Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 29 Nov 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
WEDNESDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF THE NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVIINCES
Watch here: Plenary
The Council met at 14:08.
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
ANNOUNCEMENTS
(Procedures and processes of Council Sitting)
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, allow me at this point to indicate that Rules and processes do apply for this hybrid sitting. Before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular subrules 21, 22 and 23 of Rule 103 which provides as follows.
The hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces. The delegates in the hybrid sitting
enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in the sitting of the National Council of Provinces. For the purposes of the quorum, all delegates who are logged on the virtual platform shall be considered present. Delegates must switch off their video if they want to speak. The delegates who experience connectivity issues are encouraged to use the still photograph for identification on the virtual platform as has been the practice. Delegates on the virtual platform are encouraged to log on with one device only as logging with two or more devices further lowers the bandwidth. Delegates should ensure that the microphones on their gadgets are muted and must always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak. All delegates in the Chamber must insert their cards to register on the Chamber system. Delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones. All delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room.
In addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active. Permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and the SA Local Government Association, Salga, representatives on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on their electronic devices are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. Permanent
delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation instruments on their desk to access the interpretation facility.
Hon delegates, before we proceed, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome permanent delegates, MECs, all special delegates and Salga representatives to the House.
We will now move on to motions, and we start with notices of motions and thereafter we move on to motions without notice.
NOTICES OF MOTION
Ms M L MOSHODI: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council debates speeding up urgent interven tion aimed at addressing the backlog and conjuctions at the South African ports to ensure they are in line with the global practices.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council debates the development of harsh strict measures to combat the growing kidnapping for ransom tendencies in South Africa.
Mr I NTSUBE: Chairperson, I hereby give notice that on the next sitting day of the Council I shall move on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council debates strengthening of interventions geared at mobilising men to be the role models and be at the forefront of the struggle against gender-based violence.
TEENAGE GIRL IN HANDS OF CRIMINALS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N NDONGENI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the Council—
(1) notes with great shock the news of a 19-year-old pupil who was kidnapped, held captive and raped by three men in the Vhembe District in Limpopo;
(2) also notes that the pupil left home to buy groceries when a grey VW Polo with four male occupants stopped next to her and the driver grabbed her, covered her mouth and forced her into the vehicle;
(3) further notes that the driver took the pupil to different places where she was repeatedly raped, first by the driver and then two other men for three days before she was dropped at the local sports ground;
(4) takes this opportunity to condemn this heinous and violent crime, which takes place at the start of the
16 Days of Activism for no violence against Women and Children; and
(5) calls upon law enforcement agencies to leave no stone unturned in ensuring that perpetrators of gender-based violence are brought to book.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CALL FOR DISOLLUTION OF ETHEKWINI COUNCIL
(Draft Resolution)
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that large parts of eThekwini metro continue to suffer regular water shortages in particular the northern areas of Inanda, KwaMashu, Phoenix, Tongaat and Verulam, Cornubia, uMhlanga and Durban north;
(2) further notes that ongoing water outages are having a serious effect on the quality of life for residents who must also put up with ANC’s orchestrated loadshedding;
(3) realises that the long-suffering and hard-working DA councillors in these areas work, day and night trying to assist residents with little or no help from eThekwini officials;
(4) understands that during this time of crisis, the municipal manager who earns approximately R4 million per annum and his head of water services are overseas on junkets;
(5) also notes that the DA, under the leadership of provincial leader Francois Rogers, Member of Provincial Legislature, MPL, and constituency head, Bradley Singh, MPL, this week, handed over a memorandum of demands to eThekwini’s mayor office giving Mayor Kaunda seven days to outline how the current situation will be turned around;
(6) also understands the Department of Cooperative
Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, Member of Executive Council, MEC, Sithole-Moloi is sitting on her hands while the elderly are forced to carry buckets of water from water tankers, while mothers of small children go days and even weeks without water;
(7) further understands that KwaZulu-Natal, KZN’s fragile tourism sector in the metro collapses as more jobs are lost and people become even poorer;
(8) sees despite calls on the CoGTA MEC, Sithole-Moloi to respond to the calls of Martin Mayer MPL, to rediscover the oath she took to serve and to take a more proactive approach, no discernible action has been forthcoming;
(9) further acknowledges that the DA in a bold position that shows true grit and commitment of our councillors, and having exhausted all other available avenues for relief, will now move for eThekwini Council to be dissolved in terms of section 34 of the Municipal Structures Act; and
(10) challenges that ANC in eThekwini Metro and the KZN and provincial legislature to support this initiative, as the DA leads and strives to the work of the responsible and caring government.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: The motion without notice is not agreed to and becomes a notice of a motion.
