Hansard: NCOP: Unrevised hansard
House: National Council of Provinces
Date of Meeting: 31 Oct 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCES
TUESDAY, 31 OCTOBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL COUNCIL OF PROVINCE
The Council met at 14:04
The Chairperson took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
HYBRID SITTING
(Announcements)
THE CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much, let me take this opportunity to make a few announcements. The first relates to an opportunity to congratulate Mrs Tulia Ackson from the United Republic of Tanzania for her election as the first African woman as the President of the Inter- parliamentary Union, IPU on 23 October 2023. Those of you who have been involved in these processes know that there has been this campaign led by South Africa, yet, it has ultimately become successful as Tulia Ackson in the first woman ever to lead the IPU ascends seats.
Secondly, I also wish to congratulate Amabhokobhoko for bringing the World Cup back home. So, we thank our rugby team for winning the Rugby World Cup hosted by France. As they say, they fought to the very, very end. As they say, discipline is indeed destined.
Thirdly, I also wish to inform hon delegates that there is no streaming of the proceedings. The matter is being attended to. Thank you very much.
Before we proceed, I would like to remind delegates of the Rules relating to virtual and hybrid meetings and sittings, in particular, as we always do Sub rules 21,22-23 of Rule 103 which provides as follows: That the hybrid sitting constitutes a sitting of the National Council of Provinces that the delegates in the hybrid sitting enjoy the same powers and privileges that apply in a sitting of the National Council of Provinces that for purposes of the quorum. All delegates who are logged on to the platform shall be considered present.
Fourthly, that the delegates must switch on their videos if they want to speak, delegates who experience connectivity issues are encouraged to use a ... [Inaudible.] ... photograph for identification of the virtual platform as members normally do. That delegates on the virtual platform are encouraged to log on with one device only as logging on two or more devices further lowers the bandwidth. That delegates should ensure that the microphones on their electronic devices are muted and must always remain muted unless they are permitted to speak.
That all delegates in the Chamber must insert their cards to register on the Chamber system. That delegates who are physically in the Chamber must use the floor microphones.
That all delegates may participate in the discussion through the chat room and finally, in addition, I would like to remind delegates that the interpretation facility is active. So, permanent delegates, members of the executive, special delegates and Salga representatives on the virtual platform are requested to ensure that the interpretation facilities on the electronic devices are properly activated to facilitate access to the interpretation services. Permanent delegates, special delegates, Salga representatives and members of the executive in the Chamber should use the interpretation
instruments on the gadget to access the interpretation facilities.
Hon members to move on, I have been informed that there’ll be no notices of motion or motions without notice. So, in accordance with Council Rule 229 (1) there will be no notices of motion or motions without notice. To move on, I would like to take this opportunity to welcome the Ministers, the Security Cluster, specifically the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services, as well as the Minister of Police, permanent delegates, MECs, special delegates and Salga representatives, you are also welcome.
Further, I would like to remind delegates that in terms of Rule 229 of the country, Rules apply. This is really in relation to times and so on, allocated to Ministers and participants. The time for reply by the Ministers to a question is five minutes. Only four supplementary questions are allowed per question, a member who has asked the initial question will be the first to be afforded an opportunity to ask a supplementary question. The time for asking a supplementary question is two minutes. The time to reply a supplementary question is four minutes. The supplementary question must emanate, as we have always warned members, from the initial question. So don’t ask a question that has nothing to do with the initial question that is being put forward.
Having done this, we will therefore move on to the questions. So, we will start with the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. The question that we will attend to as the first one is Question 236, the question is on fire at the Kutama Sinthumule Correctional Centre. This question has been asked by M Bartlett and is directed to the Minister of Justice and Correctional Services. Please proceed to the podium, Minister.
QUESTIONS FOR ORAL REPLY
Cluster 1: Peace and Security
Question 236:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you very much, Chairperson, Deputy Chairperson, Minister of Police and all delegate members of the NCOP who are here. No, the department is still conducting its investigation into the fire that broke out at the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre on 7 August 2023. However, the preliminary investigation reveals that the fire was sparked by a cigarette lighter mounted on
the wall in the facility. The final report will shed more light and clear any uncertainties in this regard.
To reply Question 236 (1)(b), a total of 3 021 inmates have been transferred to various regions across the country: Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West, 2 100. Free State and Northern Cape, 351; Gauteng, 200; and Western Cape, 370.
To reply Question 236 (1)(c), the SA Custodial Management, which is the contracting party to the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre contract, is currently busy with renovating the correctional facility with the intention of returning it to its original status before the Department of Correctional Services can certify it to be habitable for inmates. It should be noted that most of the Department of Correctional Services facilities are overcrowded. However, the Department of Correctional Services has adopted the 150% maximum threshold for overcrowding. Beyond that, the overcrowding strategy is being implemented to deal with that challenge. The current special remission is assisting to mitigate overcrowding in addition to the other strategies related to mitigation of overcrowding, which is the application of bail for inmates who already have bail to request the reduction or cancellation thereof, rationing -
which means moving inmates from one facility to the other - and also the continuation of building infrastructure. We continue to maintain that the pace of building infrastructure will never be at the same pace and level of conviction for inmates hence the challenge of overcrowding persists. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Thank you, hon Chairperson and hon Minister for answering the question. I am sorry for laughing. I just want to ask, was there effective firefighting in that area and that, was there adequate facilities or enough equipment to deal with the fire and the blaze?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Indeed, there were enough firefighting equipment which was confirmed by the inspection on 10 August. The centre had fire hose reels and fire extinguishers in each section. So, there were indeed enough firefighting equipment which enabled the centre to respond immediately. It also enabled them to call for help from the local authorities, the Makhado Local Municipality and the Vhembe District Municipality in Limpopo, and also the other nearer local municipalities, which is Polokwane Local Municipality and Thulamela Local Municipality. They arrived on time, and they helped the centre to fight the
blazing fire. This averted the centre from being completely gutted down. We want to thank the local municipalities and the provincial government for their swift and immediate response in this regard and their help that enabled the centre not to lose even one inmate from escaping. This was also augmented by the work of the SA Police Service who responded immediately and arrived on the scene and barricaded the whole centre. It was not out of a natural cause or osmosis that there was no escape, but it was because of the hard work of all the local authorities in and around the area.
The Thulamela area commissioner who is also a female led a battalion to prevent any escape. We want to thank her for this work that she did. We continuously state that the use of negotiations in that period averted and saved a lot of lives and also averted an escape. The work of the firefighters in the area, the work of the police and also the work of the local community in Makhado, was of great importance to prevent any escape in the area. These were South Africans who were working together to ensure that no one escape. For that reason, there was not even a single escape. I believe if there was any escape or anything have happened, it would have embarrassed this country. You would have called us here in Parliament to account as on many occasions. It would have been in the international news. The work of these officials has only been congratulated by the South African government. I believe that all of us as South Africans do have a word to congratulate the good work of these officials who prevented the escape after what happened in that centre. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr C F B SMIT: Thank you, hon Chairperson. With regard to my follow-up question, the present uprisings that have led to such damage are usually caused by one of two factors. Firstly, correctional centres do not have smuggling of inadmissible goods under control. Secondly, the human rights abuses due to overcrowding and treatment of inmates on a day-to-day basis.
Both these factors are out of control. There is an overwhelming number of complaints not only against the employees of the department, but of human rights abuses due to overcrowding and treatment of inmates on a day-to-day basis.
Your warrants and present management have a key role to play. Now we are thrilled to be rid of Fraser, but the new director- general, DG, does not seem to have the capacity either. Why does the department continue to avoid implementing the changes proposed by the Jali Commission? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you.
Firstly, what we need to isolate from the question is that this facility was managed by the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre. It’s managed by the private company on behalf of the Department of Correctional Services. What happened there is not what happened across the centres of the Correctional Services. That is what we need to first put across.
By the time this riot incident happened it was even before the due date that was set by the inmates – a self-set due date by inmates that they want their demands to be responded to on a particular date. They did this before that due date. The Correctional Services had, in terms of the contract, kick- started what need to be done when there are grievances and issues that are raised. The Correctional Services was still engaging with the management of the centre, the Kutama- Sinthumule Correctional Centre, to attend to the grievances.
It is not correct that those issues were not attended to. There was a process. We cannot justify such act of vandalism and such act of arson with whatever grievance. There is no grievance that can justify the burning of a facility.
First and foremost, we must condemn that as wrong and barbaric. We cannot send our grievance through such kind of action. Secondly, the department was communicating with the management of the area to deal with those grievances. There is no justification for the action of the inmates on that particular date. Processes have been taken to deal with the inmates that instigated the fire. The department is in the process of dealing with the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre in line with the contract. I must mentioned that both contracts of the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre and the contract in Bloemfontein are heavily skewed in favour of the private companies that are running these facilities hence it is so difficult for the government and the department to extricate itself from these contracts. Even when they have committed the most egregious acts of misconducts or breach of contract we are still being subjected to disputes and court processes when it should perfectly be obvious that government should be able to exercise its rights in terms of these contracts. But how those contracts have been drafted and crafted are not at all in line with parties contracting in equal length. It is heavily in favour of the private companies hence the department continues to attend and exercise its rights in a manner that will still be in line with the constitutional democracy that we have.
Indeed, we have followed all the procedures and processes stipulated in the contract to deal with the disputes. Across the country there is dispute management mechanism that enabled the department to respond to these kinds of situations. I believe that in this situation it was also applied into good use by the Thulamela management area through negotiations which enabled the inmates to surrender and for the department to take over the facility. Thank you.
Ms T L HLABANGWANI: Thank you, hon Chairperson. The follow-up question is directed to the Minister. Minister, the story of the construction mafias can be traced back to the year 2014 yet to date. Even in your response there is no tangible proof to show that you are dealing with the problem. In light of this, which investigations have been conducted which specifically look into the involvement of the ANC as an enabler of this form of extortion?
Mr M DANGOR: Is it related to the question?
Ms T L HLABANGWANI: Yes, hon Chair.
Mr M DANGOR: I think the question is not related to the original question. Thank you.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: There seem to be a problem there. I don’t know if you want to make a comment before we move on.
Ms M DLAMINI: Chairperson, the question was supposed to be by the hon Mokause. Can I proceed and read it on her behalf?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: No, hon members. We get list of people who will speak and the topics long before hand. By the time we come here we are pretty settled about what is happening.
Ms M DLAMINI: Understood, Chairperson! Could we kindly rectify it by asking the follow-up question coming from the EFF.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: But where will it go?
Ms M DLAMINI: She is on virtual, and she has asked me to read the question on her behalf.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Ntante Masondo, this is the same as what happened to me last week. The Table must fix its schedule.
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Unfortunately, I cannot assist you in that regard because the question had already been asked. So, you cannot come up with a new question.
Ms M DLAMINI: But can we ask in relation to this because it is very important, Chairperson?
The CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Thank you very much. We move on to supplementary question number four from the hon M A P De Bruyn. The hon De Bruyn!
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Thank you Chairperson. Hon Minister, according to the media reports from the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre and the extent of your response here today, the situation at the correctional facility was as a result of inmates revolting because of their claims of alleged assault and torture by staff, insufficient food and having to beg for access to health facilities which have not been attended to. Hon Minister, these types of cases and behaviour have been reported since and before 2012 and it seems that very little had been done to investigate and rectify the situation. To date a specific prison was slapped with a penalty of about R1,56 million for violating the contract where prisoners were allegedly abused and violated. But this
amount seems like a drop in the bucket when taking into account that the government spends almost R1 billion per year for the two privately-run correctional facilities in the Free State and Limpopo.
Hon Minister, if these companies have been violating the conditions of the contract and the Constitution of South Africa for so many years, why are they still here? When will their contracts be terminated? You have just stated that the contracts between the Department of Correctional Services and the private companies are skewed in their favour. Minister, who was responsible for these contracts being skewed in their favour? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Chairperson. Is it not a contradiction that the hon member says that nothing was done to exercise the contract by the Department of Correctional Services, while he also states that they were fined about R1,5 million? That is the Department of Correctional Services acting on the terms of the contract to show that they are being followed up. We are looking into the contract, and we follow what the contract says with regards to these two private prisons including the Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre. It is in context that I mentioned that
these contracts are indeed heavily skewed in favour of the private companies because when you look at some of the egregious misconducts or acts of breach of contract, indeed, it should warrant an immediate termination, but those contracts do not stipulate that. Instead, they say that you must fine them, you must give them a chance to do the following and the following, and it is a long list of such things that are put in the contract. As the hon member has said the Department of Correctional Services has done what it is supposed to do in terms of the contract.
As we speak now that facility is run by the Department of Correctional Services. We have taken it over. The independent contractor is currently repairing the contract in terms of their own processes and the insurance that they are supposed to be doing. That is also stipulated in the contract. All those processes are being followed by the Department of Correctional Services.
As you are aware we have dealt with the issues of termination with regard to the Mangaung correctional facility where we have also been taken to the processes of the contract, mediation, arbitration and in certain instances courts. Even in this regard we have to follow all those processes. We do
what we are supposed to do in terms of the Constitution, and we are following what the contract says because it is important for us as government to act in a responsible manner so that by the time whatever decision is taken to terminate the contract, it can be able to withstand any due processes in any platform in the Republic of South Africa.
We have already stated that we will not be renewing the contract at Kutama-Sinthumule Correctional Centre when it expires. The Department of Correctional Services stands ready to take over the contract and run the facility. As you will have seen on the night of the incident it was the Department of Correctional Services’ correctional facility and the Thulamela management area that went in and intervened. They were led by a woman who was very fortitude. She negotiated the situation and calmed it down hence we averted the catastrophe even an escape. This was because of the sterling work of the Department of Correctional Services official. That was a demonstration of the capability by the Department of Correctional Services to be ready to take over. They can even take over in an emergency situation which happen at night.
They went in and took over. We are ready to take over the management of that facility at any time, but we have to follow due processes of the law in a constitutional democracy.
If it was in my hands, I was going to say it now, hon Chair, that we are going to terminate both contracts, take over and move on. But there is a contract, and we have to follow due processes of the contract. Any process of termination must be done in line with the law. Thank you, Chair.
Question 240:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, we want to completely reject the insinuation that the special remission of sentence approved by President Cyril Ramaphosa on 11 August 2023 was initiated for the sole purpose of the immediate release of one person, former President Zuma. Such an incorrect statement is not consistent with the facts which were clearly outlined when we announced the special remission of sentences.
As of 16 October 2020, the total cumulative number of sentenced offenders released on special remission was 15 674. The total number of released comprises 14 572 males and 1 102 females, of which 13 771 were released unconditionally, while
1 903 were conditionally released into community corrections to continue serving their sentences until the sentence expiry date. We have a breakdown which we can give to hon Michalakis
in terms of the provinces, and how many in every province if there is a need.
