, we are now looking at the middle of March. What has happened to that process, what are the reasons for the delay to that process? If I may to Minister Jeff Radebe, in terms of some of the judicial reforms and moves towards ensuring judicial independence one of the tricky bits seems to remain the funding of the Office of the Chief Justice as the Head of the Judiciary. I understand there is, I guess when it comes to money everybody is always unhappy about what they get. But there are serious concerns raised within the Judiciary and within legal circles that the money that is being made available via the Justice Department simply is not enough to ensure some of the steps that need to be taken if the Chief Justice and his office is indeed going to fulfil the role that he has been given with both the ConstitutionalAmendment17 Act and the Superior Courts Bill. Any comments?

Journalist: Minister maybe my question wasn’t put very clearly, but I don’t think you answered it. The question was very specific, does South Africa have any concrete evidence against the Rwandans and if this is the case what is the nature of this evidence. Also why didn’t you arrest the guys given the fact that you had tract them, or the actual perpetrators? And thirdly if this is the case, there has already been there expulsion, how does South Africa view what is in essence what some people are terming kind of like death squads operating on our sovereign soil. Is the viewpoint that possibly this is a, for lack of a better term, can it be viewed as an act of aggression on the side of Rwanda. And the fourth question if you would permit me sir, what implications does this have, how does this what has happened now change the real life scenario in the DRC. Is Rwanda viewed now as an aggressor within the DRC process, specifically within the peace process in the DRC given the fact that they have been fingered by the UN and stuff like that South Africa is involved there in peacekeeping missions?

Journalist: I would just like to find out what has happened to the review of the courts that was contract given to one of the universities, where is that and when will we see it.

Minister Jeff Radebe: We continue to support and strengthen institutions that support our constitutional democracy, the famous Chapter 9 Institutions including the Public Protector. If you look at our budget you will see that over the years the increase especially to the public protector is rising in real terms, so that’s what we mean when we are saying we are strengthening these institutions, that is steaming ahead unabated.

On the issue of the transformation of the Judiciary legal breaks, my colleague in the JCI Ntsebeza, contrary to popular perception the State legal services actually provide a lot of breaks to previously disadvantage legal practitioners, statistics are there to see. More than 65% of the work we (unclear) out to previously disadvantage individuals. What I think the debate needs to do because the State on its own will not be able to succeed in promoting all black practitioners. There is equally a lot of money in the private sector so we need to see a lot of work being (unclear) out to black practitioners by the private sector itself, so that is the challenge that face our people. Before Parliament I think we have already adopted they State Attorneys Act, that is another further step of revolutionising the State Legal Services Programme so that we can ensure that instead of having various State attorneys there can be one man or woman to shoot his or her head in order to ensure that we propel this transformation of legal services. I already indicated that in Parliament this afternoon the Legal Practice Bill, hopefully it will be passed by the National Assembly after being referred to it by the NCOP. So all these measures commutatively could  go a long way in ensuring that we not only financially assist black practitioners but also the legal practitioners to be profoundly use as a pool from which we can be able to appoint future judges. 

Funding of the Office of the Chief Justice, there is funding that is being provided to the Office of the Chief Justice. Let me add as well that it is not going to be a big bang; it’s a process of transferring those activities that are best suited to be done by the Judiciary in administering their own affairs. You would recall that the President in 2009 signed a proclamation creating the office of the Chief Justice. We have been working with the Chief Justice and the head of courts in order to ensure that the time will come sooner rather than later. We are at the moment busy discussing with the Office of the Chief Justice and the Judiciary as a whole about the model that will be best suited for our form of constitutional democracy. So that programme is steaming ahead uninterruptedly. We have evidence, I have answered the question that they have violate Section 41 of the Vienna Convention as well as Article 9 of the Diplomatic Immunities and Privileges Act, there is evidence. Why we didn’t arrest them, in terms of this convention they are covered, the better word, they are clothed, they are privileged, you can’t arrest them. It’s a diplomatic thing, we didn’t create it, when we were born it was there. It happens around the world so we can just declare them persona non grata, that is precisely what we have done.

Act of aggression, I think that is a very strong language to use. As I have answered that there are still diplomatic relations between Rwanda and South Africa. Our Ambassador is still accredited in Kigale, their Ambassador is still accredited here in Pretoria. What has happened is individuals from Rwanda and one from Burundi were involved in these illegal activities of which we are bound by our constitution and the law to take stand action against them. So whoever they are we are going to track them using all the processes that we have in mind.

The review is steaming ahead, we did appoint last year, I think it was Forte Hare University and others, I haven’t received a report of late but I do know that they are working very hard. I once went there, I think it was in November at Forte Hare to deliver a lecture there but they did indicate that there is progress. So I am sure I am going to hear what is happening there. That leaves Minister Mthetwa to deal with the election security strategy and plan, the police brutality.