TRAGEDY AT SOUTH AFRICAN IMPALA PLATINUM MINE
(Draft Resolution)
Ms L C BEBEE: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes with great sadness the untimely death of eleven workers at the South African Impala Platinum Mine in Rustenburg, on Monday, 27 November 2023;
(2) also notes that 75 workers were injured after a lift bringing the workers back to the surface dropped about
200 meters;
(3) believes that the safety of workers and working conditions underground are paramount and
non-negotiable;
(4) calls for the investigation of this devastating accident in order to improve safety standards in the mines; and
(5) conveys our heartfelt condolences to the families, relatives and fellow workers of the deceased and wishes the injured workers a speedy recovery.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
A DECREASE IN THE PREVALENCE OF THE HIV
(Draft Resolution)
Ms N E NKOSI: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes the results of a survey that shows a decrease in the prevalence of the human immunodeficiency virus, HIV, people living with HIV syndrome;
(2) also notes that the survey was released on Monday,
27 November 2023 by the Human Sciences Research Council;
(3) further notes that the survey shows that the percentage of people living with the HIV in South Africa has decreased from 14% in 2017 to 12,7% in 2022;
(4) understands that currently there are about
7,8 million people living with HIV in South Africa in 2022 compared to 7,9 million in 2017, according to the survey;
(5) applauds the strides the country has undertaken in ensuring there is steady progress in the battle towards ending HIV in South Africa as highlighted by the survey; and
(6) calls upon South Africans not to lower their gauntlets because of this survey but to continue to get tested for HIV so they know their status and those who need treatment get it sooner.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
HARSHEST SENTENCE ON POLICE KILLINGS
(Draft Resolution)
Ms A D MALEKA: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes that according to media reports, ten or more police officers have been killed in South Africa every month since April 2023;
(2) also notes that over the last weekend, two police officers who were killed on duty were buried;
(3) reaffirms the statement made in this House that, the killing of police officers does not only undermine the state security, but have the dual effect of eroding the morale of the police officers and undermines state authority; and
(4) urges this august House to call upon the judiciary to meet out the harshest possible sentence for those found guilty of these heinous crimes.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
A CALL TO ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING CAUSES OF WATER POLLUTION
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) notes the alarming presence of a potentially lethal algae bloom in the Vaal River system, particularly in the Barkly-West area, as recently highlighted by the Department of Water and Sanitation;
(2) recognises the urgency of the matter, given the department’s explicit warning issued to all water users, municipalities, communities, and farmers along the Vaal River, especially in the Barkly-West and Windsorton areas in the Dikgatlong Municipality, advising against the consumption of raw water directly from the river;
(3) acknowledges that the current water crisis is exacerbated by extreme temperatures in the Northern Cape, coupled with escalating water shortages across municipalities in the province;
(4) recalls that this concern is not new, as the DA had alerted Minister Senzo Mchunu two weeks ago to the potential hazards of the water crisis in Barkly-West, including reports of discoloured and odorous water, as well as a tragic case of severe diarrhoea believed to be linked to contaminated water resulting in a loss of life;
(5) expresses grave concern about the municipality's capacity to address these issues given months of unresolved infrastructure-related water problems; and
(6) calls for a comprehensive response from the Minister of Water and Sanitation, the deployment of water specialists, detailing the department’s action plan to mitigate the algae bloom’s impact on the Vaal River system and addressing the underlying causes of pollution.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
PROMPT RESPONSE TO DISASTER CUASED BY STORMS
(Draft Resolution)
Mr F J BADENHORST: Chairperson, I move without notice:
That the House-
(1) congratulates the Overstrand Mayor Annelie Rabie and her team for their Disaster Response amidst damage caused by the worst storms in the history of the Overstrand Municipality;
(2) notes that temporary water distribution to affected residents was repaired with three days after the floods, including repair of water supply to Kleinmond via Palmiet which was completed within 48 hours;
(3) also notes that the Stanford Bridge was opened for traffic within three days after the floods cut Stanford off from the outside world;
(4) acknowledges that with the assistance of the City of Cape Town, George, Mossel Bay Municipalities, and corporates, 81 Jo-Jo tanks with water were provided,
ensuring that all residents had access to drinking water for more than a few hours per day; and
(5) further acknowledges that the Western Cape
Departments of the Department of Cooperative Governance and Traditional Affairs, CoGTA, and Infrastructure under the leadership of Ministers Anto Bredell and Tertius Simmers played a vital role in ensuring disaster management response and infrastructure repair to ensure stability.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I move without notice, on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
1) notes that Plettenberg Bay received eight international blue flag awards for 2023-24 at the Wildlife and Environment Society of South Africa, Wessa, Blue Flag and Green Coast Awards;
2) also notes that the blue flag status is one of the world’s most distinguished voluntary eco-labels awarded to beaches, marinas, and sustainable boating tourism operators;
3) further notes that this is a first for Plett; whilst Nature’s Valley received a Green Coast Award at the same ceremony;
4) notes that the full blue flag status has been awarded to the following six beaches namely Robberg 5, The Waves, Nature’s Valley, Lookout, The Dunes and Singing Kettle;
5) also notes that seal swimming operator, Offshore Adventures, has received two full blue flags for its two boats; and
6) congratulates all the key role players in Plett who are demonstrating a continued commitment to sustainable tourism that contributed to the local economy, activists and all conservation initiatives.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms L N MOSS: I move without notice, on behalf of the ANC:
That the House-
1) notes with concern the alleged unethical criminal conduct by some sections of the banks in South Africa and international regarding the manipulation of currency;
2) believes that this is inflicted of untold suffering from our people, the poorest of the poor, in particular due to inflation associated with this manipulation and undermine the economy of the state;
3) therefore, calls upon this House to join the Minister in the Presidency, the hon in categorising this as the. collusion in the act of collapsing the state; and
4) calls for a high level multi agency investigation to establish diversity and the full extent of alleged manipulation as a matter of urgency, in addition to the initial work by the Competition Commission.
Motion objected to and will become a Notice of Motion.
Mr E Z NJADU: I move without notice, on behalf of the ANC:
That the Council-
1) notes the official opening of the Dr Pixley Ka Isaka Seme Memorial Hospital in Kwa-Mashu, in KwaZulu-Natal, on Friday, 24 November 2023;
2) also notes that the hospital has been built as a result of the growing healthcare needs of approximately 1.5 million residents of Kwa-Mashu, Inanda, Ntuzuma and the surrounding communities in northern Durban;
3) further notes that its existence will assist a great deal in lessening the pressure on the Mahatma Gandhi Memorial Hospital and Addington Hospital;
4) also notes that the hospital boasts of and provides an impressive range of services including critical care, physiotherapy, occupational therapy, psychological services, audiology, and social work amongst others;
5) further notes that the hospital has a strong academic and research component and is one of the centres for
postgraduate medical training, as well as providing rotation for final year medical students from the University of KwaZulu-Natal; and
6) commends the government and all stakeholders who were part of this project for their unwavering commitment to provide and improve the quality of healthcare services to the population of KwaZulu- Natal, especially to the most vulnerable sectors in society namely women, children and the elderly.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: I move without notice, on behalf of the EFF:
That the Council
1) notes the racism utterances made by a worse whole when foster pupil in Zanin, Limpopo Province, notes that the utterances are disgusting, but actually not surprising. Coming from that school and that's part of town;
2) further notes that racism is thriving in this country because the ruling elites feel ashamed to denounce racism actions;
3) also notes that the EFF will never be ashamed to denounce such actions publicly; and
4) acknowledges that under the EFF-led government, there will never be such utterances, and such utterances will be punishable.