There is a background to the process that led to this. In April there was an audit by the Auditor-General, AG, which found that several bed spaces had to be reduced by about 1000 and something in the department, which meant that the department was immediately exceeding the level of overcrowding required by international standards. This has also been reported to various committees, including the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security Cluster, JCPS, cluster and even in Parliament. It is a known challenge of overcrowding in the country which was initiated during that period.
We reported it for some time. When the prison facility was burned in Kutama Sinthumule Correctional Centre it became obvious that we would not have enough bed capacity to be able to house the inmates across the country that would need the space. Therefore, we immediately approached the President to activate the process of the special remission so that the inmates could find a place while being transported through the country’s prisons. Because the ones at Kutama-Senthumule, as hon members would be aware, are maximum inmates. We could not release them to the community. So we had to look at those who
were low-risk across the country and who fit the description of being close to their release date to be discharged. So the special remission became urgent so that inmates could be transferred across the country with immediate effect and we could deal with the overcrowding. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr M G MICHALAKIS: Thank you, hon Chairperson. Hon Minister, it is interesting, hon Minister that without mentioning any specifics you immediately jump to the defensive and refer to former President Zuma. When someone explains too much, I become very, very distrustful.
Minister, my question is that thousands of inmates were released, as you have just mentioned, more than fifteen thousand. These individuals have nowhere to go, they are in many cases rejected by their families and they are unable to find employment due to their criminal records. In most cases, they have not been fully rehabilitated because of a lack of social workers and rehabilitation programmes. Many of them are homeless, on the streets and left to fend for themselves. They have no option other than to resort back to crime. More than
15 000 people were released. Will you at least take some responsibility and then take into consideration their conditions after they have been released? Will you at least
take some responsibility for the rising crime stats since you put criminals back on the streets?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, the question was very clearly specific that the purpose of the release was for one specific person, although they did not mention him. But it is a known fact that the Democratic Alliance has accused me and the President that we did special remissions specifically for former President Zuma and that is a special person that they are referring to. So, it’s not a secret. That is why we must state that that was not the reason. The purpose was to manage the issue of overcrowding, which we have explained as having far exceeded the limits required by the international standards and the burning of the prison immediately necessitated to kick-start this process of special remission.
Concerning the inmates across the country, before correctional services release anyone, there is an initiation of engaging with the families, caregivers and all those that are responsible for housing inmates outside the facility and, where possible, to engage with the local communities, ward councillors, ward committees and also traditional leaders to help with the re-integration of offenders into the community.
We always argue that the issue of rehabilitation is not just an issue for the Department of Correctional Services, it is a community issue which needs everyone to play their role. When inmates are released, there must be a way to reintegrate them into society. That can only be helped by the ward committees, traditional leaders and everyone in that society. And that has been done in a number of these inmates and most of them have been welcomed.
Indeed, it’s true that there are certain instances where there are challenges in terms of housing the inmates, hence you will find a situation where the department has to help them in terms of the halfway house and other processes that community leaders help us with. This is not only for the special remission, Chairperson. On a day-to-day basis, prisoners’ sentences expire. We have to release them when their sentences expire and this does not only occur when there is a special remission it happens every day. So, we deal with that in the department on a day-to-day basis. And communities have been of help across the country, including the community leaders that I have mentioned.
I must also mention that indeed, sometimes the inmates do embarrass the department. Some of them do commit heinous
crimes, either those whose sentences have expired or some of those who are on parole. However, in terms of our statistics about parolees 99,9%, of the parolees comply with their parole regime. They are good citizens, and they do what they are supposed to do. A handful of them do indeed commit crimes, and sometimes they then make big headlines because some of the crimes they commit are very heinous. This is an issue that we have to deal with in terms of our rehabilitation programmes so that the inmates do not again re-offend when they are released.
We also send a message to the inmates that anyone who is released from a correctional facility becomes an ambassador of correctional services. As they go out, they must behave themselves, they must conduct themselves, hence they also get psychological help and various help in terms of skills development so that they can be economically and socially positive in society. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms S SHAIKH: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Let me thank the Minister for the responses to this question. We do appreciate full and proper responses to questions in the House. Minister, can you indicate whether such a remission
programme was ever implemented before the one on 16 October 2023?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, indeed, the special remission pardons and remittance of sentence is in the powers of the President. All the democratically elected presidents of the Republic of South Africa from President Mandela have initiated the remissions programme. It has been done many times. Former President Mbeki also did it in 2005 and 2012. The current President did it in 2019 and 2020. It focuses mainly on low-risk offenders who meet the criteria for consideration. A guideline was developed and circulated for implementation. Therefore, it is by criteria for consideration that offenders are allowed or they become eligible for this type of special remission, which the President on day-to-day. As and when there is a need to alleviate overcrowding in our facilities, it is being implemented. So, it is indeed a programme which the President can implement from time to time under the Constitution of the country and exercise within his rights and powers. Thank you very much.
Mr N M HADEBE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, since your department has resorted to the release of convicted
criminals as a way of addressing certain challenges in correctional services, such as overcrowding and a lack of beds, what methods have you adopted and implemented to ensure that the programme is not abused by prisoners? And that the programme is not used as a method to evade prisoner accountability, and that the programme is not abused by the government to evade its responsibility to provide more correctional facilities while fighting crime?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, on the last point that hon Radebe has mentioned, I must re-emphasize, hon Chairperson that while we do have a programme to a capital programme of infrastructure to build more prison facilities in the country, which is ongoing, we also have challenges in that programme, but even if we do not have challenges, we will not be able to build prisons to outpace the level of conviction and arrest in this country.
The first battle we need to fight as a country to defeat overcrowding is a fight against crime. We need to have the economy functioning, we have to deal with unemployment, and we have to deal with the social challenges in families, especially the family structure. That is what we need to deal with. To have society functioning and their families working so that we do not have crime. We must first deal with the
level of crime. Due to the number of convictions, several prisoners come into the room every day, which naturally leads to overcrowding, on the one hand, due to pre-trial detention and on the other hand due to those who have been convicted by the system.
We do have a policy in place that ensures that there is no abuse of the process. The policy does put determined criteria, starting with the elderly, women and vulnerable people with disabilities, those that are of low risk and are left with a few months to be released and so forth. So, there is a determined criterion that the area commissioners are using for those who are eligible to be able to release the offenders.
And it is not the only method that the Department of Correctional Services is using to fight overcrowding. As I have said, we also use the method where inmates have bail, but cannot afford bail, they are helped to reapply with the magistrate to reduce the bail or to cancel. Some of them do succeed, some do not succeed. We also use the process of rationing, which means moving inmates from one facility to another which may not be as overcrowded as the other one where they are coming from. Several methods are being used and this is one of them. It’s not the only method we use, but on a day-
to-day basis, some methods are used to deal with overcrowding, including the whole JCPS setting processes, alternative sentencing and so on. So, all those are methods that are being used. The process of remission, as I have said, is just one of them. Thank you.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Thank you very much, hon Minister, the idea that you stay behind the remission is to reduce the overcrowding in the prisons and you have also mentioned now that fifteen 15 674 prisoners have been released. I just want to check with you in the Free State province how many prisoners have been released to date since the inception of this remission. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, in the Free State province, 1 422 inmates were released in the process of special remission. Chairperson, I must just mention one thing about the Free State and Northern Cape so that it does not sound like it is only the Free State region. Thank you.
Question 237:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chair,
the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development
recently completed a comprehensive review of key legislation pertaining to whistle-blowers and witness protection. The aim of this review was to evaluate the current level of protection afforded witnesses and whistle-blowers while also identifying any potential gaps in the existing legal framework.
On the 29th of June, the findings of this review were made public in a document titled Disgorging Document on Proposed Reforms for the whistle-blower Protection Regime in South Africa.
This document served as a platform for proposed reforms and sought to gather feedback from stakeholders and the general public. The closing date for comments on the document was set for the 15th of August 2023.
Since its publication, the department has received valuable inputs from various organisations and individuals. These comments have been carefully considered and have played a crucial role in the drafting of the forthcoming Bill.
The aim is to ensure that the final legislation adequately addresses the concerns and suggestions put forth by these stakeholders.
One of the biggest challenges that the department has faced regarding witness protection is the fact that we are currently operating with the Witness Protection Act, which does not provide for the protection and for providing of the same protection that we provide to witnesses, to whistle-blowers.
So, we are hopeful that with the current Bill that is being proposed we will be able to adequately cover this aspect. And regarding the provisions that will be introduced to encourage the reporting of crimes, ensure that whistle-blowers are protected from various consequences.
The proposed Bill aims to introduce a new offence that prohibits the use of force, cohesion, threats, intimidation or any other cohesive means against another person, with the intent to influence that person from making a disclosure. This is a significant step towards protecting whistle-blowers and ensuring that they are not silenced through intimidation or fear.
Furthermore, the Bill proposes to make it an offence if a person or body fails to act upon a protected disclosure after it has been made. This provision is critical as it ensures that whistle-blowers are not left vulnerable and exposed, and
that whistle-blowers and their disclosures are taken seriously and acted upon accordingly.
The Bill also provides for the protection of whistle-blowers and their immediate family members in instances where their lives or properties are endangered. This is a crucial provision as it recognises the risks that whistle-blowers face and seeks to mitigate them by providing them with adequate protection.
Overall, the proposed Bill is a significant step towards protecting whistle-blowers and promoting transparency and accountability. It sends a strong message that whistle-blowers play a vital role in exposing wrongdoing and that they should be supported and protecting protected for doing so.
So, we are now in the process of drafting the Bill on the basis of the inputs that we have received from the public and we are hopeful to publish it very soon. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Chair, I want to really thank the Minister for the detailed response to the question. There is no doubt in my mind that this new policy proposal is an
important milestone in the fight against crime in our country. It is very much important, protecting whistle-blowers and it is also encouraging, hon Chair, to learn that the proposed Bill will give adequate protection to the whistle-blowers and their families.
But I would like the Minister to elaborate and indicate to us what does this adequate protection entail? Thank you very much, hon Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chair,
indeed it does propose a number of mechanisms. One of the mechanisms that are being proposed is that we need to designate one of the Chapter 9 institutions like the SA Human Rights Commission, SAHRC, to receive and investigate complaints from whistle-blowers who believe they may face detrimental action for making protected disclosures.
During the investigations conducted by the SAHRC no disciplinary action should be taken against the whistle- blower. This ensures that individuals are not unfairly targeted or penalised for coming forward with important information.
Another proposal is that if any legal proceedings are instituted against a disclosure concerning matter arising from a disclosure made by a whistle-blower, the Minister is of the opinion that the disclosure is in need of legal assistance, the Minister must issue a certificate to the disclosure recommending that the Legal Aid SA consider granting legal aid to that disclosure.
Protecting the identity of the whistle-blower is of utmost importance. It is proposed that a whistle-blower may disclose anonymously. It also places a duty on the person receiving information to keep it confidential and not identify. Should the receiver reveal the identity of the whistle-blower, they will be committing an offence and could face imprisonment or a fine. This provision is aimed to create a safer and secure environment for individuals to make disclosures without any fear or of reprisal.
So, there is such a number of proposals that are coming through from what we have received from the public and they will become more apparent as and when we publish the Bill and we believe that the public can further enhance the Bill, but we believe that most of those issues that have been raised
will be able to help us resolve this conundrum of protecting whistle-blowers. Hon House Chairperson, thank you.
Mr M A P DE BRUYN: Minister, we welcome the fact that the new policy proposals to address the gaps identified in the protected disclosures and witness protection legislation were finally prioritized since the President promised to do so in his state of the nation address speech of 2022.
Unfortunately, hon Minister, for many whistle-blowers this was too late. When the Global Initiative Against Transnational Organised Crime identified a total of 1 971 assassination cases in South Africa between 2000 and 2021, and many of those targeted and killed were whistle-blowers and human rights defenders who were exposed to corruption and stood up for the human rights of their communities and the whole of South Africa.
Now, hon Minister, since the gaps in legislation and the protection of whistle-blowers who were mostly to blame for this, are the families of the assassinated whistle-blowers given any support in terms of trauma counselling and financial compensation and so forth? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, as I’ve said that we are now working on the Bill and we have also received inputs from the members of the public. We are working on the amendment to the Bill.
And as you are aware, hon House Chairperson, our democracy is continuing to mature. As and when we learn of certain gaps in legislation, we have to close those gaps. So, now those gaps have been pointed out and we are working to close them.
As you will be aware, hon House Chairperson, the Witness Protection Act was aimed to only deal with witnesses in court processes and over time it has become obvious that we need to extend the protection also to whistle-blowers. But it’s not that there was nothing that has been done by this government.
The first phase that this government deed and it must be applauded for, was to protect witnesses who were crucial in the court process. With our lived experience and also the period of state capture, has now taught us that we need to extend the protection not only to the witnesses, but also to whistle-blowers.
So, out of that experience we have produced this discussion document and we will now promulgate a Bill. It’s a movement forward, hon House Chairperson, out of the lived experience.
So, that is what we are doing and that is what we will continue to deal with and hopefully the Bill will be able, as I have said, to also be helpful to the families of the of whistle-blowers, particularly for those that are breadwinners and so forth, that must provide for their families. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Ms S B LEHIHI: Minister, whistle-blowers in this country deserve a high level of protection as the rate of corruption within the ANC government has reached high levels.
With the provision which the Minister speaks of, broaden the protection of whistle-blowers for years after the report has been made, and will physical protection be provided to whistle-blowers once they have disclosed their identity, as there have been several reports of intimidation of whistle- blowers and the current legislation in place does not go far enough in protecting whistle-blowers? Ke a leboga, Modulasetilo. [Thank you, Chairperson.]
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, there is no policy of the ANC of corruption. The ANC frown upon corruption in all its contents. So, it’s incorrect that it’s an ANC thing.
We do have a problem of corruption in the South African society and from time to time South Africans are being convicted, whether members of the ANC or members of the DA or members of the EFF or IFP, or anyone, any civil society. If anyone has committed corruption, the law must deal with them equally without any fear or favour. So, it's not an ANC problem, it’s a societal problem that all of us as South Africans must confront and must deal with.
It is a responsibility this House has and everyone ... I see hon members are laughing ... but, hon Chair, you know very well that it’s everyone. I mean, as we speak, there’s a trial here in the Western Cape of a DA member. It happens everywhere. It’s not an ANC issue. So, it is a societal problem; so, we must deal with it as a societal problem, this issue of corruption.