On ganja, I think the President answered the question when he was responding to the debate that was started by the Honourable Ambrosini that he has instructed the Minister of Health to process this matter. So I think let’s wait for Minister Motsoaledi to go ahead with that. Minister Cwele on the issues on expenses that are being used for private use, whether action is being taken. Minister Mthetwa on the National Key Points Act, and I think that will be it.

Minister Nathi Mthetwa: The Election Plan started some time ago, (unclear) starting with the registration. The interaction which has been there between the JCPS Cluster and IEC, particularly on our side, those interactions were meant to firm up the plan. So the plan has been rolled out as you would recall during the registration period, it continues even now. That will include even the visit we normally make because we normally do undertake during this period. We have profiled hotspots on the country, we know where hotspots are and we will be in time visiting as well those areas. Brutality, there are no people who are trained, or police officers who are trained to treat people in that way, brutalise people and all those things. That is why we have oversight structures like IPID to precisely deal with those elements who are doing that which is not in the training book in the process of them training and there have been statements made to that effect. Besides statements there have been swift moves particularly from IPID, I heard about people being arrested or police officers from the Executive Director of IPID Robert McBride. That process will continue precisely because we believe that police officers must be allowed to do their job and do it properly. But the elements who go out of their way and do things which are in contrast of law, in contrast with their training will definitely face the might of the law trough such structures as the IPID and so on.

The National Key Point as you know, there was a task team I established last year and it did its work, it came back reported. The process will go on, all the processes; I mean to follow all the processes to Cabinet and so on. There is a firm policy position now which is going to be discussed and taken out to the public for people to engage in, so that we strengthen the National Key Point. Those areas which are not in consonant with the Constitution are taken out but ensure that we have it in a proper context as you have it all over the world. Given different names but at the end of the day the process is on and I am sure the new Administration would be one of its first pieces of legislations and amendments which are going to be made. Thank you

Minister Siyabonga Cwele: Maybe let me speak generally about how deal with cases of abusers for our State resources as State Security. Disciplinary cases are always held and the Department always strive to finalize them in time and they do take actions. People are given also processes of appeal but I can tell you those who have been involved in the cases of abuse of State resources in almost 100% of them they never succeed even their appeal and they are removed from the agency. But if I am reading you correctly, the issues which were reported on the JCI they don’t necessarily pertain to the State Security Agency. The JCI oversees maybe other agencies including Prime Intelligence, Defence Intelligence and our agencies. If I remember very well some of those cases you may be talking about when I was speculating they were going through some legal processes and we will be able to engage specifically on what case you are specifically mentioning but I thought I should answer you broadly. Not only in the State Security Agencies but in the whole cluster the attitude, if you abuse State resources you are given swift justice, you go through disciplinary processes and we remove, that was one of the key priorities in 2009/2010 that we had to start cleaning ourselves. Because if we have to clean the rest of Government we must start with ourselves. So that is what drives us as a cluster.

Minister Radebe there was a question around the impact of strengthening of the institutions such as the Public Protector. Oh you did. Thank you. Shall we take the last round?

Journalist: My question is directed to Minister Ndebele on the issue of medical parole. Can you bring us up to speed what is the situation with regard to medical parole? A week or so ago some of your senior officials told the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services that there were dozens of inmates who died while awaiting the outcome of their medical parole applications. That has given rise to certain perception that medical parole is reserved for certain people who are political connected. Just tell us what is the latest with the issue of medical parole, what are the guidelines. And lastly those people who were released on medic al parole in terms of the new guidelines and who seem to have miraculously recovered, can they be brought back to prison?

Journalist: Minister Radebe, Traditional Courts Bill has lapsed in Parliament, does your Department intend on reinstating it and if so will it be amended version addressing the concerns of civil society and the provinces or will it be the same version.

Journalist: Going back to what you just said Minister Radebe, the big issue with superior courts and 17^th amendment, from the very first draft was the independence of the judiciary and the fact  that the original drafts of the law saw a role for Government to administer the courts. Are you saying that you still believe that? A second one, how would you feel if the Democratic Alliance put on their electoral list the number of people who were associated with corrupt activities and then they claim that they are tough on corruption as you do?

Journalist: I just wanted to follow up my colleague’s question from Reuters, you mention these individuals that have been asked to leave South Africa, you mentioned some articles that they were asked to leave under. Does that mean that its evidence directly connected with the murder of the dissident on New Year’s Day and the raid of the house of another dissident last week? And also do you believe that they were acting independently from their governments?

Minister Jeff Radebe: I don’t know how many times should we answer this question. The mere fact that we have asked them to leave persona non grata, that is precisely what it means, we have evidence that is why they have left. Not that they are leaving, they have left, they are back in their country so there is nothing more to add to that. I’m sure as the investigation proceeds in these illegal activities that some of the people are involved in the evidence will indicate where the source of this thing is but right now we can’t say anything more than that. On the issue, I can’t answer about the DA (Democratic Alliance) this is a forum of the JCPS but with my hat of ANC we can be able to engage with the Business Day on what you are saying.