Motion objected to and will become a Notice of Motion.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: moved without notice, on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1) notes the dire state of beach facilities in the eThekwini Metro in the run up to the festive season;
(2) also notes that oversight visits by the DA, led by Cllr Gavin Hegter, to beaches all along the metro’s 100 km coastline have revealed derelict lifeguard stations to
vandalized ablution facilities that have not been maintained for years;
(3) further notes that paddling pools along the central beaches are still standing empty due to pumps not being replaced which results in an increased number of children using the crowded surf zone;
(4) notes that the DA in eThekwini has revealed that the cleaning contract, mainly for litter picking along the central beachfront, has come to an end;
(5) also notes the alarming independent water sampling results released by test laboratory, Talbot, recently indicating exceptionally high e-coli readings along all the central beaches, a clear indication that the metro still has extremely high levels of sewer effluent entering our coastal waters;
(6) further notes that the factors above actively destroy the prospects of attracting much needed tourism income to the economy of KZN; and
(7) calls on Mayor Kaunda and the well-paid City Manager to act urgently to not only protect our residents and visitors but to save the livelihoods of all who live off the benefits of tourism.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DA’S CONCERN OVER SEVERE WATER CRISIS IN KIMBERLEY IN THE SOL PLAATJE MUNICIPALITY
(Draft Resolution)
Ms D C CHRISTIANS: Chairperson, I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1) notes the ongoing and severe water crisis affecting the residents of Kimberley in the Sol Plaatje Municipality;
(2) draws attention to the fact that vital water infrastructure has collapsed, leaving tens of
thousands of Kimberly residents without access to any water;
(3) expresses its grave concern over the prolonged and recurring water crisis in Kimberly’s Sol Plaatje Municipality;
(4) also notes also that the DA had previously warned the municipality in 2012 of the potential collapse in the water grid;
(5) further notes that in 2021 the SA Human Rights Commission received complaints and initiated an investigation into the water shortages;
(6) expresses concern that the investigations has not yielded any substantial result;
(7) calls on this House for an urgent meeting with the Sol Plaatje municipal manager to seek clarification on the true extent of the water crisis;
(8) also request the presentation of a comprehensive action plan outlining both immediate and long-term solutions to the water crisis; and
(9) also urges the SA Human Rights Commission to expedite its investigation into the water shortages to ensure a swift and thorough inquiry that protects the rights of all residents in the Sol Plaatje Municipality.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, hon Christians. Is there any objection to the motion? [Interjections.] There being an objection, the motion will not be preceded with and will become a notice of a motion. Hon Labuschagne?
BITOU MUNICIPALITY COUNCIL’S PLETT SHARK SPOTTERS SAFETY PROGRAMME APPLAUDED
(Draft Resolution)
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I hereby move without notice on behalf of the DA:
That the Council-
(1) notes that the Bitou Municipality Council entered into a memorandum of understanding with the NGO, Plett Shark Spotters, to contribute an amount of R800 000 towards the employment costs of 14 Plett Shark Spotters on an annual basis for the next three years;
(2) further notes that in November 2022, the Plett Shark Spotters was established through a partnership with the Bitou Municipality, Plett Shark Action Group and the Cape Town Shark Spotters;
(3) also notes that the International Union for Conservation of Nature, IUCN, and natural resources has released by commission statement on shark bite mitigations in which they do not recommend that people use lethal control anymore and that they work towards sustainable methods;
(4) acknowledges that this partnership in funding shows that Plettenberg has joined world leaders in
sustainable shark safety, as per the IUCN directives;
(5) further acknowledges that these shark spotters have been successfully recording shark sightings and have been well integrated into existing beach safety programmes, co-operating with the municipal beach control, life savers and the National Human Rights Institutions, NHRIs; and
(6) recognises this safety programme in Bitou surely encourages bathers and anyone making use of the beaches, including tourists, to feel more protected and safer.
Motion agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, that takes us to the next matter. And that matter in relation to announcing referral Third Order on the Order Paper. And I’ve been informed that the Whippery have agreed that the Third Order on the Order Paper be deferred until further notice. We will
therefore proceed to the motion on the Order Paper as amended. I call on the Chief Whip to table the motion.
SUSPENSION OF DRAFT RULE 218(1)
(Draft Resolution)
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): Thank you very much, Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces. First of all, I want to confirm that the Consideration of the National Health Insurance Bill, B11 of 2019, be deferred to 6 December next week on Wednesday and it be dealt with on 6 December. So, the motion is amended as such. So, shall I proceed that the Council resolves that Rule 218(1), which provides, inter alia, that the consideration of the Bill may not commence before at least three working days have lapsed since the committee’s report was tabled, be suspended for purposes of consideration of Division Of Revenue Amendment Bill, Bill 33 of 2023 deferred to the National Council of Provinces by the National Assembly.
Question put: That the motion, as amended, be agreed to.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Before we proceed, we will now move on to declarations. In terms of Rule 86 by provinces, the first province to be allowed to make declaration is the Western Cape. Hon Labuschagne?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I would like to make a declaration on Rule 218, not the first one.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please repeat that again.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: I would like to make a declaration on Rule
218 on the Division of Revenue Amendment, Dora, Bill, not the deferral of the National Health Insurance, NHI, Bill.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members ...
Ms M O MOKAUSE: What’s happening? You’re confused again! You cannot make a declaration on something which is deferred. Read and know your Rules. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. I am advised, hon members that that declaration by the hon Labuschagne will come when we vote for the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. So, we will wait for that moment. Thank you
very much. Because there are no declarations, I will now call upon provinces to cast their votes and heads of delegations must indicate whether they are voting in favour, against or abstain. [Interjections.] Hon Ryder, on what point are you rising?