And indeed, Chair, this process of crafting legislation and policies to respond to the challenges that whistle-blowers
have, will definitely help. But it should not be confused with VIP protection, as I hear the hon member, whether we will provide physical security. That perception, hon Chair, we have to deal with it because one of the researches which we found in Canada, they deal with a very low number of whistle-blowers and the costs associated with their processes and so forth are far different to the country of South Africa.
In South Africa the number of whistle-blowers, if I can only measure in terms of the witnesses that we protect, we deal with witnesses per annum above the range of 2 000. So, you can imagine if we also have to extend physical security to the whistle-blowers, to the witnesses, it will be billions of rands which this government cannot afford.
So, that’s why this process has to be carefully considered through this document that we have now published and through the Bill that we are going to provide to the public. It must also be costed so that we are able to manage a sustainable witness protection programme and a whistle-blower programme which government can afford and sustain. So, that is what the Bill will enable us to do, with adequate protection, with protection that is necessary and which is proportionate to the situation and circumstances of our country.
So, hence there was a need for this research. It has taught us. We have checked various jurisdictions to see how they deal with it in various jurisdictions and we are going to tailor- make what we believe will be suitable and work in our country. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Chair, before I continue. It doesn’t matter how much you try to deflect, Minister. The ANC has become the poster child of corruption and it’s been entrenched.
What is the reason why the discussion document published by the department stopped short of including a proposal for financial reward and assistance for those whose disclosures directly result in both the recovery of public funds and then suffering discrimination and detriment at the workplace? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Chair, I
will not get tired to repeat that corruption is a societal programme. We all have to deal with it as South Africans. It doesn’t matter where it raises its ugly head, whether it is in the DA or in the ANC or in the EFF or any party; it must be dealt with from all contexts. It must be dealt with anywhere in society whether it’s in a church, it’s in an non-
governmental organization, NGO, whether it's in a civil society; it doesn’t matter, it must be confronted upon and all South Africans must work together to do so.
And this whistle-blower protection initiatives, including the Bill that will be published, will also help to enhance such an initiative. The whistle-blower discussion documents did speak about the fund initiative that could be looked into, particularly from the money that may be recovered as to whether can’t we find mechanisms to also redirect such money to protect and help the whistle-blowers.
So, it is in the document and it is something that is being considered. Also from the public inputs that have come through and this money that comes back the into the state, it does come through what is called the Criminal Assets Recovery Fund, which we continue to use to fight crime on a number of issues. And we believe we can also find a creative way to also put that money to also help the victims or even the whistle- blowers in that context. Thank you, Chairperson.
Question 250:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon
Chairperson, the short-term response mechanism which the
Department of Correctional Services uses and has implemented to address overcrowding is the implementation of the 2023 special remission.
On 11 August 2023, the President granted the special remission to low-risk sentence offenders, probationers, parolees, and day parolees who were incarcerated in the system of community corrections. The special remission and even distribution of offenders are short term strategies successfully implemented as direct measures outlined in the Department of Correctional Services overcrowding reduction strategy.
In addition, the department is continuously implementing the following direct and indirect measures in dealing with population levels in correctional centres.
One, referral to court for bail review with an option for taking optional when available. Two, referral for consideration of period spent in detention, with an option for taking optional when available. Three, referral to court for terminally ill or severely incapacitated remand detainees.
Four, referral to court by the Department of Correctional Services for convention of sentences of imprisonment to correctional supervision. Five, use of progressive discipline
for breaching of non-custodial conditions, with imprisonment considered as a last resort. Six, compassionate release and release on medical parole. Seven, the presidential pardon or retrieve and remittance of fines, penalties, or forfeitures. Eight, monitoring of the sentence expiry dates and ensure that no sentence offender is kept beyond his or her sentence expiry date unless there are reasonable circumstances that justify detention, such as the state of disaster, placement on parole for lifers, placement on parole for determined sentences, identification and renovation of the unused building that can be converted into detention facilities, renovation and replacement of outdated correctional centres and building of new centres and the creation of more bed space where it is practically possible.
With regard to indirect measures that we have is the assessment of the several areas such as the operations of the criminal justice system, including profiles of inmates, including reclassification of offenders of prescribed interval for ensuring that security reclassification takes place, trials and imprisonments of inmates and raids, services offered for non-custodial measures, cooperation between services and community and criminal justice system authorities, promote corrections as a social societal
responsibility through projects and programmes such as schools, campaigns, crime awareness campaigns, izimbizo, restorative justice approaches, such as the victim offender, mediation process, victim offender dialogue sessions and holding of family days, participation in case flow meetings, sharing of trends on inmates population including pressure areas regarding the detention of inmates, marketing of the system of community corrections, including sharing of information on community services opportunities. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, on the 16th of December 2019, you stated that:
“We must stress that relations are not a solution to overcrowding.”
And yet, more than four years later, it seems as though your department is turning to the remission of prisoners as a solution to addressing overcrowding in correctional facilities, as opposed to this programme being extended to prisoners based on merit.
My question to you, hon Minister is: Has this become the department's attempt at a sustainable solution to the
overcrowding in jails, and are there any projected mass admissions of prisoners planned in the next five years? Thank you, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, it is not true that we are only turning to the special remissions programme. I've already stated here what we have done. One, applying for bail for those that have bail, but they could not afford, taking them back to the court process.
Two, the processes of correctional supervisions, reclassification of offenders and I've mentioned long list that the department follows to deal with overcrowding.
Referral for consideration of period spend in detention, referral to court of terminal ill, severely incapacitated remand detainees, referral to court by the Department of Correctional Service for convention of sentence of imprisonment to correctional supervision, use of progressive discipline for preaching non-custodial conditions, compassionate release, monitoring of an expiring of sentences to ensure that no sentence offender is kept beyond or his or her release date unreasonable and all those issues including the building of a facilities.
Since we started here, I've mentioned it three times that, there is no amount of building of prisons that can be able to accommodate and be enough to deal with overcrowding in our facility. We cannot match the pace at which inmates are being convicted in the country with the building of prisons.
The first problem we need to deal with in this country which I also suspect the police are dealing with and that's why they come through the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA and the judicial system. We need to deal with the crime situation. The challenge of dysfunctional families, the economic challenges of our country increase the rate of unemployment which we are currently dealing with and the issues of economic growth, social stability in our societies and communities.
That is what we need to deal with to deal with overcrowding. We need to reduce the level of crime because when we have reduced the level of crime, we will also reduce the level of overcrowding and the level of conviction. That is what we need to deal with.
The Department of Correctional Services is continuing to apply all the strategies, but the biggest strategy of them all is the level of crime. Research has proven that for you to be
able to deal with the crime in any country, the criminals must know that they will be arrested; secondly, that they will be prosecuted; and thirdly, that their rate of conviction is also very high. Research has also shown that in an unequal society, the crime is also violent, and that is the situation in our country.
We need to deal with inequality. We need to deal with the economic situation. We need to deal with the family set up in South Africa so that kids grow up being good citizens, making a positive contribution. We don't breed criminals in our society.
So, this becomes a societal responsibility, you cannot just throw it to the ANC government. We are government indeed, but we can govern with the help of all South Africans to deal with all the social challenges that we have. And that is what we need to focus on as a country, House Chairperson. Thank you very much.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon Minister, your department is time after time, found guilty of contravening the Mandela Rules and the and violation of human rights. A 2021 report from the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services found that thousands of
inmates are kept in solitary confinement, not for the allowed
30 days, but for months and in some cases, even years. Is this your solution to overcrowding? And if not, why are you violating the United Nations Mandela Rules and the Constitution? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, I think I've already answered that question. I have mentioned that we have got a number of strategies to deal with overcrowding and I can state here hon House Chair that, what he has mentioned - the issue of detention in isolation is not one of the strategies to deal with overcrowding in the Department of Correctional Service. That one is dealt with to punish offenders who have violated the prison rules in our facilities, and they are not being taken for any other reason.
It is the offenders who have violated the rules across our facilities who are taken to the isolated centres like the Ebongweni detention Centre, and the other ones. And it does happen that sometimes some of the few - there could be issues of exceeding the 30 days period because they are supposed to be there for 30 days and that is not in violation of the Nelson Mandela Rules.
If they are taken to Ebongweni, we comply properly. If they are taken in isolation, it is not in violation of the Nelson Mandela Rules. It's only when it exceeds the compliance period. We have had engagements with the Judicial Inspectorate for Correctional Services, and we have put measures in place to respond to these challenges, to be able to comply with the Mandela Rules and those isolated cases where we are not compliant. It's not the norm, it is one of the few, and when it does happen, there are measures to deal with it. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr K MOTSAMAI: Minister, correctional centres are overcrowded and most of the life imprisonment inmates have served half of their sentence, with some not being released due to the delays with the victim's offenders dialogue, VOD.
In light of this, what measures have been put in place to address the needs of prisoners with special needs as currently this group makes up a large part of the prisoners’ population and the special treatment requirements of that group can hardly be met in facilities which are overcrowded and under resourced? I thank you Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, we do indeed process the lifers and ensure that there is VOD. And with regards to the lifers, the VOD is also a very crucial component of their processing and rehabilitation because most of them have committed heinous crimes in society.
So, before any process goes to the National Council for Correctional Services, NCCS, we must ensure that there is a VOD process, not only for the families but for the communities that have been offended so that they are not shocked when an inmate who is known to have been convicted for a life imprisonment is released back into their society.
Tere is an important process of engagement with the community to smoothen the release of that inmate back into the society because, as you are aware, most communities believe that life should be life. And with our correctional system and with the number of judgments, the life sentences have been reduced to a particular number of a period in terms of remand detention, the packet judgement and the many judgments that relates to life have impacted the period of minimum detention.
So, all those must be educated to society so that society knows that this is the process that has been undertaken, the
inmate has been put through a rehabilitation programme and is now a person of good morals in society.
Hon House Chairperson, I must mention that we have never up to now had any incident with the lifers when we release them to the community and society, because with the time that they have spent in our facility, the majority of them have gone through a proper rehabilitation. So, there is almost zero incidences from the lifers, but the community has a different perception because of the crime that led them to go to prison.
We need to mitigate that situation and enable them to be to be released. Up to now, since I've been a Minister, I have not had any situation of the lifers having to come back recommitting.
These people in their majority have been properly rehabilitated. The most problematic inmates are the ones who just come for two days or two years for a lesser period because they have not undergone the whole process of rehabilitation in the facility. They are very problematic. As and when they are released, we receive them back quickly because they've committed and ... [Inaudible.] ... quickly out of the facility.
This is an issue which we are now engaging with the University of Limpopo to help us deal with these short-term offenders and help extend it to the remand detained prisoners so that when they are in remand detention, they also undergo some processes of rehabilitation so that they don't reoffend again. Because these are the people who give us a bad name as Correctional Services. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Ms A D MALEKA: Minister, overcrowding is indeed a big challenge for the correctional system. And we appreciate the steps taken by the department. Minister, since the implementation of the special remission recently, were there any offenders who committed any repeat offences?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Yes, as of
the 26th of October 2023, a total number of 97 offenders who benefited from the special remission have been recorded as reoffenders or rearrested. In the Eastern Cape 18, Free State and Northern Cape 15, Gauteng 2, KwaZulu Natal 7, Limpopo, Mpumalanga and North West 2 and the Western Cape has recorded the highest number of 53.
These offenders differ in terms of the offences that they recommit, theft, house breaking damage to essential
infrastructure, robbery with aggravating circumstances. A number of them is theft and most of the economic crimes which show the issues related to economic activities, despite the fact that as I've said, we grant them skills like welding, plumbing and so forth.
Hon Chair, as I have said, this number remains unacceptable to us because one is too many, particularly when they reoffend, as this sends a chilling message to society about the Correctional Services system. But we still work well through our correctional officers to ensure that the other 15 000 do not recommit through that process of reintegration and through ensuring that they use their skills efficiently and positively to help in society. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Question 241:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, on 13 February 2023 the Dubai Appeal Court rendered judgement in the extradition application of the Gupta brothers. The court found that on the charge of money laundering the crime in question is alleged to have been committed in the United Arab Emirates, UAE, and South Africa, and in terms of the federal laws of UAE extradition can be
denied because the UAE has the necessary jurisdiction to prosecute the crime.
This is correct, although at no stage did the UAE inform South Africa of its intention to prosecute the Gupta brothers for money laundering offenses because the extradition treaty or agreement says that where there is competent jurisdiction the requested state has to prosecute, and this did not happen. It is important to take into account that provisions of Article 5(1)(a) of the treaty which stated that the UAE indeed has a right to refuse extradition due to concurrent or competent jurisdiction, but the treaty is very clear that the requested party shall in that instance prosecute the offense.
On the charges of fraud and corruption the court found that the arrest warrant relating to fraud was cancelled and that no new warrants were attached for the corruption offenses. In this regard it is inconceivable that South Africa will submit a request for extradition for prosecuting the Gupta brothers on fraud and corruption offenses and not substantiate the request with a valid arrest warrant. The new warrants that were issued and the cancelled warrants were included in the extradition request. This finding by the court is categorically incorrect.
In an effort to better understand the reasoning of the Dubai Appeal Court and to gain clarity on further aspects of the extradition request, the Director-General directed a letter to the UAE central authority on 25 April 2023. In the letter, seven questions were posed to the UAE authorities, which needed clarification and when answered, will put South Africa in a position to consider our option as to the next step in the extradition proceedings against the Gupta brothers. The department, however, did not receive any response to that letter.
On 5 June 2023, myself, accompanied by the Director-General and the senior delegation visited the UAE and met with His Excellency Abdullah bin Sultan bin Awad Al Nuaimi, the Minister of Justice in the UAE, and His Excellency Judge Abdul Rahim Murad Al Busha, the Director of International Co- operation, the UAE central authority to engage the authorities in the UAE on the extradition request of the Gupta brothers and other areas of co-operation. This was followed by a further virtual technical meeting between the prosecutors of the UAE in South Africa on 15 June 2023.
At this meeting, South Africa emphasised the need for the UAE to respond to a letter sent by the South Africa central
authority on 25 April 2023. The UAE representative requested that South Africa resend the letter in both the English and Arabic languages in order to enable them to provide the necessary responses. The letter, in both English and Arabic, was again forwarded to the UAE via the diplomatic channels.
On 18 August 2023, the Minister again addressed a letter to his counterparts in the UAE advising the UAE central authority that South Africa is still awaiting a formal response to our not verbal with regards to the questions that we have sent. My letter was followed up with a further letter from the
Director-General to the central authority on 28 August 2023, requesting a formal response from the UAE.
