Hansard: NA: Unrevised hansard
House: National Assembly
Date of Meeting: 08 Nov 2023
Summary
No summary available.
Minutes
UNREVISED HANSARD
NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
WEDNESDAY, 8 NOVEMBER 2023
PROCEEDINGS OF HYBRID NATIONAL ASSEMBLY
Watch here: Plenary
The House met at 15:00.
The House Chairperson, Ms M G Boroto, took the Chair and requested members to observe a moment of silence for prayers or meditation.
Announcement
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): There are four supplementary questions on each question. On the Order Paper today is questions addressed to the Ministers in Cluster 1: Peace and Security. There are four supplementary questions on each question. Parties have given an indication on which questions their members wish to pose a supplementary question. Adequate notice was given to parties for this purpose. This was done to facilitate participation of members who are connecting to the sitting through the virtual platform.
The members who will pose supplementary questions will be recognised by the presiding officer. In allocating opportunities for supplementary questions, the principle of fairness, among others, have been applied. If a member, who is supposed to ask a supplementary question through the virtual platform is unable to do so due to technological difficulties, the party Whip on duty on duty will be allowed to ask the question on behalf of their member. When all supplementary questions have been answered by the executive, we will proceed to the next question on the Question Paper.
QUESTION TO MINISTERS CLUSTER 1 – PEACE AND SECURITY
Question 611:
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Chairperson, the reply to the question is as follows: Our country has been an active and leading humanitarian role- player in crisis situations around the world. One of the ways through which our government provides humanitarian support is through regular and consistent financial contributions to emergency humanitarian appeals from the United Nations, humanitarian agencies and individual national governments, faced with natural or manmade disasters.
Our approach to conflict resolution is informed by our own history. Our experience in the peaceful resolution of apparently intractable conflicts compels us to participate in all efforts, to alleviate the plight of peoples who are struggling to resolve similar conflicts.
With respect to collaboration, we have been in discussion with agencies such as the Gift of the Givers, the International Red Cross and other civil society organisations, to identify opportunities for partnerships in facilitating humanitarian aid to Gaza and other parts of the Palestinian territories. We have also provided diplomatic support through liaison with the government of Egypt for NGOs to transport humanitarian aid into the Gaza Strip through the Rafah crossing point.
We do not, as South Africa, seek to prescribe nor impose our will on any peace process. We have always indicated our willingness to share our experience and to play a role, should it be wanted in the Palestine-Israel conflict. In seeking to advance the Middle East peace process, our strategy includes intensifying our work with solidarity campaigns with nongovernmental organisations, national parliaments, other governments and with the United Nations system.
Our efforts on the Palestinian question are on record and everyone is aware of South Africa’s government’s position. Some of us will recall President Mandela’s efforts in seeking to contribute to a peaceful negotiation of the conflict. Some will recall that our President Nelson, the first President of a free and democratic South Africa, undertook a visit to engage former Israeli Prime Minister Barak and the late President Yasser Arafat of Palestine. We hosted the 2002 Spier Initiative. We, of course, are keen that, should there be a peace process, should we be invited, should our participation be sought, as South Africa, we would, of course, be ready to play a role, but the most important objective at this time is to end the killing. I thank you.
Mr X NQOLA: House Chair, hon Minister, how is the South African government utilising its own diplomatic resources and influence to bring and contribute towards the solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and what actions are being taken to ensure that humanitarian assistance reaches those in need in Gaza and the surrounding regions, particularly given the fact that there is a violent situation, as we speak? So, how is that humanitarian assistance reaching those in need? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Chairperson, it has not been possible at this time for South Africa to make the contribution that it would like to, in relieving the plight of Palestinians living both in the West Bank and in the Gaza territory. We have been working, as I say, with NGOs, particularly here in South Africa, one of them being Gift of the Givers and assisting with communication with the government of Egypt that has allowed some aid to cross through the Rafah border crossing.
We believe that much more must be done, but all of the members are aware that most trucks bearing humanitarian aid have been prevented from entering through the Rafah crossing. And in fact, some of the humanitarian aid trucks and aid workers have come under fire and have had to return into Egypt or give up the attempt to provide aid and to drive into the area in which help is necessary.
At this time, the most important step that we, as South Africa, need to take is to continue our efforts, to encourage a cessation of hostilities and the opening up of safe corridors for the entry and transport of humanitarian aid. And South Africa continues to lend its support to these efforts.
Thank you.
Mr W M THRING: House Chair, Minister, yesterday you confirmed in this House that government’s policy regarding the Israeli- Palestinian conflict is to have a two-state solution. The ACDP believes that South Africa has a moral obligation to support a negotiated solution to the conflict and should distance itself, as I said yesterday, from a radicalised position on Israel, in order to be seen as an honest broker. Now, after government’s denial that you called Hamas leader, Mr Haniyeh, and then confirmation that you did indeed call him, was there any similar call to your Israeli counterpart after the
October 7 incursion, which would involve necessarily our diplomats? If yes, what are the details and if no, why not? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Well, Madam Chairperson, I don’t know how many times one would have to repeat this. The policy position of the government of South Africa has always been that there should be a two-state solution. This is something that the actions of Israel have clearly indicated is not desired by the government of Israel. However, it is our belief and that of much of the world, including the majority of member states of the United Nations, that this is the only solution to achieve peace and security for the people of Israel and the people of Palestine.