Mr D R RYDER: Thank you, Chair. I am sorry, I believe that there is some confusion that just happened and I need to clarify quite carefully. The Chief Whip mentioned the deferral of the NHI Bill, which I think it’s what caused the confusion. He then spoke about the waving of the three-day rule on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill and it’s what you are asking for declarations on, I believe. Could you clarify that, please Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder, why don’t we do it this way - I have already indicated when this matter was read by the hon Aucamp become relevant, and we should stick to that. And I looked in Labuschagne’s direction, and she was very happy with that arrangement. So, why don’t we leave it like that. Thank you very much. We will therefore now proceed to call upon provinces to cast their votes and heads of delegation must indicate whether they are voting in favour, against or abstain, and we will do so in alphabetical order.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
ABSTAIN: Western Cape.
Motion accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
DIVISION OF REVENUE AMENDMENT BILL OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS THEREON
(Consideration of Bill and Report thereon)
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I rise on a point of order, please.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, what is the point of order?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: The point of order is clarity that the hon Ryder sought on the two motions whilst the Chairperson was making a motion on the NHI Bill and he made a motion on the three-day rule on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I rose and I said I would like to make a declaration on the three-day rule of the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I would like to do the declaration on the motion that state that
we should suspend the three-day rule. There were two motions that the Chief Whip tabled, which is Rule 268 on the deferral of the NHI and Rule 218, on the suspension of the three-day rule on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill. I would like to do a declaration because we also have to decide whether we agree on the motion to suspend the three-day rule.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please assist, Chief Whip. Clarify the confusion. Because I thought that there was an understanding, especially at this point that the motion will then be tabled and that we proceed accordingly. Yes, Chief Whip?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP (Mr S J Mohai): That’s an easy one, Chair. We are applying Rule 218(1) to process a report which a committee has concluded but which has not had so many days that are required before it is tabled. So, we are requesting for the suspension of that Rule. Mme Labuschagne is correct.
She wants to comment on the application of that Rule. We have already agreed that that Rule should be suspended but she wants to make a declaration on the suspension of the Rule. I think that ... [Interjections.] The House has agreed on the matter. Thank you. I thought she is commenting on the Rule.
The declaration has no effect. We have agreed as the House but
she wanted to comment and make a declaration on the application of that Rule. That’s what I thought she wants to do. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, let’s try to do it this way. Hon Labuschagne, would you like to make your comments now.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I just want to clarify what the Chief Whip said now. Nobody in this House agreed ... took a vote on the motion of the suspension of the rule. After the Chief Whip rose and put those two motions to the House, I rose because it was done in one ... I rose because I know that ... will be confusion and I said I want to make a declaration on the motion on Rule 218. Now, the Chief Whip says we agreed on that. We didn’t agree on that because I indicated that I wanted to make a declaration. So, yes, I would like to make that declaration now.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: All they know is objection, objection. That’s all that they know. Look at them. I’m looking at you from above. Look at you. [Interjections.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon members, it does seem as if we are tying ourselves into knots and we really need to avoid that. I asked hon Labuschagne whether she wanted to make a declaration now. I think there’s a bit of confusion there as well. Yes?
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: There’s no confusion there now. Can I make the declaration now, Chair?
Declaration of vote:
Hon Chair, the processing of this Division of Revenue Amendment Bill has been a mad rush, partly due to a misunderstanding of the Money Bills Amendment Procedure and Related Matters Act and its updates, which meant that the committee was working towards a false deadline. In practice, what this meant was that the referral to provinces became a sham ... a box-ticking exercise where insufficient time was given to provinces to perform their responsibilities in terms of the Mandating Procedures of Provinces Act.
To explain this, presentations of the Bill were made to provincial committees late last week, some as late as Friday night. The provincial committees were then expected to present negotiating mandates by Monday morning. This meant that the
finance committees were not given time to consult with other provincial departments that were receiving budget cuts and had to provide a mandate based solely on their own perceptions.
This is not some minor Bill. The Division of Revenue is what gives provinces the money needed to do their work. It’s current iteration has a massive impact on planned projects and programmes, and has a dramatic impact on how provinces and municipalities will deliver services for the remainder of the financial year.
Following the Monday morning negotiating mandate meeting, Treasury indicated that they needed time to respond to the issues raised in the negotiation process. They were given a very tight deadline of 09h00 yesterday morning. They were late, only responding after 10h00. Provinces then had to convene meetings in order to get final mandates based on these responses.
To clarify, 20 pages of technical responses needed to be processed before the select committee met again to consider the final mandates. These timelines did not give ... an opportunity for due process and unfairly prejudiced the provinces by ... affording them ...
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Hon Chair, point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, there is a point of order.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Chairperson, with due respect, we are dealing with procedural matters and not with the substance, because it is coming. It is coming. The chair is going to table that report and declarations are going to be made on that report.
I agree on an issue that was made but it is now delving into the substance of the matter, which undermines the procedures of the House. I thought that we were going to deal with this issue.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: [No audio] ... and that we proceed as requested and indicated. So, the next step is really to look at the report by hon L Moss, the member of the Select Committee on Appropriations.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, I rise on a point of order. There is no way where I address the content of the Bill in this declaration. I address the process of the Three-Day Rule ...
the motion that is under discussion. This is why we have to defer the National Health Insurance, NHI, Bill and why we have this process in terms of the Division of Revenue Bill, because the ANC just makes new rules as we go on. They push through
... and negate the rules of this House, and because of this, this House becomes the joke of the South African Parliament.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. Hon Labuschagne, please take your seat.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: If this is what you want ... If this is what you want ... not following the rules ... I’ve been in this House for 10 years now ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: ... I’ve done many motions on the Three-Day Rule. This is not the first and this is not the last and ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please take your seat. Hon Rayi, your hand is up.