The Department of Justice and Constitutional Development, as a central authority in the Republic of South Africa, is currently liaising with authorities in the UAE to obtain this information. This information will enable the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, and the Hawks to take further steps with regards to the extradition request. Our position is that they must not proceed until we have received the response on our questions, because at this stage it has not been clarified on a number of issues. So, we can resubmit and be given the same response. It is for that reason that the UAE
authorities must respond to these questions before the NPA can be able to look into its options. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Hon House Chairperson, I’m tempted to ask the Minister whether the letter in Arabic actually did say what he wanted it to say because he’s not been very successful up to now and there may be a bit of a mistranslation that he must just check up on as I don’t see a resounding success. However, Minister, there’s a clear discrepancy, based on very much what I just said now, between what you have been able to achieve – precious little - up to now despite meeting with the UAE and your promise back in the day to the public that the Guptas will be brought to book one day. Now when is one day? Is it 10 days? A year? Ten years?
At the rate of your success currently we might never get the Guptas back here to face justice in South Africa. My question to you then is would you not admit that if the law enforcement agencies in this country did their work in the first place while the Guptas were still on South African soil that it would not have been an issue to begin with? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, I will forgive the hon Member if he doubts my Arabic;
indeed, I have none. However, the Arabic translation has been done by a certified interpreter by those in the space and in the authority of Arabic translation and speaking. So, the interpreter who did the translation is certified as a qualified person capable to do it. It is not Lamula who did the translation but a person duly qualified and certified by international standard in Arabic language. Therefore, there is no one who can doubt that kind of interpretation, even the UAE authorities cannot question that interpretation because that person is certified.
The issue is that it is clear that they may not move because, the greatest example that they have to deal with the matter, is the money laundering charge. The treaty is very clear, and I have quoted it. It says that: “If you believe you have got competent jurisdiction on the charge of money laundering, you must charge the Guptas.” The UAE authorities have not done as per what the treaty says, and that is the point of contention which were raised with them. Article 5 of the treaty is very specific and very clear. You are saying you have competent jurisdiction, and this is the ground of your refusal. If this is the ground of your refusal, you must charge them because the treaty is very clear that if you say you have competent or concurrent jurisdiction then you must charge them. Why didn’t
you charge them? That is the question that we have asked them which they have not answered. So, this is work that we will continue to take forward.
I must state that on the question that he raised of whether there was work done when they were still here. I think work started early and investigations in any part of the world can take some time. Extraditions, by their nature, can also take some time. There are cases across the globe, even in the most advanced democracies and developed countries like the United States, US, extradition cases can take between one day and 20 years. There are cases in the USA which have taken long and in many other countries in Britain and many parts of the world.
The key thing with regards to extradition is that the central authority must do what it is supposed to do in terms of the treaty and in terms of the Act, so that even if Lamula is no longer there, whoever is the central authority or is the Minister of Justice will find a solid laid foundation. I am still convinced to date that indeed the Guptas will one day come to South Africa to account for their sins. It may not be today, it may not be yesterday, but they will definitely come back because we are going to ensure that the extradition
treaty and International Law are complied with even by the UAE. Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you, Minister. [Interjections.] Order, hon member. Order! Hon ...
IsiZulu:
... Ha-e baba! He-e baba.
English:
Hon Michalakis, I saw your hand is up. What is ...
Mr G MICHALAKIS: House Chair, on a point of order, on a lighter note though with regards to the translation in Arabic, I have a R100 here. The Minister should perhaps go and buy himself a sense of humour. He can collect it from me afterwards. Thank you. [Laughter.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Okay, hon members ...
IsiZulu:
... siyaqhuba. belisafuna nje sihleke ilungu elihloniphekile.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Hon House Chairperson, to the Minister, following the refusal or delaying tactics by the United Arab Emirates to extradite the Gupta brothers, what is the status of the task team established? Is there any time frame to wait for the response of the United Arab Emirates or they will wait forever? Thank you. [Interjections.]
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank very much, hon member. Order, hon members, with that R100. Minister, can you please respond to hon Moletsane?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chairperson, obviously with extradition cases, because they are also dependent on judicial processes, we are unable to put a time frame as a department because we are dependent on ourselves as the requesting state with processes that we have done. We have said that we have sent a number of questions to the UAE, which to date have not yet been answered, which must inform the next option by our authorities with regards to the request.
With an extradition request that is polycentric and judicial, when it reaches the requested state, it must go to the central authority which is the Minister of Justice, and it must also
go through the court processes of that country. Court processes also have a life of their own which makes it difficult for us to put a time frame. What we can do is to remain committed and in contact with the EAU authorities for them to respond to our questions so that we can expeditiously resubmit our request with regards to the Gupta brothers, which we believe must come back to our country to account in our court processes on the issues that the authorities want them to account for. It is for that reason that I say we will continue to comply with the extradition treaty between the two countries and our own extradition Act to ensure that a solid foundation is laid. If it is not me who succeeds to bring them back, whoever will be the Minister of Justice or the central authority, which is the Director-General, will be able to continue on the solid work that we are doing. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon House Chair, hon De Bruyn is experiencing connectivity problems; I will handle the question on his behalf. May I proceed?
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Alright.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, I am glad to see that you have now acknowledged the fact that the ANC will not be in government next year, and you will not be one of the Ministers again. Coming back to the question, hon Minister, what steps can be taken to ensure that the UAE does indeed keep to the prescripts of the extradition treaty and that they comply with that? What other measures are available that we can resort to in order to ensure that this extradition treaty is effectively enforced either by the UAE taking judicial steps against the Gupta brothers or for them to comply and send the Guptas back to South Africa? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, there is no such acknowledgement that the ANC will not be governing. The ANC will definitely be governing after the next elections. As true democrats, we will allow the process of elections to take place so that South Africans again gives the ANC a mandate to govern the country. However, it is true that my term as a Minister of Justice ends next year when the term of this current Administration ends. So, it is up to the President, who will be the president of the ANC, to appoint whomever he wants to be the Minister of Justice.
Indeed, we can be able to ... the extradition treaty is an enforceable international law instrument which we are continuing to explore its enforceability through the processes that we have undertaken with the authorities of the UAE. We continue to ensure that they comply and we also and other international bodies which South Africa serves in like the UN Convention on Corruption platforms, will continue to raise this issue to put political pressure also to the UAE. Extradition is not just a legal matter, it is a polycentric, judicial and legal issue which needs both diplomatic and political interface for each to succeed. It is against this background that we also continue to use the necessary international platforms and diplomatic channels to exert the necessary pressure to the UAE to stick and also comply with the terms of the extradition agreement between the two countries. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: House Chair, to the Minister, I know you have been answering this question in different ways but since the UAE is claiming concurrent jurisdiction on the money laundering charges, have they effected at least any arrest or process of the Gupta brothers thus far? You have mentioned the issue that you have written a thousand letters by now whether
in any language but still there is no process. Any process that has started, Minister?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, they have not started any processes and we have provided them with all the necessary information with regards to the money laundering charge. We have also indicated to them that if they intend to proceed, we stand ready to provide them with any further information that they may deem necessary to enable them to proceed with this charge. We have also indicated to them that in terms of the Article 5 of the extradition treaty between the two countries they do not have an option but to charge them. Article 5 says that in the case of a competent jurisdiction or concurrent jurisdiction, or any other requested state pleads concurrent jurisdiction or competent jurisdiction that state must charge. They don’t have an option; they must charge the Guptas in the UAE in terms of this treaty. That is what must happen, and as the government of the Republic of South Africa, we remain ready to help them with whatever information they may need to enable them to exercise that concurrent jurisdiction.
We continue to emphasise to them that because this is a matter of national interest to the Republic of South Africa, what is
a primary request from us is the extradition request and that is what we expect them to respond positively to as a matter of urgency. That is a matter of national interest to the people of South Africa, and they expect to see the two Gupta brothers standing trial answering for their allegations in the courts in the Republic of South Africa. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 238:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: In April
2023, the National Commissioner appointed a temporary director and an acting controller at the Mangaung Correctional Centre facility to oversee operations at the centre. A 90-day notice of termination due to multiple noncompliance with the concession contract was then issued on 2 May 2023. Since then, the department has been able to stabilize the facility.
However, the department has not been able to terminate the contract and completely take control of the centre due to a pending court matter - as I have said earlier on that these contracts are shockingly skewed in favour of the private companies. The egregious acts of misconduct or breach of the contract is so huge that we should not even be talking about the court processes - A mediation process took place in August 2023, as directed by the concession contract prior to termination of the contract and no agreement was reached
between the two contracting parties. A certificate was therefore issued for the matter to be referred to court as per the initial court order and was therefore referred to the Office of the Deputy Judge President and a meeting between the two contracting parties is scheduled for 7 November 2023, during which the application will be heard and a date for the hearing will be granted. Thank you, House Chair.
Ms N NDONGENI: House Chairperson, good afternoon. Thank you, Minister, for the update. We appreciate that this is an ongoing court matter, and you are not at liberty to divulge more details. Can you confirm, Minister, that the department stands ready to take over the operations of the facility should the contract be terminated today? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
Chairperson and hon Ndongeni, the department stands ready even if we can be required to take over today, we are ready, and we have demonstrated this readiness when we took over on an emergency situation in the Makhado Correctional Facility, which happened at night when everyone was sleeping, we immediately took over that facility, restore order with the help of the SAPS, with the Makhado Local Municipality
community in the area, we immediately stabilized the facility. We believe we have the capacity also to immediately take over the Mangaung Correctional Facility. We indicated on 18 March to the Portfolio Committee on Justice and Correctional Services that we will not be renewing the contract and we have put a task team that is already working with the issues of takeover, issues of the employment contracts of the workers in the facility, issues of all the contracts related to the provision of food, the provisioning of IT systems, the provisioning of maintenance of infrastructure, and all other related issues related to the facilities. We have all the reports, we know the number of staff, we know who is going on pension, who must still be re-employed in both facilities. So, with all these reports and with the ongoing engagements, we are ready, hon Chairperson, to take over the facility. With the Mangaung Correctional Facility, the contract is preventing us as we speak, and the court processes that are ongoing.
Otherwise, we are ready to march in and run the facility.
Mr M S MOLETSANE: Minister you have just said that as a government you have been prevented by the contract to not take over the Mangaung Correctional Facility, but looking at the issues, is it possible that by the end of this year, you would
have managed to take over the Mangaung Correctional Facility so that you are able to stabilize it permanently? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon House
Chair, yes, it is unfortunate because the matter is sub judice. It is difficult to provide some of the details, but what I can see is that in terms of the contract, we were supposed to give the Mangaung Correctional Facility 90 days’ notice of termination, which we have done. The contract then says that if there is a dispute, the two parties must enter a process of mediation, which has also happened, and now it is going through arbitration and so forth. So, that is what is delaying the process. We have done what we were supposed to do in terms of the notice of termination. We have done the 90- day, the 90 days have expired, and we were challenged by the contracting party in terms of the contract - as I have said that it is so skewed in favour of the private companies - that when you read it, there is no misdemeanor egregious enough to terminate the contract. We are working on it, and we believe that we will be able to deal with this issue of the termination of the contract. Unfortunately, I am unable to give you that by this December or not because it is now in the hands of the courts. So, once it is in the hands of the
courts, I cannot give a due date today; the court’s process has a life of its own. Thank you, House Chair.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, does this mean that the department will not enter any contract that allows private correctional services in the country? If not, why not? If so, does this mean that the issues that the private correctional services had intended to address have been addressed, and is the department admitting failure on its part in pursuit of private correctional services and as a result has already embarked on a process to review and consider other methods?
Thank you, House Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES:
Chairperson, yes, we will not be entering into any further private prison contracts, nor will we be renewing the two contracts - the Mangaung Correctional Facility and the Kutama- Sinthumule Correctional Facility. House Chair, whether this was a failure or not, it should be investigated in a balance of probabilities. Firstly, is that the arrangement between National Treasury and the Department of Correctional Services, as the two facilities were a pilot project, was to deliver infrastructure within a reasonable time, which is the question that hon members are asking here - what are we doing with
building more infrastructure? These two prisons, hon Chair, which can house 3025 inmates were built in a period of 18 months by the private sector on behalf of the state, which was a positive sign, because we are struggling. We have lots of public infrastructure prisons which we are not delivering on time. In Tzaneen, it took us almost 10 years. In Parys, it is taking long because of the huge portfolio of infrastructure that Public Works is dealing with. They have delivered what was intended to be delivered. What has become a challenge is the operationalization and the day-to-day management of the facilities by the private sector on behalf of the state, which brings a debate on whether the private sector can be able to manage prisons on behalf of the state, which further brings a debate as to whether government should be the only one that manages these types of facilities. In this period of these two facilities, it has become clear that the management of prisons can and must only be done by the state because of the security risks and several issues involved in the management of inmates and correctional facilities. The issue of delivery of infrastructure should be a separate issue out of this type of agreement and arrangements, which the private sector can still deliver in terms of the infrastructure. And it is against that background that we should not see this as a verdict on public- private partnerships, they can still work to deliver public
infrastructure, hand it over to the state, and the state must run it. And regarding prisons, I believe that should be the way to go. We should be the one who manages and runs the prisons and correctional facilities so that the risk and everything is carried by the state because of the nature of the service that is being rendered. It does work in certain aspects like the concessions in the national parks and so forth. It is works for the public-private partnership kind of relationship to run and operate, but in the prison and correctional facility environment, it has proven, it does not work. It has been proven by the number of breaches and notices that we have issued to these two private companies. It is against that background that we will not be renewing these contracts, and we will not be entering into any further kinds of concessionary contracts. And the costs are also exorbitant. Thank you, Chair.
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Minister in 2008, Wits Justice Project reported abuse of inmates at this facility, which was only acted upon in 2013 after riots, when you placed them under administration. It took four years. In August this year, another inmate committed suicide. Between 2017 and April 2023, G4S reported almost 5 000 security incidents at this facility. It took six years. Why did it take the Thabo Bester saga to
get to the department to wake up to the issues when you surely knew there were issues here for at least 15 years? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, as I have said, the department has acted on several occasions, and that’s why when you go into the file, you will find notices. It did not take us 15 or 20 years. You will find notices to the Mangaung Correctional Facility and the Kutama- Sinthumule Correctional. There are notices, there are fines, and so forth. As I said earlier on that these contracts are shockingly skewed in favour of the private sector companies.