It is not a question of believe, it is what it is right. The legislators are responsible for their own administration, the executive, so must be the judiciary. What is not being highlighted in the debate is that it was Government itself that initiated this programme as I highlighted earlier on. It was President Zuma; he is the first President since 1994 who have taken a concrete step towards ensuring that the judiciary administers their own affairs. So that is a fact that can never be disputed. That is why there is now an Office of the Chief Justice, there is a Superior Courts Act, there is a Constitution 17^th Amendment Act. There is a model that we are working with the Office of the Chief Justice in order to ensure that we arrive at an appropriate model that is suited to our form of constitutional democracy, so that is going ahead unabated.

On the Traditional Courts Bill, the Bill as we all know has lapsed but it is going to be revived. A strange thing happen at the NCOP, I don’t know how it arose where they debated a bill that was drafted in 2008, not the Bill that was amended and put into the National Assembly. The fact of the matter is contrary to popular perception again the Traditional Courts Bill does not seek to establish traditional courts in the Republic of South Africa. Those traditional courts exist as we speak but they exist and operate under an apartheid era legislation called the Black Administration Act of 1927. What this Traditional Courts Bill seeks to achieve is to bring these traditional courts in line with our constitution and the law. Customary Law is recognised in our constitution and the Traditional, the institution of Traditional Leadership is part of our constitution, it is part of our lives, we can never wish them away. So I do hope sooner rather than later these Traditional Courts Bill that is suited to our constitution will be passed by Parliament because, how many years since 1927, it is more than 80 years. That is the law that is applicable to Traditional Courts so we need to put them in line with our constitution, put them in line and all the issues that have been raised which I feel have been addressed by the amendments which were initiated by the public hearings and so on and so forth. So that is all, it’s about traditional courts;it’s not like creating a new phenomenon that is inimical to our constitution and the law. Minister Ndebele paroles.

Minister S’bu Ndebele: This is becoming a traditional question, but thank you very much. Thank you for asking that question because it allows us to explain it over and over again. 2009 when we came in there was no Medical Parole Board, a person would be recommended by a doctor and it would be a very semi subjective matter and then they are released that way. A person like Mr Schabir Shaik and so forth happened during that time and afterwards we saw the holes, that there were too many gaps, we needed to professionalise the release of somebody. If somebody has been sentenced by a court you are removed from society and the court says you must be taken away. All of us need to honour that and that is where the State would rely on that if you do something wrong you would pay for it. The only way that you can be released from prison is because there is general amnesty that any president gives or on medical grounds. Those medical grounds are no longer subjectively decided on, certainly not by the officials of the Correctional Service but by a panel of 11 doctors. If a doctor 6 doctors were to write falsely that you are sick they will be risking. For a person who had committed offence, who is a criminal and you falsely say he is sick and must be boarded on medical grounds. Just imagine that doctor who will put their career in that way. That is why in front of this media panel we brought all 11 doctors who constitute the Medical Parole Board to explain how they arrive at that decision and they went on a specific case of Mr Jackie Selebi and even went beyond the professional bounds to explain in detail why they decided that way. The law then requires that once the doctors have said that a panel of 11 doctors I am not in a position to then say notwithstanding what we have said I don’t like this person, I am going to keep them inside, that is what has happened. And people do die in South Africa in the world whether they are in prison or not. So we should not expect that once a court sentences somebody to prison they shall not die, people do die. They see every inmate of the 155 inmates, they see a doctor a nurse everyday which is more than what society is exposed to and a professional nurse will then recommend that person to see a doctor and a specialist and so forth. There is no guarantee that the person will not die. The case for instance of Mr Jackie Selebi has been explained over and over again that you are so boarded that person goes through dialysis every 3 days, it takes about 4 hours per that day. It is quite a painful process where they take one set of blood and put another. If you can go and observe it you will see how painful it is and that is what he is going through, and he is going throughout his life. Even if he was inside, he will be in a medical hospital, not just in a hospital he will be in a medical hospital anyway. So that is what the Medical Parole Board recommended and they stand by that decision and they were able to answer before the panel of the media to answer how they arrived at that decision, and that has been the case. Other people see doctors every day, they see the medical people in hospital every day and they are recommended to see a doctor and if necessary they see a specialist and that is what happens throughout. So it is not a special case of any particular person, I think all of us should put this matter to rest and all of us are free to go and examine that. We can bring the Medical Parole Board again, these are professional doctors to explain how they arrived at that particular decision and it is not the only decision. Since then some 23 people have died in our facilities, they continue to die, they continue to be healed. We have gone further to get a partnership with the Department of Health where we screen every inmate who comes in and those who are inside for TB. We do that every time and the TB screening is now funded by the World Health Organisation so that through an inmate who are able to reach out to a family as well to see whether they got the TB inside or outside and so forth. So that is the process, that is the standard of health that we provide and the advice that we reach after the professional  advice of the Medical Parole Board and the Act specify that I cannot overrule that.

END OF MEDIA BRIEFING