Mr M I RAYI: Chairperson, although hon Labuschagne denies that she is getting into the substance of the issue, in the rules
there is a rule which allows for the suspension of the Three- Day Rule. You can’t argue with that because it is in the rules. You can make a declaration as to why that particular
... [Inaudible.] ... but you can’t then go into the details. Those details should be part of the declaration after the tabling of the report ... that argument she is making.
However, the Three-Day Rule ... [Inaudible.] ... in the rules it serves as 218 and it is accepted. We have been using it all these years when it comes to the Division of Revenue and it has never been made an issue of, even by the Western Cape.
However, today it’s just delaying the progress of this sitting.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: So, hon Labuschagne, I will humbly ask you to take your seat please.
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: If this was discussed in a Whips’ meeting
... to ask for ... then it would be different. Nobody asked for this. It just appeared on the Order Paper. We voted on the deferral of the NHI.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Labuschagne, I’ve asked you to take your seat. We will now proceed, hon members.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Can’t you see hon Ryder’s hand is up, Chair? Can’t you see his hand is up? Open your eyes. Be reasonable. No, you can all go to hell. I don’t care. I really don’t care.
Mr D R RYDER: {Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Let’s proceed. Please take your seat, hon Ryder. Please take your seat. Please take your seat. Please proceed, hon Moss.
Mr D R RYDER: All you are doing is adding fuel to the fire for the case ... [Inaudible.]
Ms L N MOSS: Chairperson ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.]
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, I’m rising on a point of order.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Take your seat.
Ms L N MOSS: Chairperson, delegates ... [Inaudible.]
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Point of order. Point of order, Chairperson. I’m rising on a point of order. [Interjections.] Chairperson, may I be recognised please? I’m rising on a point of order please.
Ms L N MOSS: Today, it is my pleasure to table ...
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, I’m rising on a point of order.
Ms L N MOSS: ... the report on the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill B33 – 2023 on behalf of the Finance Committee of Appropriation ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I’m not allowing you to speak.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Why not, Chairperson? Why not? Why not? I’m rising on a point of order, Chairperson. This cannot continue.
Ms L N MOSS: {Inaudible.]
An HON MEMBER: Stop being so biased.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, my hand is up for a point of order. My hand is up for a point of order. You’ve got to recognise me.
Ms L N MOSS ... [Inaudible.] ... adopted the report while the DA ... [Inaudible.] ... did not ... [Inaudible.] ... the Bill and ... [Inaudible.] ...
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, my hands is up for a point of order. May I be recognised please?
Mr L N MOSS: ... [Inaudible.] ... position. National Treasury briefed the committee, together with the provincial portfolio committees on finance ... Treasury on the Bill on the
16 November 2023.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: It is absolutely ridiculous. May I be recognised, Chairperson?
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: [Inaudible.]
Mr W A S AUCAMP: No, Chairperson, please recognise me first.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moss, just a minute.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: My hand was up before the Chief Whip’s hand, Chair. You must recognise me first.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you ... [Inaudible.]
Mr W A S AUCAMP: You must recognise me before you recognise the Chief Whip.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: Thank you, Chairperson. I will appeal ...
Mr W A S AUCAMP: I cannot believe this.
The CHIEF WHIP OF THE NCOP: ... that hon Aucamp be recognised. The only point I am raising is that there were two members speaking at the same time. I am appealing that hon Moss hold on so as to allow the Chair to recognise hon Aucamp fairly, in order for him to make his point, so that two members do not speak in the House at the same time because it adds to the confusion and it affects all of us. So, I will appeal to the Chair to make his own consideration. However, I believe that hon Aucamp started by raising a hand, which is correct, until of course ... at times he is tempted to say many things before the Chair recognises the hand. So, Chair, I will appeal ...
that it may be considered fairly, and then the House ... proceed very smoothly.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: May I be recognised now, Chair?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you know, we have to run the business of the House in a way that ensures that we really don’t undermine the work of the National Council of Provinces. This whole thing of speaking, even when you have not been recognised, and rambling along and so on, does not serve us very, very well. So, hon Aucamp, on what point do you want to rise?
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, I think I must just throw the Rule Book up in the air because that is what you are doing. With all due respect, my hand was up and hon Ryder’s hand was up. You did not give us a chance. The moment that the Chief Whip from the ANC put his hand up, you immediately gave him a chance. Another rule is that if a member rises on a point of order, the member at the podium must sit down immediately. [Inaudible.]
An HON MEMBER: Raise your point. Raise your point without being angry.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chairperson, what I’m asking you is to just go back to what hon Labuschagne said. She was busy making a declaration. She has three minutes to make that declaration. She was not nearly over the time. She was doing that on a procedural issue and you stopped her. She did not address the issues surrounding the content of the Division of Revenue Bill. She addressed the procedural issue in terms of the timeframes that you wanted to cut. That is her right. She was busy with it. Whether you like what she says or not, you must allow her to complete what she was saying. That is a declaration in which she has three minutes. As the Chairperson, you interrupted her and you should give her ... to complete that procedural issue. Please Chair, in future, if you want to sort out confusion in this House, be fair because you are not fair. You listened immediately ... You gave hon Rayi a chance and you gave the Chief Whip a chance. You did not want to take either hon Ryder’s or my points of order and that shows your bias. In Afrikaans we say ...
Afrikaans:
... jou onderrok hang uit.
English:
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon members, you know, we have a responsibility to conduct ourselves in a particular way. This thing of imposing yourself onto the House and so on can never ever work ... can never ever work. Please allow me to proceed to hon Moss. Please, hon Moss.
Ms L N MOSS: Hon Chairperson, there seems ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder, what is your point of order?
Mr D R RYDER: Chairperson, with due respect, you talk about undermining the House ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: What is the point of order?
Mr D R RYDER: ... it is you who is undermining the House at the moment. I stood earlier and asked for clarity. Instead of giving that clarity, you chose to give me a lecture. Had you given the clarity at the appropriate ... [Inaudible.] [Interjections.] ...
An HON MEMBER: What is your point of order? That is the question.