Some of those matters that were mentioned by the hon member should have warranted an immediate termination, but because of how the contract is crafted and drafted, such egregious act warrants a notice of a fine, warrants you to give them an opportunity to correct the situation, and it warrants you to do this and that. So, that is why my predecessors only dealt with the issues of the fine. It became apparent to us that on a cumulative of all these breaches, we concluded that this situation between ourselves and the Mangaung Correctional Facility is untenable. It warrants an immediate termination of the contract and that is why we have now issued a notice because of the cumulative number of situations that have arisen. I also hope that the hon members will also see it in
the same way and put the necessary pressure to these companies to help government to provide these services on its own because we are ready to take over the Mangaung Correctional Centre as we speak, and that’s why we issued a notice. As and when the processes allow us to do so, we will take over because that is the intention to proceed to take over and run the facility on our own. And I do believe that in any situation, the government learns a lesson. This was a pilot project, and the purpose of the pilot project was to learn lessons. That is why it is called a pilot project. With a pilot project is that you learn whether this thing can work, and whether it cannot work, and what you believe works, you use, what you believe does not work, you do not use. And I can say here that with the 18 months that it took these two private companies to build the facilities, the government got value for its money. The infrastructure in that facility is mind-blowing, it is the best. What did not work is the operationalization of the facility to be operated and run by a private company. That is a lesson that the government has learned, and we now know that going forward, government must run and operate prison itself. The private sector can still be contracted to help us to build and construct but not to run the facility. That is why there were so many notices in terms of the breaches, and in terms of the issues that arose out of
the contract. That is the lesson that we are taking forward, and we believe we will be able to use this lesson to beneficial use for the benefit of the people of South Africa. Thank you, House Chair.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms W Ngwenya): Thank you very much, hon Minister, hon members, I have observed that the member that has asked a question, he asked the question and left, and I don’t think that he is disciplined when he does like that.
IsiZulu:
... kuyindelelo ...
English:
When you ask the question, wait for your answer. [Interjections.] Hon members, order, hon member, order! Hon members, we have come to the end of the questions to the Minister of Justice and ...
IsiZulu:
... Nokulungiswa Kwezimilo.
English:
I would like to thank the hon Minister for availing himself to answer the questions.
IsiZulu:
Siyabonga, mhlonishwa.
Question 233:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon Chairperson, to answer Question 233, in the 2022/23 financial year, 105 extortion cases were investigated by the Organized Crime Unit. Detective services and multi-disciplinary task teams that have been formed to deal with the matter and 149 arrest were made. During the period 01 June 2022 to 31 March 2023, the Economic Infrastructure Task Team, EITT made 18 arrests and investigated a total of six cases on those 18. SA Police Service therefore, effected 167 arrests and investigated 111 cases during 2022/23.
In the 2023/24 financial year, from 01 April 2023 to 23 September 2023, 30 extortion cases were investigated by Organized Crime Unit and relevant structures and 64 arrests were made. During the period 01 April 2023 to 30 June 2023, the Economic Infrastructure Task Team, EITT made 54 arrests in
respect of the existing cases that some of them are still caught going forward. Thanks Chair.
Ms S SHAIKH: Hon Deputy Chairperson, thank you very much, Minister for your response. Minister, we are encouraged that there are arrests, that these thugs are arrested. We hope that these arrests will serve as a deterrent and stop those who want to join the same criminal and enterprise. Minister, my question is, do you perhaps have information of whether any of those arrested were taken to court and the outcome of these cases? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, Chairperson, indeed, one very encouraging and a good day in the life of the police officer, is when the case you have been investigating is taken to court and somebody sentenced. Unfortunately, we will always respect that differentiation of responsibility between police, prosecution, judiciary and magistracy. But indeed yes, the question you are asking is that people that have been arrested last time, one gave that report, there were about 15 people that have been taken to court and their sentence. Up to this point, there are 27 of those people that have been taken to court. Although will be more pleased if years were higher.
Forty-three years have been given to those people that are
doing some sentences and some have paid the admission of guilt. But we are pleased that the judiciary and prosecution are beginning to take it seriously. One of those persons, one as a person, was given 15 years on these cases, which means we are all beginning to take these cases seriously. Thanks.
Mr T J BRAUTESETH: Deputy chairperson, I do apologise for not being there in person today. Unfortunately, I am struggling to shake the flu. Minister, you may be aware that I recently engaged the President in this very House on this very issue.
On that occasion, the President reported 70 arrests of construction and business mafiosi. Your cabinet colleague, Minister Zikalala, has gone on record and saying it is 200. Today you rise and say it is more than 200 arrests that have been made. Perhaps Minister, it is time that the three of you sit down for a coffee and come up with the actual figure. You really are embarrassing yourselves.
Minister, before you get in the arrest, you need an investigation. I have statistics for eThekwini Metropolitan Municipality alone that reflected of the 26 cases related to mafia cases between 2022 to date, only seven of the NPA or in the courts, four cases are undetected, three are under investigation for over a year and four have been withdrawn. A
particular Wentworth case, is that policeman and security stand ready for your statements? But the detective assigned is effectively ignoring them. Minister, I am more than happy to share with you the details of all these cases. Will you give a commitment today to making certain that all these cases relating to extortion are pursued vigorously and secondly, will you commit to taking action against those SAPS officials who are dragging their feet either out of fear or out of self- enrichment interest? I thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, Chairperson, he speaks of the cases nationally, but specifically ends up with Durban cases. Indeed, it would be foolish not to sit down with hon member or any other person that gives such information. But these are the figures that I am giving from the side of the police that the question here specifically asks or the answer gives to the question of how many people have been found guilty by the court of law. That is 27 and there are 54 cases that are ongoing which have been done by the SA Police Service. You know that those cases are in court records because we follow them. But the arrest indeed, for me it would be more than 200 cases that have been done in terms of the arrests and there are more than 700. So, call for a cup of coffee is always correct, including himself. Maybe he can also just get and
learn other things out of the sitting down with a cup of coffee which is accepted and admitted. That it will happen. Thanks.
Ms M DLAMINI: Chair, can I take the question on behalf of?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon member,
I will never ever have a problem with that but in future can you please arrange beforehand?
Ms M DLAMINI: Noted. Minister, the story of construction mafias can be traced back to the year of 2014, yet to date, even with your response, there is no tangible proof to show that you are dealing with the problem. In light of this, which investigations have been conducted which specifically look into the involvement of the ANC as an enabler of the form of extortion? What are the findings of such investigations? And if there are none, why not?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I do not know which ANC has enabled? But if that is so, there are quite many councillors of different organisations, including your organisation, that have been arrested. Do not push me there because I do not want to come to those things and I understand that one. It is just
all around that this thing of corruption is of societal matter, including everybody here has that kind of experience. But to say that there is no tangible evidence I do not know who have been listening. If you say 27 people have been found guilty by the court of law and are doing years in prison, as we speak, even including 15 years. I do not know what other tangible response that as the government, especially the police you could call it is tangible.
Tangible investigation of a case is when you are taken to court and the court finds that person guilty. To me, that is tangible enough. Thanks, Chair.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Chair, will hon Minister agree to take a zero stance against the construction mafia and the so- called business forums and by doing so, act in the best interest of the economy, lives and livelihoods. Thank you, chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Chairperson, indeed, we are doing just that in acting in the interest of the people of South Africa. That is why in the Committee of Business, led by the President, we have got this mainstream or the committee that deals with crime together with the business sitting down
dealing with those and sharing the skills, even the resources and all that.
Also Chair, the call has been made on the SA Police service, that they will have to go to the upper stairs dealing with the matters. Those that they live in Western Cape can agree that the recent arrests have gone really up in this province. We have really dealt with the guys when it comes to this. If you talk of your Ralph Stanfield, you will understand that you are dealing with the big, big guns. We are dealing with Medoc those are big guns. So, it is an issue.
There are guys that have been arrested here for the extortion and murder of 19 people coming out of that. So, there are people that have been engaged the police in shoot-outs and matters like that. So, indeed, we are working hard on that to see these things are stopped and one is pretty happy that even on those high level as I have said that, one of the top guys here has been in detention for 21 years, since 2021 and has not received any bail. The other one the bail was denied today. They will appear in court in February together with his wife, who are involved in a massive kind of extortion cases and all that. But besides that, this is one province where we discuss the matter at a very high level at the level of the
premier, the level of the mayor and all that, and we are working together on those matters. Yes, the question asks that, are you serious about it? The answer is yes.
Question 239:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The SA Police Service, SAPS, adopted the National Policing Strategy, NPS, in 2022, that also provides for an annual operation plan focussing on a five- pillars approach to address crime. One of the five pillars focusses specifically on proactive policing and improving the police visibility informed by the information analysis and crime intelligence. The implementation of the NPS was further intensified in 2023 when the increased crime prevention and combatting action plan was adopted under the leadership of the Ministry of Police together with the management.
The prevention strategy was implemented from 8 May 2023, and forms the basis for the Operation Shanela which was launched in July 2023. It includes the conducting of weekly high- density operation in priority station precincts, informed by the prevailing crime threat analysis. Operation Shanela entails the extension of Operation O Kae Molao [Where is the law?] to all the provinces, with the focus on the operation
being the reduction of violent crime including the trio crime armed robberies and the cash-in transit, CIT.
The resources constraints necessitated that the SAPS uses alternative methods to increase police visibility through community-based partnership. The Integrated Crime Prevention Community-Oriented Policing, ICPCOP, also focusses on the enhancement of the services and community policing oriented approach to policing, which is an on-going process with the SAPS. The SAPS in consultation with the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service, CSPS, has prioritised the enhancement of functioning of the Community Police Forum, CPF, so as to improve the liaison between the SAPS and the communities.
The finalisation of the election of the CPF at all levels has been in compliance with the President’s state of the nation address, Sona, and the requirement has been completed. The SAPS has also focussed on the implementation of the community in blue to such an extent that R70 million has been budgeted for the work of the CPFs, and indeed, the equipment has been bought and the working together of the police and the CPFs is one of the improved areas of policing. Therefore, as the police, we believe that we are doing everything that we are supposed to do, including the most important area of policing
where the working relationship between the police and the communities is improved. Thanks, Chair.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Minister, here’s my problem, if you look at the SAPS annual reports between 2018 and 2022, the indication is that there is a reduction of 17 000 members between those reports. This is despite the fact that the ANC manifesto in 2019 promised - and I’ve got it here, your colleagues hate it when I do this because the truth hurts - however, this manifesto says on page 52 that, “we will increase the police visibility in our communities by increasing the number of men and women in uniform.” You made that promise in 2019.
Why don’t you just submit today that you have failed as the police minister, and your political party has also failed the thousands of victims of crime in South Africa due to your empty election promises? Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: I don’t know where you are living because if you were living in South Africa your information would be better when it comes to policing. In the Sona, the President made the undertaking to say, yes, there has been a reduction of police, but that can be corrected. That correction started last year where for the first time in the
history of South Africa 10 000 police were trained in one intake, that is last year. This year as we speak, 10 000 of them are in the college, and on 15 December, the President will take them out of the college.
Next year, another 10 000 of them will be in the college, and then the decision will be taken about what do we do, going forward. Indeed, there was an admission that there was a reduction for whatever reason, but the correction as we speak is there. In three years, there is 30 000 training of the police. Not only that, but the National Commissioner of Police has also issued an invitation to the experienced detectives, and almost 1 000 of them are rejoining the police force to be able to work with the weakened detectives.
So, to say that nothing has been done when so much has been done, like when you train 30 000 of them in only three year is not true. Thanks, Deputy Chair.
Mr T S C DODOVU: Hon Deputy Chair, I apologise that I can’t swich on because the gadget is terrible because of the load shedding. Before my follow-up question, I wanted to say, thank you very much Minister Cele for your comprehensive response.
Indeed, what you are saying that South Africans know that
underpinning the conviction of the President, yourself and the government, is to ensure that we do visible policing.
You recruit talent from young men and women who are continuously recruited and joining the police service. We thank you very much for that. As I’ve said, the South Africans can see what is happening. Now, in respect of the visibility in policing, specifically the Operation Shanela, can you just elaborate on those particular details. In which precision is it being done by the government? Thank you very much, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, visibility is one big portion of policing. So, we’ve decided that it cannot be done in one province like Gauteng where they have Operation O Kae Molao. We have expanded that, and we have called it Operation Shanela. The analysis has told us that the real criminal days in the Republic of South Africa is between Thursday and Monday morning with parties, drinking and all those kinds of things happening, the violent crime also happens, especially murder and rape.
So, for those days, we have intensified the presence and the availability of police in both the stations, the streets and
the saturating towns. Also, the station commanders should not be taken in over the weekend, they should be part of their policing. Therefore, we are there. This also increases the possibility of prevention rather than being reactionary, and indeed, the statistics are beginning to tell us that we are getting there.
Deputy Chairperson, since we have launched on 8 May until last week, I think that is Monday, we have arrested 174 000 people in South Africa, that’s why hon Minister Lamola is having a serious problem, it is because we have arrested 174 000 people in three months. This is quite a big number of outstanding warrants of arrest for serious crime like car theft, murder, house breaking and others. The arrests included the top guys that I have spoken about.
You will realise that the question on high crime like trio crime and those crimes that brings fear to the South Africans are reduced, if you are there walking on the streets in the townships. The Operation Shanela has really given hope to the people of South Africa, and it has also given the police the pleasure of working in crime prevention areas as we begin to see the outcomes of the Operation Shanela.
We believe that with more young police who are coming from the colleges and are thrown on the streets, their visibility will further be improved as we are using new methods of not just working around prescribed times and methods of working, but also making ourselves available, especially in those stations that are on top 30 those stations that are high on criminality. We are working very hard on that issue, that includes working very closely with the communities.
As I’ve said that we have budgeted R70 million for the first time ever, and we are also buying the equipment for the communities to be able to work. Last week only, we have given the province of Gauteng 17 cars for the CPF committees, and this is for the first time ever. Therefore, we are improving our working relationship with the communities, private sector and businesses. Thanks.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Minister, understaffing at the SAPS remains a serious concern and hinderance to police visibility. My question to you is whether there are any planned consistent recruitment of young women and men into the SAPS over the next five years to address this matter? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, I think I have just given the three-year medium-term framework, MTF, as the President have announced that last year, we have put 10 000 police in college and they are out, this year on the 15 we are putting another 10 000 and next year we are putting another
10 000, and I’m sure, what you are asking about five years, we usually deal with these things with the MTF of three year, surely, we will be there to deal with matters going forward, not just on visibility, but on further skilling.
Deputy Chairperson, we have just produced 13 special young people dealing with the drone piloting. We have bought extra drones as the South African police, and we have sent 13 more young people who are training to be drone pilots. We are not just dealing with the numbers, we are dealing with extra skilling of the young South Africans that are dealing with the police. There has been a cry that we are too limiting since we were training from 18 to 30 years. We have now relaxed the category a little bit, and we are now training up to 35 years.