Mr D R RYDER: ... the issue right up front and we would’ve been able to proceed. The Chief Whip stood on his point of order, silencing the hon Labuschagne. You have not ruled on that. You merely proceeded to cut her off and carry on. Now the process ... and this is what hon Labuschagne was talking about ... the process has been flawed from the start of the process ... [Inaudible.]
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder, you are really busy making a speech.
Mr D R RYDER: ... and you continue with flouting the process, Chair, and you are opening yourself up to a massive challenge. I’m asking, please Chair, go back and do it properly.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please sit down, hon Ryder. Please sit down. Hon Moss, please proceed.
CONSIDERATION OF DIVISION OF REVENUE AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS THEREON
Ms L N MOSS: Hon Chairperson, it is a disgrace that people bring the portfolio committee issues here. That was supposed
to be fought in the committee not here. Hon Chairperson, permanent delegates ... [Interjections.] ...
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Just a minute, hon Moss. You know, hon members, let me first clarify some of the basics. Unless you are pointed out by the presiding officer to speak, you are not allowed to do so. Hon Aucamp, this thing of trying to debate with the presiding officer is really out of order.
I have reached to a point where I am warning you. I am warning you. If you do that again, I am throwing you out of the House.
Mr I NTSUBE: Long live, the Chair!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: If you do it again, I will throw you out. Hon Moss, please, proceed.
Ms L N MOSS: ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr W A S AUCAMP: ... point of order, Chair. Point of order, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Order, hon members.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Am calling on a point of order, Chair.
Ms L N MOSS: ... [Interjections.] ... the committee facilitation on public participation on the Bill ... [Interjections.] ... to publish on the parliamentary website
... [Interjections.] ... and in all media in all official languages ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Chair, we are calling a point of order in terms of the Rules.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Aucamp and hon Boshoff, I am really warning you. Please, proceed, hon Moss.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: We are calling a point of order, Chair. In terms of the Rules we are calling a point of order, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Aucamp and hon Boshoff, I am now ordering you out of the House.
Mr I NTSUBE: Long live, the Chair!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: ... [Interjections.] ... Please, leave ... [Interjections.] ... Please, leave.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I am now ordering you out of the House. Please, leave
Mr W A S AUCAMP: On what Rule? Hon Boshoff had her hand up as a point of order!
Mr I NTSUBE: Do you want to be assisted to go out?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, leave. Leave, leave.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: I can’t wait for next year.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, leave.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: What did hon Boshoff do?
Ms S H BOSHOFF: This is absolutely pathetic.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: What did hon Boshoff do? She had her hand raised on a point of order! The incompetent Chair does not want to listen! You are a disgrace, man!
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, leave, yea.
Mr C F B SMIT: We won’t leave this year, Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Please, leave, yea. Please, leave, Ryder.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: This is ... [Inaudible.] ... pathetic.
Mr C F B SMIT: It has become a banana Republic.
Mr I NTSUBE: Ha! Leave, leave, leave, you can make it an apple Republic.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Moss, please, proceed.
Ms M O MOKAUSE: [You] Wena Ntsube, all you know is objection together with that Nkosi of yours. Look at your equals. You can’t even confront your equals.
Ms L N MOSS: ... [Interjections.] ... the Minister of Finance has gazetted amendments in ... [Interjections.] ... Amendment Bill which proposes a total adjustment of R13,6 billion to fund the two 2023-24 wages agreement increase, the debt service costs and the disaster response funding including the
... [Inaudible.] ... proposed to the framework of the expanded
public works programme integrated for provinces, the ... [Inaudible.] ... recovery grant, and the regional
...[Inaudible.] ... infrastructure grant.
The National Treasury together with the provincial treasuries should within 60 days of the adoption of the report ensure that all provinces develop proper mechanism as required by the section 38 of the Public Finance Management Act. To manage the provincial expenditures and ensure the funds realise for the intended purpose, the Minister of Finance should approve the rollover amount of R300 million for the representative political party fund in line with section 6(4) of the ... [Inaudible.] ... regulations as these funds are meant to assist political parties to prepare for the 2024 elections.
The National Treasury together with the provincial treasuries should within 60 days of the adoption of this report develop specific adequate mechanisms to mitigate the service delivery impact of the provincial and local government conditional grant, reduction for the 2023-24 financial year. The National Treasury together with the provincial treasuries and provincial Department of Education should within 60 days of the adoption of this report develop measures to ensure that
the wage agreement is effectively implemented and funds are utilized for the intended purpose.
Moreover, the committee is of the view that consequence management should be implemented for poor expenditures on critical programmes like early childhood development, National Health Insurance and many other critical programmes instead of taking funds away. The National Treasury together with the Department of Co-operative Governance and Traditional Affairs and its provincial counterparts should within 60 days of the adoption of this report develop clear mechanisms to ensure that political instability to municipalities does not affect administrative functioning, policies execution and basic service delivery.
The National Treasury should within 60 days of the adoption of this report develop clear mechanisms to ensure that movements of funds to unforeseen and unavoidable situations does not affect the approve other plans of key service delivery of departments and ensure that that is done within the parameters of section 43 of the Public Finance Management Act, PFMA. Chairperson, I don’t want to be long. I want to ... [Inaudible.] ... the closing remarks on those issues that we already raised.
The National Treasury together with the Department of Public Enterprises and the Minister for Electricity should within 60 days of the adoption of this report ensure that multiple approach is developed to urgently address the crisis at Eskom and Transnet as these impact on other economic sectors like mining, manufacturing and agriculture and to address the challenges around the Passenger Rail Agency of South Africa, Prasa, and other infrastructure related programmes to stimulate economic growth and address poverty, inequality and unemployment.
In conclusion I want to make these remarks. In conclusion I wish to thank all members; provincial, finance ministry committee members, committee stakeholders, media and the general public, as well as the committee support staff. Thus, the committee recommends to the House that the Bill be adopted without amendments. Thank you very much.