They wanted more, and we said no, this is not an old age home organisation. At least, you must be there young and fit to be able to jump around. Therefore, we are trying to open more space for the South Africans. Indeed, it could not be only
one’s response on this, but we are working on what will we do with the provinces, by sending these young South Africans back to them in order for them to work in them. Thanks Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Where am I now, am I on the EFF?
Mr M J MAGWALA: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP: Yes, hon Magwala, I’m
sorry with the way the changes have been affected. It makes me a bit confused. Over to you, EFF.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Deputy Chair, I understand that you love me so much, and when you come to my name, you always get confused.
Deputy Chair, let me greet the members in the House and welcome both the Ministers of Justice and Police back to South Africa, I see that you’ve both been in a training ground in France. I spotted you in one of the pictures, either than that, Minister, which measures have been put in place to ensure that the police presence in high crime areas is equally distributed consistently and sustained over time, rather than being temporary or sporadic? Secondly, what steps of
intervention have been taken to provide additional resources and training for police officers working in high crime areas considering the unique challenges they face? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chair, Johannesburg in Gauteng is cold, so, one has got a little bit of cold coming down here. The permanence, dealing with what the hon member asked is on what we are doing now, training more members to be sent to stations. Indeed, I would agree with you that it is not very much adequate in terms of the numbers that are at the police stations to respond to the visibility of the high crime areas, but indeed, the top 30 most criminal stations are of the priority in the Republic of South Africa. You also asked a question, why do we continue with the ad hoc kind of thing? It is not just ad hoc, it is to respond to some kind of analysis of that particular crime in that area, to be able to respond to.
South Africa has got serious capabilities, very high skilled levels, medium-levels and the ordinary skills that we have in South Africa. If the crime is vicious and violent, you will have to respond as such with the members you have. For instance, if there are people who crosses the border at
Manguzi, Umhlbuyalingana, we’ll have to send the relevant structures there, as we have done, and when you go to Umhlbuyalingana today, the people will tell you that they have never experienced such peace after we have sent those structures. Therefore, you respond accordingly. Even if the police can be enough in terms of numbers.
The time will come where we will have to send a specialist kind of people there on which you can’t make the whole service specialised. There will also be ordinary policing, and if it not so, that is why sometimes when the chips are down and when criminals sit down and plot as they did in one of the houses in Makhado, they were plotting to go and bomb, not just the cash heist, but to bomb the depot of money. There was a shooting there where 19 people were shot at by the police. So, in such areas, you would send those specialists. So, this ad hoc response will forever be there, even when the police are adequate in those particular areas.
There will be a day where you will need people who will face that particular crime. This is also the matter with the Zama Zamas who are hijacking mines. We have sent those specialists to Rustenburg in the North West, where people with lots of firearms were arrested, and also in Krugersdorp, they were
having lots of firearms and the boxes of ammunition. So, it will forever be a combination of adequacy and also responding to the cases as they appear in that particular space at that particular time. Thanks.
Question 234:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The management of the SA Police Service in the Western Cape has deployed additional personnel and physical resources to Gugulethu, Khayelitsha and Mitchells Plain. The metro police and the law enforcement officers form part of this integrated approach. Yes, in relation to the available resources in the detective service environment of the Western Cape crime intelligence has sufficient capacity to provide for both reactive and proactive intelligence in dealing with the mass shooting. Provincial organised crime investigation and provincial serious environment crime, murder and robbery unit are resourced and capacitated to investigate shooting incidents. The investigation thereof is integrated with crime intelligence to address all possible leads, successful investigation and the arrest of suspect will influence the future incident.
The current threat and the risk assessment as conducted by crime intelligence point towards extortions as the main reason
for the mass shooting in the identified areas. Crime intelligence has identified the individuals involved in the extortion and mass shootings and are being addressed through network operations and project by the detectives and the Directorate for Priority Crime Investigation, DPCI. Thank you, Deputy Chair.
Ms A D MALEKA: Deputy Chairperson, through you to the Minister, thank you for the reply. Minister, it is encouraging to learn that this has been a deployment of additional resources in these areas. Can the Minister assure our communities across the country that those involved in these colours and cowardly acts will be haunted down and arrested?
Thank you, Deputy Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, as I explained that under Operation Shanela in three months 174 000 people have been arrested in South Africa, in three months. However, specifically with the question facing Western Cape, two or three weeks ago, one made a very painful announcement that in a week 129 people were killed in Western Cape alone, and basically in the places that will be in the Cape Flats. As such, we have increased the policing, especially in Gugulethu, around Mitchells Plain and ... [Inaudible.] ... but since
looking at that wake of the killing, 51 people have been arrested, linked to that 129 people. Therefore, 51 people have been arrested.
Indeed, we would have loved to have arrested more people, specifically with the shooting where our member of the SA Police Service attacked to working with the Deputy Minister, who we buried two weeks ago. We would have loved to have found. We haven’t found those, but it does encourage that at least in those two weeks killing spree, 51 of those people have been arrested. Thank you.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Deputy Chair, through you to hon Minister, the question pertains to combating township mass shootings.
Now, Minister, according to an article by News 24, and I’m quoting:
The South African police classify a mass shooting as an incident in which three or more people are shot with a firearm. Available evidence indicates that mass shootings in South Africa are mostly perpetrated by organised criminal groups, such as gangs, with motives often linked to competition over territory and resources. And that
shooting incidents have a tendency to result in reprisal attacks.
Now, Minister, I know that in the question it also refers to the Western Cape, but with regards to the mass shooting and gangsterism, that is the incline in South Africa. Very often, mass shootings are the outcome of conflicts between vigilantes and gangsters, areas like Jouberton ... [Inaudible.] ... in Matlosana, Ikageng and ... [Inaudible.] ... in the J B Marks in the North West province have never had real issues with gangs, but that has escalated over the few past few years. My question, Minister, are there any plans in place to address the increase in gang related attacks all over the country, not only in the Western Cape, and sometimes that results in mass shootings. And if yes, if you could please share those details with us. Thank you, Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes indeed, Deputy Chairperson, that’s why though the antigang unit was started and launched in Western Cape, it has spread to other places. Those that they come from Gqeberha they’d know that in the northern areas we have an antigang unit. Those that they come from Gauteng, places like Westbury, Eldos and all we do have the antigang unit and somewhere again in Durban. Yes, there is that
antigang unit. However, I don’t know whose article is that. It cannot be 100% correct that the gangsters and the organised mass shooting always happen. Indeed, it does happen.
However, there are people that they just do it without being organised. We have two mass shootings where people they fight in the shebeen and somebody goes home, gets the gun, comes back and shoots everybody. We would not say that that one is organised. It’s quite and reactive in that particular area for whatever reason why South Africans should think that way, that kind of response is appropriate to shoot and kill everybody, including women and everybody that would be in that particular area. We are looking at that including increasing the police as you mentioned that there are other areas where this mass shooting, but indeed the home of mass shooting will be three provinces. This is Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and this province where the mass shooting is also the part of extortion where people they are fighting over territory, both extortion territory and the drug territory. That’s why there are quite several people that have been arrested and some of them have engaged the police in shooting after they are chased by the police and the police will respond accordingly. We are not just looking in one province, we’re looking around the country and they’re responding accordingly. Thanks, Deputy Chair.
Ms M DLAMINI: Minister, mass shootings have become more frequent in the townships. Earlier this month we experienced yet another mass shooting in Mfuleni, Cape Town, where three men were killed while sitting in their car, hours after you held a press conference to talk about mass shootings in the Western Cape. Have any of those who have participated in the mass shootings been found? And secondly, are there any investigations on where the supply of weapons used for these shootings found? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, indeed, there are quite several people that have been arrested for mass shooting around the country. I don’t want to try to deviate or change the thinking of understanding, but we find the mass shooting being some kind of international phenomenon if you look at it. I haven’t got the latest figures, but in March there were 11 mass shooting in South Africa, almost starting from January, there were 11, and then in the United States there were 404 mass shooting by that time. I’m sure you saw last week a huge mass shooting that has taken place in the United States, where 18 people were killed.
Therefore, the question of having arrested those people, indeed, some of them have been arrested and we have not
specifically arrested the Mfuleni one that happened last week. However, there is quite a number though I can’t remember exact number of those people that are court going for the mass shooting. I think one big mass shooting that made news was the one that happened at Orlando in the shebeen at Nomzamo place. Unfortunately, those people were arrested. However, all people that were supposed to give evidence withdrew because they said that they were scared for their lives. Therefore, for that reason, the cases have been temporarily withdrawn because the witnesses, all of them came, and they cancelled their availability to deal with the cases.
However, we are working on that case and the one other problem is that these mass shooting, they make a lot of noise, as it showed when they happen, but there is a very little response on the world of media when those people have been found.
Therefore, in the minds of South Africans, it’s forever staying as if nothing has been done. However, even when you go for the briefing and all that, it doesn’t give the prominence that it gives when it happens. Maybe those are other things that South Africans are robbed in understanding that more than 90% they would have been the response to this mass shooting and people are arrested. Thanks.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Sorry, it’s Frederick, Deputy Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): The person that wrote the letter, said Mr Frikkie Badenhorst will take the question to the Minister, Rikus Badenhorst ... [Inaudible.]
Mr F J BADENHORST: ... [Inaudible.] ... which you like it’s fine. Minister, yeah, and thank you for that answer. Thank you, you’ve let into my last question that I wanted to ask you on this topic, because it seems like the police have lost all capability and capacity to gather intelligence on the ground as the crime happens. I’ll give you an example on the Cape Flats recently, I think it was the last weekend. It was last week of September or early in October. The City of Cape Town has got a ShotSpotter technology and they’ve picked up in two hours. They’ve picked up 177 shots in 58 separate incidents in two hours. That and you’ve ... [Inaudible.] ... to that there’s collaboration between your department and law enforcement agencies at the metro. That information with that City of Cape Town’s investment in the technology was relayed to SA Police Service, SAPS, over that weekend.
Therefore, that leads me to my question, Minister, when will you as SAPS start following the example of a DA-run City of Cape Town by using technology like ShotSpotter, like drones and like body cameras, as modern crime fighting techniques, especially in gang infested areas, not just on the Cape Flats, but also at ... [Inaudible.] ... Park, Reiger Park, Hillbrow, the northern areas of Nelson Mandela Bay, etcetera, etcetera. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Minister! I’m sorry, Mr Badenhorst, it’s Rikus Badenhorst not Frikkie.
Mr F J BADENHORST: Yeah, that’s Rikus comes from Frederik Jacobus. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, on the question of the arrest and information, I’ve just given information that 51 people have been arrested. Since those killings, including those ... [Inaudible.] ... the technology you talk about, Cape Town is one city that is identified as for collaboration between SAPS and the local government in terms of ... [Inaudible.] ... the safer cities. I’ll really give the due where it deserves. They have done well in terms of technology, but we hold in this
House again when I’ve given you the number that the SAPS have trained and the drones that we have bought to South African police that you are utilising. Therefore, now you ask the question when we are going to start. I’ve given you the information that that is happening as we go forward.
The ShotSpotter, we have some few of them in Gqeberha where they’ve been put there for some time. Without pulling down the good efforts that the City of Cape Town is doing the problem we have is that they’re very much in areas where they might be less-needed than the areas where they’re most-needed. I’ve sat down, I’ve looked at the cameras and all the kind in the City of Cape Town, you’ll find that areas where we really need them, they are red because either they are not available or either they are not working in those particular areas, and the areas that they might be less needed they are really green.
However, we have spoken that by the way, the City of Cape Town through J P Smith, we’re really engage, and talk and work on those matters. He is one of the persons we work well, especially the member of executive council, MEC, on raising those matters. Those are the things that we have raised with them. Anyway, Western Cape is not the Republic of Western Cape is a part of South Africa. That’s why even the police we have
sent more resources in Western Cape more than any other place in the Republic of South. When 5 000 people were trained in 2018-19 before coronavirus disease, Covid - 5 000 in the country - 1 200 were sent in Western Cape. The rest of the country took only 3 800. Last year we sent 1 100 in Western Cape out of 10 000. This year we are sending 2 600 in Western Cape. I’m saying ... [Interjections.]
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Can you
have order, please. Just learn to listen. Don’t listen with your mouth.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: It’s not only you that you’re dealing with resources in Western Cape. We’re all dealing with resources.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Mr
Badenhorst, it’s very rude what you are doing really. Speak through me if you want, know that it’s rude what you are doing. The Minister is responding to your question.
Mr F J BADENHORST: I’m sorry, but he’s talking about physical people.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order, sit
down.
IsiZulu:
Ayihlale phansi ibamb’umthetho.
English:
Mr F J BADENHORST: ... [Inaudible.] ... you guys and say what you want, you can’t do it.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Sit down
and stop talking. Minister, you don’t have to respond anymore he doesn’t want to hear you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, I’ve explained that the question of technology is a national approach that there are 10 identified cities where the technology will be used to create the safer cities, Cape Town is one of those cities. Durban, there is technology. The only thing is that maybe others don’t shout more than others because they regard themselves as doing their work in the Republic of South Africa. I’ve just given information now that we we’ve trained pilots, but we’ve also bought a lot of drones not in Western Cape that are working in the whole country, including sending
them to Western Cape if it is needed. Therefore, technology is for the South Africa more than rather than the Western Cape.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Deputy Chairperson, I will not be taking this nonsense.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Minister, please, can I call you to order. Can I call you to order? Can I call you to order?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: There’s no ... Please protect us because if you don’t, I’ll do it myself.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I am
protecting you. I have been protecting you. Hon Badenhorst! Hon Badenhorst! Hon Badenhorst! Hon Badenhorst, I will call you again, and if I have to call you again, I will request you to leave the House because the Minister came here to our House to respond to questions. If you are not satisfied, you can ask through the Chair for follow-ups or for point of order, but you don’t start engaging in a dialogue. You don’t, not even
with me. You don’t. You don’t. There is no order here. In this case, there is no order. Hon Aucamp, I’m not allowing you.
There is no order.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Deputy Chairperson, you are out of the order. Hon Deputy Chairperson, you didn’t know what I want to say. I’m rising on a point of order, may I, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Mr Z MKIVA: You are not recognised. You are not recognised, sit down.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Deputy Chairperson, may I be recognised please?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I really
want to recognise you, but if you want to defend something that is not point of order and hon Badenhorst is doing, I will never accept it.
Mr W A S AUCAMP: Hon Deputy Chairperson, I’m not defending what hon Badenhorst is doing. What I’m asking you is just to be consistent because hon Badenhorst addressed the Minister without doing it through you, but the Minister also addressed
hon Badenhorst without doing it through you. Therefore, be consistent, please. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): That is not the point of order. That is not the point of order. May I proceed. Am I allowed by you to proceed? Hon Minister, we come now to Question 246 as asked by hon Motsamai and you’ve got five minutes to respond.