Declaration of votes:
Ms C LABUSCHAGNE: Chair, the division of revenue is the key enabler of government’s three spheres dividing the country's income and making allocations to local government and provincial government. Historically, the adjustment Bill had made some tweaks and amendments to cater for the dynamic
nature of government. But the original budget and medium-term projections have always been respected to allow for reasonable planning to take place in provinces and municipalities.
This is no longer the case, as Treasury has made sweeping changes which massively impact the work of provinces. It makes sense that the centrally decided change in direction should be centrally funded, but the substantially higher than budgeted for public wage settlement, which was agreed to by the national government is not being funded by the adjustment.
While some adjustments to the equitable share have been offered, it is insufficient by almost R1,2 million in the Western Cape alone. That is R1,2 billion that must be taken from the frontline service delivery. Added to that, over R600 million which is being taken away from various conditional grants to the province and the picture for those living in the Western Cape is a grim one.
President Joe Biden, quoting his father last year said, I quote:
“Don't tell me what you value is, show me your budget and I'll tell you what you value is.”
One only has to look at the cuts being foisted on to the provinces to see what the ANC government values. With
R1,6 billion in cuts to the education infrastructure grant and R58 million cut from the health facility revitalisation grant, do you really think this government cares for the sick with almost R1,7 billion cut to the human settlements grant and R476 million cut from the informal settlement upgrade grant, do you think this government cares for the poor? No, they gave themselves and their deployed cadres.
The procedure in passing this adjustment through committees was deeply flawed. We request that this Bill should be referred back to the standing committee to correct their processes. The Western Cape cannot support this Division of Revenue Amendment Bill and is declared a formal intergovernment dispute in terms of Chapter 3 of the Constitution.
Chairperson, then on the previous issue, I just want to say now that everyone has calmed down. Rule 90(1)(b), a draft resolution for approval by the Council, the motion was a draft resolution by the Council. In the Constitution, section 65(b) all questions before the National Council of Provinces are
agreed to in at least five provinces’ vote ... [Inaudible.]
... the question. Thank you, Chair.
Ms M L MAMAREGANE: Hon Chairperson, the ANC supports the adoption of the Division of Revenue Amendment Bill report. We understand the context and the essence of the circumstances under which the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement, MTBPS and Division of Revenue Amendment Bill was presented with heightened global uncertainty and low growth, which has constrained economic growth prompting government to make serious trade off while maintaining the integrity of the state by ensuring core government services are not impacted.
As a consequence, the division of revenue does not propose reduction to the local government equitable share. Overall, the local government conditional grant allocations are set to increase by 7% in the 2024-25 financial year.
The allocation to local government further proposes the total amount of R1,2 billion be added to the Municipal Disaster Recovery Grant to fund the reconstruction and rehabilitation of municipal infrastructure damaged by the floods that occurred between February and March 2023.
Due to these floods, the Municipal Disaster Relief Grant was depleted by June 2023. A proposed total amount of R372 million is added to this grant to enable immediate response by municipalities in the event that a disaster occurs in the remaining months of the 2023-24 financial year.
The provincial equity share received the biggest adjustment with an increase of R17,5 billion to fund the cost of the Public Sector Wage Bill for health at the cost of R6,8 billion and R10,76 billion for education. These are some of the most important services that the vast majority directly benefit from.
This allocation will further assist in assisting to build the capability of the state to provide the necessary services needed for our people. Hon Chairperson, a proposed total amount of R57 million is reprioritised from the school infrastructure backlogs grant to the vote of the National Department of Basic Education.
Of this amount, a proposed total amount of R32 million will fund compensation of employees’ pressures and R25 million will fund information and communication technology upgrades.
As I conclude, the reduction to some programmes is merely temporary as we struggle with a debt problem. These are meant to ensure that we do not lose the essence of what the economic reconstruction and recovery plan envisage. I thank you hon Chairperson.
Mr D R RYDER: Chair, on a point of clarity, please?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Hon Ryder, please spare us the trauma.
Mr D R RYDER: Chair, you cannot pre-empt what I am going to say.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: I obviously don’t know what you are going to say but on what point are you rising?
Mr D R RYDER: On a point of clarity from the speaker’s speech on her declaration. A point of clarity is permitted in terms of the rules Chair. Can the member clarify, is she celebrating the fact that money is being taken from the school backlog’s grant meant to remove pit latrines to be spent on staff salaries? Thank you Chair.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Of course, the hon Ryder, the issue that you are raising is such as a problem with yourself. I think it’s an issue that relates to our own understanding of our rules. It’s a fundamental question because if you don’t understand how rules intends us to operate, then it will be all sorts of things and raise all sorts of issues and so on.
There is nothing in the rules that says if a member seeks clarity, they can stop the whole proceedings and move in that kind of direction and so on.
So, I am calling on the Whips and those responsible in various political parties and provinces to ensure that this question of rules is attended to and that we at all costs avoid creating that kind of confusion in the way we do our work.
Question put: That the Bill be agreed to.
IN FAVOUR: Eastern Cape, Free State, Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, Northern Cape, North West.
AGAINST: Western Cape.
Bill accordingly adopted in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
CONSIDERATION OF CORRECTIONAL SERVICES AMENDMENT BILL AND REPORT OF SELECT COMMITTEE ON SECURITY AND JUSTICE THEREON
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Chairperson, greetings to your good self and to all hon members who are in the House and on the virtual platform.
Hon Chairperson, on the 4th of December 2020 in Sonke, the Constitutional Court handed down judgement in an application for confirmation of a declaration of constitutional invalidity of sections 88a(1b), 88a(4) and 91 of the Correctional Services Act, Act 111 of 1998, by the High Court of South Africa, Western Cape Division, Cape Town.
In essence, the Constitutional Court confirmed the order of invalidity of the High Court that sections 88a(1b) and 91 of the Principal Act are inconsistent with section 7(2) of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa.
The court held that the impune provisions are constitutionally invalid to the extent that they fail to provide an adequate level of independence to the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services, JICS.