Question 246:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: The community policing forums, CPFs, serve as a co-ordinating and community ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
Minister, can you please speak to the mic. Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... representative structures, established ...
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Order, hon
members all of you!
The MINISTER OF POLICE: ... [Inaudible.] ... Subsection (1) of the SA Police Service Act. The CPFs must assist the SA Police
Service, SAPS, to firstly, establish and maintain a partnership between community and the Saps. Secondly, promote communication between the SAPS and the community. Thirdly, promote co-operation between SAPS and the community in fulfilling the needs of the community regarding policing.
Fourthly, improve the rendering of the police service in the community at the national, provincial and the local including the district level. The fifth one is to improve transparency in the SAPS and accountability to the community. Lastly, is to promote problem identification and solving by the SAPS and the relevant community.
The active participation by the CPF should be through crime awareness and other community projects in collaboration with the SAPS where their safety would not be compromised. The CPFs and boards countrywide have completed their election of members and the SAPS is assisting with skills development of members of the community policing approach.
The SAPS has allocated a total of R70 million to support the functioning of the CPFs in 2023-24 financial year. The budget was equitably distributed to all provinces. This budget is currently being used to procure Items equipment to support
CPFs wherever they are. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Setswana:
Rre K MOTSAMAI: Ke a leboga, Motlatsamodulasetulo.
English:
Hon Minister, community police forums often face a number of challenges such as inadequate resources. One find that the Police work better with the rich white neighbourhoods rather than the poor ones, so much so that many Police forum members are being target and killed fighting crime in the townships. In terms of resources: What assistance is provided to the township-based forums in terms of SAPS support staff and vehicles so as to improve their capacity?
Setswana:
Ke a leboga.
IsiZulu:
UNGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Siyabonga, Baba u-Motsamai Motsamai kumbuzo othi iluphi usizo olunganikezwa ukuthi kusetshenzwe nama-community policing forums.
English:
As I have said, for the first time ever in the history of CPFs we have budgeted R70 million and R20 million is for Gauteng.
The next provinces that got bigger shares are the Western Cape and KwaZulu-Natal whom each got R13 million. Then we go down as per smaller provinces according to their population.
However, the big share went to Gauteng and R13 million went to the following big provinces. So, provinces must work in assisting the CPFs.
Last week I was at the Ace Ntsoelengoe Stadium in Mohlakeng, where they were launching the safety of Gauteng. We gave 17,
12 seater cars to different CPFs. Seventeen brand new cars to different CPFs to be able to move as they wish rather than beg from the station commanders that we want to move from point a to point b and all that. The money is for that, but also to find them offices that would independent from the Police and buy the equipment like laptops and computers and all that kinds of things. Also to look after their lives when it is cold and raining they get umbrellas and all that.
What we have not done is to give them cash stipend, but to keep them to work as such. We hope the money will work and not
be rolled over because indeed it is needed when it comes to especially those poor communities.
Unfortunately, in some communities - the Western Cape being one of them - they have decided to side line the CPFs and decided to create their structure like the neighbourhood watch which there is nothing wrong with it. However, it would be better to work with those that are in the legislation and the Constitution and if you want to add resources for that that is fine.
Unfortunately communities will find resources especially affluent communities. Some communities are not affluent enough to be able to assist on those, but we try to integrate wherever is possible to integrate that they work together not to be in competition. So that if they work together as the Police and all other policing structures indeed you can see the results impacting in the reduction of crime in those areas.
Simple put in answering the question we have responded to the cry of the CPFs by providing these resources as the Police properly budgeted for and giving them to be able to assist so
that they can function and reduce crime together with the Police. Thanks.
Mr D R RYDER: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, good afternoon. I listened very carefully to your original answer to the original question. However, the reality Sir is that the Police have lost control with too many overpaid generals sitting in their offices and not enough boots on the ground.
So, under-resources these poor police around the country have come to rely on the support from communities. Not only for supplying information and doing oversight to the police station resources as envisioned by the Act as you pointed out, but now in the actual execution of their duties which you alluded to in your unscripted answer to the second follow-up question.
Minister, the South Africans rely on the community policing and neighbourhood watchers to keep them safe because the police services cannot.
On 19 October, SA Police Service issued a directive – Directive No 45/11/4 which makes reference to the use of private fire arms by members of the CPFs, community in blue and neighbourhood watchers. The directive appear to instruct
your officers to arrest volunteers who are found to be carrying private their fire arms while protecting their communities.
So, not only are you not giving enough resources to volunteers, but you now also removing their rights for them to protect themselves and use their own resources.
Minister did you authorise that directive? And do you really believe that it is desirable to remove the right to carry firearms from volunteers who are protecting themselves and their communities? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well to start with, the community policing is not just the South African phenomenon, it is an international phenomenon. No police service or force in the world can work maximally if they are not working with the communities. Fortunately, some of us we spend some time dealing with the community policing issues where it originates. It originates in London. So, we spend some time there working and understanding how communities can work. It is a fact. You do not work with the communities. So, it cannot be an issue of the Police failing to do the work. Actually they would be failing to do the work if they do not work with
the communities. There they will not win and they will not see the light of the day if they cannot work with the communities. That is a must. Besides being legislated and otherwise, but the proper policing it will. That is number one.
Secondly, the gun issue in South Africa. There are laws of how you carry a gun around. So, for instance you would know that when you carry the gun and as a private citizen you cannot display your gun wherever you move. Your gun would have to be hidden. So, if then those structures that you are talking about, they carry their guns as if they are the Police or law- enforcement agencies who are allowed to carry their guns openly, that is breaking the law.
What do you do with a person breaking the law? Either is your friend or your foe if you break the law one thing must happen to you, you must be arrested. So, it is not the threat of arresting, it is the warning that it would be good not to reach that level. So, do not do one, two and three. Friendly warning for people not to break the law which I think is better than allow them to break the law and arrest them.
Otherwise we will continue to work with them, but themselves as the South African citizens must stick within the laws of
the Republic of South Africa. Thank you very much, hon Deputy Chairperson.
Mr N M HADEBE: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, adding to the resources that you have mentioned: Are there any plans by your department to ensure the formal training than equipping of CPFs? If not why is this the case because considering that CPFs play a crucial role in assisting SAPS in the day-to-day protection of people and prevention of crimes? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes indeed, Deputy Chairperson. I think I have answered that question several times that we have availed resources to the CPFs. Part of those resources is the training of which it has happened and it is continuing with the CPFs. Indeed we have arranged and availed the resources.
The question is: Do we have intention? We have gone beyond intention and actually put operation of giving money and developing some areas even the curriculum training the CPFs through the new boards and committees that have been elected and they are taken through the training. Indeed we are doing that. Thanks, Deputy Chairperson.
Ms B M BARTLETT: Hon Deputy Chairperson and hon Minister, I know that this question is been asked many a times. However, I just want to know the community police forums are indeed a very important component in the fight and against crime. We are encouraged that they are getting some funding from SAPS.
Hon Minister, what role can provincial and local government play in supporting the communing policing forums so that not only the Police must deal with that and what can you do about that?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well unfortunately, I cannot speak on behalf of these other structures. However, Deputy Chairperson, I know that Gauteng is doing a lot in supporting the CPFs and the community in blue. If you go to Gauteng, you will find a lot of those groupings of people that are wearing jackets, having torches and umbrellas as it rains budgeted by the provincial government and also extending the capabilities and capacity by getting those structures that are not necessarily structures of the CPFs like the community in blue and the neighbourhood watch. However, they would forever, understand that constitutionally and legislatively the community policing forum are these structures.
They would do different things. I know that in other provinces they try to provide the office space and so forth. However, we have concentrated on ourselves as the Police in South Africa by providing the resources that I have spoken so much about.
However, also we do make a call that at all levels all of us we must work with these structures.
What usually is not taken care off, are the rural areas when we all deal with these structures.
Hon Deputy Chairperson, we have launched and created what is known as Rural Traditional Policing, RTP, where we go to the traditional courts of amakhosi and we ask the space to put the Police there even where there is no police station so that people do not walk very long distances as they do other things with amakhosi, we avail ourselves as the Police to have done it in several places especially in Limpopo and the Eastern Cape.
So, we have said as the Police, we have set down with Congress of Traditional Leaders of SA, Contralesa, and the leadership is very happy with it. We continue to work as such to say traditional and the rural communities should not be left behind as we deal with issues of security, which most of the
time and even most of the members forget to speak on behalf of those communities. However, SA Police Service we have taken that on board. Thank you, hon Deputy Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Before we
continue Minister, you can take a proper sip of water. I can see that your throat is a bit dry.
Yes. We will now come to Question 242, as asked by the hon C F B Smit. Hon Minister.
Question 242:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: No, police stations are not rewarded based on the reported incidents of crime that is recorded at the police station and whether the crime rate increases or decreases. It is essential to recognise that reported levels of crime can be influenced by a variety of factors other than law enforcement efforts alone. There is a well-established relationship between socioeconomic conditions and crime rates and the addressing of socioeconomic conditions within the country and then there must be addressed directly related to those issues.
In alienation, the SAPS is required to address issues that are related to the prevailing socioeconomic conditions, which include peaceful and violent public protest, increasing level of crime and violence, the policing of undocumented persons, the policing of intimate crime over which SAPS has very little.
The mechanism that are used to access performance of police stations include a range of indicators that relate to visible policing, the investigation of crime and the management of support environment. The increases of or decreases in crime recorded by the police stations affected the overall assessment.
The SA Police Service reward system includes the national excellence rewards which provide for performance by a police station to be rewarded based on the specific assessment criteria that must be verified and endorsed by assessment committees at district, provincial and national level. Similar mechanisms apply to reward mechanism for individual or team performance. Thanks, Chair.
Mr C F B SMIT: Hon Minister, thank you for your answer and partially you said that it does play a role in terms of
bonuses and so forth. The perception out there that is created by the police is that it is actually based on the lower the statistics the better reward they get because, Minister, police officers do everything in their power to avoid opening cases brought to them to try and reflect as low crime statistics as possible as the bonuses depend on it. And that is the information that was given through to myself. I, myself had cases like that where police officers will try their best to convince me not to open a case but to rather take the other route. This includes, the refusing to open cases, fast- tracking the process for opening up cases or convincing people not to open cases. These gives a false view for the reality out there and allow criminals to get away with crimes. Why do not rather focus more on police stations based on the preposition of cases they actually solved and enforcing law and order? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, one swallow does not make a summer. I don’t which station did you go to. I don’t know how many. But we have 1 154 stations in the Republic of South Africa, 1 154. I don’t know how many you went to. But besides, we have lot of mechanism of checking if they are doing what they are supposed to do. One very enable body is Secretariat. Secretariats job is to support the Ministry of Police by going
to the police stations to check if they do what they are supposed to do. They do that and give the report. I would then invite the hon member to give me specifically that station so that we can go and evaluate the police station if they do their work including approaching the member to give us extra information because he spoke about the perception. So, it will help us to do that so that we don’t allow our police stations to do things that they are not supposed to do.
But many police stations are staffed with good members of the SA Police Service. Maybe that’s why again for poor Minister, my colleague, is complaining that at the present moment there are 44% overpopulation of the Correctional Services in the Republic of South Africa. I can assure you, those people that are there in those facilities, they don’t go there voluntarily. It’s because somebody takes them and I am not sure about the number but I was told that out of the prison population in South Africa 21 000 of them might be life savers. All of us we know here that for us to get life, it is because someone arrested you and did a very good investigation for the judge or the magistrates to say I give you, life sentence. So, they are there. They are doing their work under trying circumstances. Sometimes they are also exposing their lives because these criminals now they go there and want to go
toe-to-toe with the police. I am very glad that at the present moment all those skirmishes police are really winning them on the ground. But that does not mean that we don’t have rotten potatoes. We do like every part of the community in the Republic whether is a clergy, whether is a church, whether the politicians, whoever, they would find that. That’s why maybe there are judges that are arrested. There are magistrates that are arrested. So, all of us, we are on the dish of having that problem. But to say that then police are creating the environment to increase the crime for those few stations I would not agree. We have good members the SA Police putting their lives at the exposer so that they are able to work with the South Africans. Bit indeed, I will invite not only the members, whoever is listening if you believe that police are not doing their work please come to us so that we assessed that and we take proper steps on the particular matter.
Thanks, Chair.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
members, it doesn’t mean if you are not satisfied with the response you must shout now because what will you achieve. Let’s use the method that is at our disposal to get the responses which you think is a proper response. I think the Minister also even have an open invitation to whoever can come
with the information and then he is prepared to work with you. Let’s us work with one another. Please, hon Ndongeni, next follow up.
Ms N NDONGENI: Minister, you are very right, there is a connection between the socioeconomic conditions and crime rate. Police station is affluent area who would be beneficiaries of the rewards system suggestion by this question.
My question is, would it not assist the fight against crime if resources can be redirected or shifted from areas with a low crime to where there is an increase in crime? Thank you, Deputy Chairperson.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, Deputy Chairperson, that is true. People might think that violence is an inherited black thing. It is not. I say that because I spent a lot of time in this province maybe sometimes more than any other province especially those three provinces that are problematic when it comes to crime, your Gauteng, KwaZulu-Natal and here.
Unfortunately, Eastern Cape has just joined to be more problematic.
Since I came here, I have never picked up a dead body in an affluent area. I have never done that. I have never picked up a dead body in Camps Bay. I have never picked up a dead body in Constantia and all those pleases. You picked those dead bodies where people are really economical stressed. So, that would be a problem. Therefore, it is important that social conditions must be changed at all levels for people to live on the above kind of better life than any other place. So, that would be one reason.
Indeed, there was a finding by Pikoli Commission specifically here to say there would have to be a removal of resources from those areas that are affluent and less crime. We have done that here in Cape Town. We have not done only that. Cape Town is the only province until March this year, it’s the only province where we have every month sent 200 extra police coming from the different provinces and extra cars in this province and paid a lot of money. If you think how much we paid for this province for extra policing, I will give you the figures so that you will realise how much we have all done.
But also, we have begun to do that internally to move the resources from where there are less needed to the place where they are highly needed.
So, we would have loved and we are working with the provinces but there are areas where, for instance, when our analysis begun to tell us that the central area of Western Cape was giving us a problem which is not only Western Cape. The central police stations in the country are giving problems either is Gauteng and Joburg even here. Immediately here, 100 of law enforcements were put in the city centre which is not the thing that you see every day happening in the places where it happens. So, it is important that the spreading and the sharing of resources is according to the need where they supposed to happen. But indeed, not only here in the Western Cape and in other areas we are working on that to shift whatever is there. But basically overall, we must increase the capabilities and the numbers of policing in the Republic of South Africa as more training is taking place. Thanks.