The Constitutional Court ordered that the declaration of constitutional invalidity be suspended for 24 months to allow Parliament an opportunity to correct the defect, giving rise to the constitutional invalidity. This means that the defect had to be cured before the 4th of December 2022.
In light of the outstanding determination from the Minister of Finance, the department obtained an extension from the Constitutional Court until the 3rd of December 2023.
The impune sections relate in brief to the appointment and reporting lines of the Chief Executive Officer and the funding of the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services.
The department and the JICS have engaged on the implementation of the judgement and the drafting of a JICS Bill to ultimately replace the relevant provisions concerning JICS in the Principal Act, thereby also amending the impune sections.
However, Hon Chairperson, the introduction of the JICS Draft Bill was delayed pending consultations with the relevant institutions.
There were unresolved issues hampering the finalisation of the draft Bill which sought to create a new entity outside of the Department of Correctional Services. These issues relate to the business model and funding objects and this has a profound impact on the contents of the Bill. These issues have now been resolved with National Treasury and the Department of Public Service and Administration, DPSA, except for the budgetary provisions for JICS.
In light of the limited time remaining for the Constitutional Court due date, the Minister was briefed on the 10th of March 2022 on the challenges and possible solutions. An alternate short-term proposal that a Correctional Services Act or Bill be drafted and consulted urgently was accepted. This solution also seeks to address the Constitutional Court judgement timeously.
Hon Chairperson, the Correctional Services Amendment Bill seeks to amend the Correctional Services Act 1998, so as to amend certain definitions; to make further provision for the custody of old inmates under conditions of human dignity; insert, delete and amend certain provisions related to the Judicial Inspector for Correctional Services; make further
provision for compliance management and provide for matters connected therewith.
The Bill is set as a Bill to be dealt with in terms of section
75 of the Constitution.
Hon Chair, the select committee received a briefing on the Bill on the 18th of October 2023 and in response to the committee’s invite for public written comments, the committee received three submissions from two individuals and one organisation.
On the 15th of November 2023 the committee received a briefing from the Department of Justice on the written submissions received on Bill. The department indicated that the public comments received would be considered in the general review of the Correctional Services Act 1998.
On the 22nd of November 2023 the committee considered and adopted the Bill as well as the committee report on the Bill.
The committee is of the view that the Bill will go a long way in ensuring the independence of the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services.
The committee further hopes that the Judicial Inspectorate Amendment Bill, which will be introduced speedily, and that the general review of the Correctional Service Act 1998, will be done as expeditiously as possible to ensure that the dignity of those incarcerated are prioritised.
Hon Chairperson, the Select Committee on Security and Justice, having considered the Correctional Services Amendment Bill, refer to it on the 19th of September 2023 and classified by the Joint Tagging Mechanism, JTM, as a section 75 Bill, recommends the Council pass the Bill without proposed amendments. Thank you, hon Chair.
Declarations of vote:
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Chairperson, I will so the declaration on behalf on hon Motsamai, he had an emergency.
Chairperson, there currently exist a huge crisis facing Correctional Centres in this country. The crisis requires a complete overhaul of the prison system in this country to ensure that those who are imprisoned get proper opportunities for rehabilitation.
At present it is impossible to ensure that this happens because of the deeply embedded corruption within Correctional Services.
Our Correctional Centres are overcrowded, making the administration of these centres a nightmare for managers.
So, changing the names of Heads of Prisons to Heads of Human Detention Facility, ss this bill seeks to do, does not assist in any way. In as far as the amendment relates to the Judicial Inspectorate of Correctional Services, while we supported their mandatory reporting requirements by Heads of Prisons to the Judicial Inspectorate, these do not take the full account of abuses faced by inmates.
The amendment ought to also include making it in mandatory to report prisoners to prisoners violation to human rights and create an obligation of Correctional Centres to put a stop on prisoner-to-prisoner abuse.
Overall, we are in support of the Bill. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Chairperson, the dawn of a constitutional democracy has stated the extensive systematic reform of Correctional Centres.
The Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services facilitates the inspection of correctional facilities to ensure the offenders rights are respected, and ... [Inaudible.] ... reports on any corrupt or dishonest practices in Correctional Centres.
JICS articulated detailed standards ... [Interjections.] JICS articulated detailed standards regulating the conditions of detention and the treatment of incarcerated persons and represented a move towards an internationally acceptable correctional system.
Dignity is a foundational value in our Constitution. In the Sonke Gender Justice Case the court noted that vulnerability of inmates in Correctional Centres and the real possibility of the infringement of their rights to live, dignity, bodily security and conditions. Consonant of the human dignity imposes a positive obligation on the state to provide appropriate protection to inmates through laws and structure designs to afford such protection.
Sonke instituted proceedings in the High Court and challenged sections 85(2), 91, 88a(1b), 88a(4) and 81 of the Correctional Services Act.
On the basis that these sections failed to provide the Judicial Inspectorate with the independence it requires to operate effectively.
The High Court upheld the Sonke’s challenge to sections 88a(1) and 88a(1b), 88a(4) and 91, and found that these sections threatened the Judicial Inspectorate’s independence.
The first judgement, which is the majority judgement, upheld the order of constitutional invalidity in respect of section 88a(1)(b) and 91. It held that section 7,2 of the Constitution required the state to take responsible and reasonable steps to protect the rights of the incarcerated persons and that the state had elected to do so by establishing the Judicial Inspectorate.
The court concluded that the independence was inherent of characteristic of an oversight entity and that the Judicial Inspectorate should be structurally and operationally
independent and perceived as such in order to execute its mandate.
This Bill, therefore, seeks to amend the Principal Act to align it to the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and the Sonke judgement to provide an adequate level of independence with the JICS and matters related there to.
We are of the view that this Bill will strengthen relations between JCIS and Department of Correctional Services, DCS.
The ANC supports the Bill. Thank you very much, hon Chairperson.
Debate concluded.
VOTING
Accordingly agreed to in accordance with section 65 of the Constitution.
The Council adjourned at 15:52.
Audio
No related