Mr S F DU TOIT: Hon Minister, rewarding police stations, that’s a broad topic if one doesn’t look at the initial question that was posed. But Minister, we are currently sitting at a dire situation where allegedly the top structure in provinces like, for instance, the North West province, the top police structure, will either retire or leave the force in the next four to five years and then police stations will definitely sitting in a situation where police officials which
initially had very good training issues will need to be filled by other officials that also had training but not necessarily went through the ranks as it used to happened in the past.
Hon Minister, I want to know how do any measure of skills transfer that is effectively and actively taking place in the country to ensure that police stations will in fact be rewarded by competent, skilled leaders in these different areas and specially in the North West province that can serve the community and combat crime efficiently? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Well, I don’t know which past the member is talking about. I don’t know which past because he said as it is happening in the past. I would definitely would not want to go there. Well, it is not defined, but the past I know with policing in South Africa I will definitely would not want to go back there and I will definitely not take police to the past, never.
Therefore, the changes that he talks about it will be the changes where all members are given opportunity for actual training not because you can donner [beat up.] more than other persons but because you can ... For some it will take fewer years to achieve that. For some would take longer years to
achieve. Indeed, we have to open the space for those that want to grow in the organisation.
Chairperson, amongst the people that we are recruiting, last month we had what is known as showing the talent of the police. We brought the graduates at Ulundi Stadium with their regalia. Some of them have three of the university degrees. We have some few with PhD in the police. We have some few with masters in the police. We have some few with BSc and so on.
So, if those people have BSc ... [Interjections]... If you bring them with that kind of basics, they will stay shorter in the rank because they have achieved so much in the short position.
This training as we speak now at the colleges, 550 of those who are in training were taken on the basis of the degrees they have. There are law graduates’ students. There are those with BSc we will be working with here in our laboratories and all forensic. We have all those capabilities.
So, you are going to expect those persons to grow faster because they are skilled. There will be those that will take shorter and there will be those that will take longer to
improve themselves because academically they are different. But we do want to make police the home of all South Africans that are there but also, give them the space to grow. We have changed the Police Service, we called it the organisation of excellence. When we were young and grew up and not doing very well at school, we were told to join the police.
IsiZulu:
Kuthiwe kungani ungajoyini amaphoyisa ngoba akuhambi kahle esikoleni.
English:
So, those days are gone. You must join the Police Service when things go very well for you academically. Thanks.
Ms M DLAMINI: Minister, the local police stations are the faces of law enforcement and they hold an important role for law and order. In instances where the crime rate is high what interventions are taken against police stations, which are based in urban areas where crime is high and there is lack of police vicinity? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, indeed, police stations are the first contact between the community and the police as an
organisation. One thing that we have discussed, hon member, Mma Dlamini, is that police stations commanders are playing a very crucial role in keeping the stations alive.
You go to some stations and the community will tell you that, look, if you want us to kill you take this station commander. You go to others, they say when you leave, leave with the station commander. Please don’t leave her or him here. It means we need what has happened to develop a programme of taking station commanders on board to try to leave them so that they understand their job that they are such key on doing those things. So, that’s one thing that has been done. We have taken them through a programme. Even the Ministry, we have agreed that we will be going around addressing them so that they understand how crucial they are even before you take them on those matters.
Some of them, they are really doing well. I don’t want to mention names. There is one station commander that was at Inanda. There was a big war between the police and the community when we took him to Kabega. I can assure you, if you go to Kabega to take him away now there will be a big war.
Wherever he goes, they guy shines. There is one that when we go, we have taken some indeed away with us as we leave in that
particular area. But that should not be the starting point. The starting point is to try to work with them to improve them to understand their job and their duties and to say they are leaders in that particular area on behalf of the police but also they are the link with the communities. So, that’s what we are doing. But the availability and visibility will only be achieved when we trained enough police. I have given the figures that we are training at the present moment. Will it be adequate? Absolutely no. We will have to continue to train until the figures are better, and indeed, they are improving but they are not where they are supposed to be. But one major training that we have increased even with the station commanders, the office and the police station is not the place to find the police. You need to find the police on the streets. You need to find the police amongst the communities out there. In the office you come for few things for administration.
But for actual policing for the community to live safe, we must be out there. There are few things that we need to fix. I still don’t know why affidavits are signed at the police stations when all councillors, all Members of Parliament are commissioners of oath. Is you that should be signing affidavits. Our councillors should be signing instead of going
and cloning the police stations having long queues for affidavits. So, we need to ease so that the queues you find in the police stations are dealing with the crime issues. So, all of us can work rather than not be available even when the time you are supposed to be in our communities. Please, you go and sign the affidavits and allow my police to do their job, which is the crime fighting. Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you,
hon Minister. Hon members, you had a responsibility.
Question 235:
The MINISTER OF POLICE: A total number of 20 Economic Infrastructure Task Teams were stablished throughout the country with 18 having been established at the district level and two at the provincial level. The Economic Infrastructure Task Teams, EITTs, have been operational since 01 June 2022. The focus of the EITTs is on the following areas: Essential infrastructure crimes, example, tempering with or destroying of infrastructure related to the energy; to transport; water and sanitation; communication services; petrol pipes; fuel pipes.
Critical infrastructure like pipelines - as I have said - of fuel theft; extortion and robbery at the construction or at economic sites; combating of illegal mining and elicit trafficking of controlled metals like copper, aluminium and chrome.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Minister,
do you have the correct question? The one of hon Mthethwa that spoke about whether there in the SA Police Service are any strategies and plans to stop the practice of extorting money known as protection fees from businesses in townships in town centers.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I am just
asking because the Table is asking me, they heard something about infrastructure. They were just afraid that you may be responding to the other questions.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: This is Question 235 asked by member Emmanuel ... [Inaudible.] ... of the ANC. That is the question I am answering.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): You can
continue. Just a moment!
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Deputy Chair, on a point of order. Are you then in effect saying that the Minister’s answer is irrelevant?
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): I said
nothing. I am very sober where I am. I said nothing. The Table requested me that question. So, you may continue, hon Minister.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Dedicated personnel have been allocated to the 20 EITTs, the human resources requirement for the Economic Infrastructure Task Team Police Act and those that they work on the public service have been recruited, sourced for existing structures within each province, district and station and consist of experienced and knowledgeable personnel within their respective functioning environment. The establishment of the EITT is based on the premise of integrating operational processes, resources and intelligence across all the operational environment of the SA Police Service under the single command in order to successfully address essential infrastructure related crimes, visit mining,
as well as extortion and robberies and identify construction sites in the coherent and synergised manner.
In addition, investigating capacity was established in organised crime investigation of serious and violent crimes, investigation components in the division detective forensic to address the incidence of extortion and violence in construction. So, there is a list of those who are invited where the division of crime intelligence is leading some divisible policing, is leading some detectives and forensic and some directorates of priority crimes. Also, the Civilian Secretariat for Police Service, CSPS, which is the secretariat, has prioritised the enhancing of the functioning of community policing forums so as to improve liaison between SA Police Service and the communities it serves. The finalisation of the community policing forum, CPF, election has been done.
Chairperson, that is the answer on working with extortions which is called protection fees, sometimes we call it extortion which goes with the infrastructure problem in various provinces. Question 2 which said, what role could the business and community policing forum play? We have answered that, that we are working with those structures.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): In many
instances you have responded to that one.
Mr E M MTHETHWA: Minister, my question is, with the implementation of the memorandum of understanding, MOU, have we seen any marked improvement in the cases of these business extortions? Any improvement, Minister?
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, there is improvement. The fact that there are people that are in prison, that would be an improvement if people get arrested. Besides, we are working with the committee of top business led by the President where there are work streams. There is a work stream of business working on the crime issues. Also, we are working very closely with the capabilities, especially technological capabilities with the private sector. I cannot explain exactly because some of those things are with the police and private security, especially on the trio crime and all that.
Indeed, the arrests have improved. However, one of working with business, though is a farming community, is what happened in Hoedspruit where there was a cash-in-transit heist. The farmers worked with the police to make road blocks as they were chasing them. Four of those people were shot and killed
when farmers and police were working together, though some other people came with something nonsensical to say that police were nowhere to be found.
I am very glad that the farming community there issued a statement on how they work together with the police. You can get the statement and read it on how good the relationship is between those communities. Indeed, working with business and not just business all other communities does pay good dividends in terms of reducing crime. Thank you.
Mr M J MAGWALA: Once again, greetings to the Minister. Minister, in what way does the public awareness campaign effectively inform businesses and individuals about extortion risks? Are there any quantifiable results in terms of increased reporting of incidents? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Yes, there is increased reporting on the matter. These extortions started as some form of elite kind of crime. It has gone beyond. At Empangeni, we discovered one person where there was exchange of fire between his group and the police, was even charging the women (mamas) that are selling bananas, saying if one made sales of R50 bananas, he
will take R25. This thing of extortion of ordinary South Africans has gone to that level.
Here in Cape Town, in some of the townships if you have a person that works in your house, a helper, they will go to her and ask how much she is paid. If she says R500, they will go to the owner of the house to ask him to pay them some percentage for that R500 and all that. So, it has gone to that level. It is one part of the mass shootings here in Cape Town. Indeed, we have arrested serious guys. One is a very young popular guy because he has been caught time and again.
The guy is known as Bara. We have arrested him and he is a 30- year old teacher. He is a teacher by profession. He is one of the worst extortionist you can ever think. He runs taxis and he comes from Cofimvaba ... [Laughter.] ... Yes, he comes from Cofimvaba, he is here and has been arrested. Unfortunately, they are on the business of bribing communities, those people that are extorting. When Bara was arrested there was a march in one township here, demanding that the Minister of Police must release him because he is doing good things for them. He gives them food parcels.
Bara is charged with 19 murders, yes, 19 murders. However, communities ... the question is relevant to what the hon member has asked of, if the communities ... but it cannot be the police issue alone to teach communities about this. All of us must we must have those community outreach programmes, to say, this is a new thing that we are facing and to say to communities that they must not agree to be mobilised. We must work on this vacuum of not mobilising the communities and allowing criminals to mobilise them. If you go where the top gangster has been killed, people will be arguing that he was helping by buying my son some Nikes and all those kinds of things.
So, it should be the job of all of us to go and protect communities by having outreach programmes. That is why, maybe, the police have really several izimbizo where we also deal with crime prevention issues. It is a call that all of us must be available where the communities are to raise the understanding and the conscience of the communities, to understand that crime is an issue that use communities as a contested area by both criminals and those that are supposed to protect them. Thank you.
Mr N M HADEBE: Deputy Chairperson, the hon Minister has covered the question that I had, which talked to the role that the CPFs and the business committees could play in assisting the police to curb these money extortion parties. Thank you, Chairperson.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank very much, hon Hadebe, you are assisting. I have received a message then, that hon Badenhorst will ask the follow up of hon Michalakis. Hon Michalakis is in the House. I don’t know, should I still ask hon Badenhorst to ask your follow up question?
Mr G MICHALAKIS: Chairperson, I understand that that was a miscommunication. That question was supposed to have been asked from hon Badenhorst. From the beginning there were few faults on the schedule today. So, that is for one is not my fault. Thank you.
Afrikaans:
Die ADJUNKVOORSITTER VAN DIE NRVP (Me S E Lucas): Hoekom voel jy dan so skuldig? Agb Rikus Badenhorst?
English:
Mr F J BADENHORST: Hon Minister, when the President appeared in the NCOP quite recently, a similar question was put from my hon colleague, Hon Brauteseth, to the President. The President was nice to me. He didn’t treat me or anything, he has been nice. ... [Interjections.] ...
Mr M J MAGWALA: Don’t be a cry baby here, man.
Mr F J BADENHORST: The President agreed to give some thought to the idea of establishing a dedicated reporting line, specifically with regards to this topic of extortion. At the very same time while he was standing here saying that he would give thought to establishing a reporting line, in Khayelitsha, the City of Cape Town, the Executive Mayor, Geordin Hill-Lewis launched a hotline for the city’s residents and businesses to report extortion and mafia type of activities.
So, the Woman (mama) who was selling bananas you talked about earlier she could report from that day onwards through a hotline. My question to you would be, once again it is evidence that the DA-led government leads in an effort to fight this scourge when it seems that you always trying to play catch up with best practices. Minister, when will you stop sitting on your hands, take off your beautiful blue hat
that you are wearing today - I see - roll up your sleeves and start implementing best crime fighting practices? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: In 2020, when Geordin Hill-Lewis or whoever Lewis was not a mayor, the Minister of Police invited the premier of the Western Cape and the mayor of Cape Town to sit down and talk about the extortions. Whatever idea they have it comes from that meeting. It was the first province where we stablished the committee to deal with extortion. That committee is represented from the Office of the Premier by Mr Brown who sits in that committee and is represented by J P Smith. That was an idea from the national Minister together with the commissioner working. This thing of small extortion is started in this, so, we have to respond on that. Whatever you see is just blossoming and flowering of the ideas that came from that level. Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Hon
delegates, I would really like to thank the Minister. Nevertheless, I would also want to acknowledge the progress that has been made to make sure that the SA Police Service becomes a career of choice. I want to really commend you and your management, as well as your Deputy Minister for the fact that we can see the progress. Crime is still high but in terms
of the measures that you have put in place we want to commend you. Hon Minister, whilst I am thanking the permanent delegates you can move to your seat.
The MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you.
The DEPUTY CHAIRPERSON OF THE NCOP (Ms S E Lucas): Thank you
very much. I also want to ... [Laughter.] ... I also want to acknowledge the fact that the national chairperson of the community policing forums is a woman, Franscina Lucas, from the Western Cape. She is a Lucas but not really, both of us married into Lucas. So, I want to really commend you for the fact that we can see that there is real progress made, if women begin to lead such important structures we know that you are serious with the issue of gender representation. I want to mention that, thank you, and I want to commend you also for that.
Let me thank you, my brother; the Minister and my little brother; the Deputy Minister; we used to be premiers both of us together, that is why he is my brother, I am the big sister. The permanent delegates; members of the executive council, MECs; all special delegates that availed themselves, Sanna Tities, for the sitting. That concludes the business of
the day. The House is adjourned. Welcome to hon Yunus Carrim after a long time. It is good to see you. Thank you very much. [Laughter.]
Business of the day concluded.
The Council adjourned 17:59.
Audio
No related