Now, with respect to this telephone call, which has got everybody here very abuzz, the Hamas leadership, which, in fact, is the government of Gaza, asked that they would like to speak to me and given Mr Thring’s belief that South Africa should indeed play a role in seeking a peaceful resolution, that intention requires the ability and openness to talking to all parties, just as we advise with respect to Russia and Ukraine.
Following that request from Hamas, I indeed had a call with them. I did dial the number, which was provided by the Hamas leader’s office, because they could not dial directly into South Africa, given the bandwidth and other prohibitions at the time. So, I spoke to that gentleman, Mr Haniyeh. I did not express any support for the atrocious actions that had occurred on 7 October, and that I have said that, Mr Thring, is totally untrue, and it has been peddled by a number of very negative persons who seek to twist the truth. So, I hope that this is the final time that I will have to again give an answer on this matter.
Our interest, as South Africa, is to support a negotiated process between Israel and Palestine, led by Israelis and Palestinians, and supported by those who would initiate this
process and any that may be invited. We hope South Africa would be party to that, but if we are not, if the process results in peace for both nations, we would be satisfied. I thank you.
Mr S N SWART: Chairperson, on a point of order, if I may. I know that you will probably rule me out of order, but the Minister did not answer the direct question whether she phoned the Israeli government like she phoned Hamas in the attempt to obtain peace. I think, it would be good to hear that from the hon Minister as well. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (MS M G Boroto): I am not going to ask the Minister. The Minister responded. I actually gave her more time out of the two minutes, so that, as she requests, the question should not be asked again.
Mr S N SWART: ... just a few more minutes. I am sure she ...
Mr N L S KWANKWA: Chairperson, Minister, South Africa’s mediation efforts between Palestine and Israel, as you already indicated, started way back during the Madiba years, and even the most significant Spier Peace Initiative in 2002, which you also cited, did not give us the desired outcome, because at
the time, Israel perceived South Africa to be pro-Palestine to some extent. With that in mind, is it not prudent perhaps to make sure that we have a continental approach or mediation effort to this crisis, by making South Africa probably proposing to the AU that we need to have an AU delegation that will visit both states, in order to try and mediate in this conflict? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Madam Chair, to the hon Kwankwa, that would be something that I would put as his suggestion to colleagues in the Executive Council of the African Union, to get a sense as to whether there would be any interest in such a step.
I think South Africa is pro-Palestine, as I explained yesterday, in that the people of South Africa have always, in their posture with respect to values and principles, been concerned about the oppressed and about assisting the oppressed to achieve freedom, just as we, eventually achieved our own freedom. Hence, our seemingly overbearing, to some members, support for Palestine is due to the fact that they are the ones that exist and live under oppression and injustice.
However, being the very fair people that we are, we recognise the right of Israel to exist. Hence, our belief that the only way to achieve peace is through a two-state solution. And I repeat, for the sake of hon Swarts, that it was Hamas’ leaders that asked me to have a phone call conversation with them. I have never received such a request from any personality in Israel. I thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Chairperson, Minister, it seems to be a criminal offence that you had to speak to Hamas leaders in trying to find common ground and a solution, while others can communicate with a criminal, a fraudster, corrupter, where hundreds of thousands of people are protesting to remove him from office. However, coming back to the state in Palestine, there is a serious problem. What intervention can you put in place when approximately 500 babies at the time cannot be delivered, as a result of the lack of anaesthetic, because of the restrictions put by the Israeli government? And further to that, should humanitarian aid be allowed, would you consider speaking to your colleagues in the Department of Health to provide some levels of anaesthetic and, more importantly, medical experts, specialists, doctors, health care workers to try and alleviate problems from a health perspective in Palestine? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Chairperson, and I thank hon Shaik. We have been deliberating for some time in the department, along with the NGOs and international organisations I referred to, as to how we as South Africa may be of assistance. I am very glad that I have been informed by the Actonville branch of the ANC that they will be hosting a fundraising meeting, in which contributions that will be directed towards support of the suffering people of Palestine has been arranged by that particular branch of the ANC.
Now, we have identified that certainly, health equipment and human resources are the first line of support that are required. Added to that, however, many children in Palestine and Gaza are starving today. So, food items are certainly increasingly urgently necessary. Many are dying of thirst.
Water is not available and we all know that hospitals can no longer carry out operations, because there is no fuel provided to them.
These are people who exist in an environment in which it is only possible for them to have basic necessities, if they are permitted to have them by the state of Israel. And we must do all we can in our limited means to provide assistance and we
will try to do so, as the opportunities open up, and once the proper procedures in South African statutory requirements have been satisfied. I thank you.
Question 629:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: [Laughter.] Thank you, Chairperson and thank you, hon Majozi for the question. Members of the SA Police Service at Diepkloof police station in particular, did not form part of the Operation Dudula raids on foreign owned shops in Diepkloof. According to SAPS records, no fatalities of children due to consumption of expired products purchased from foreign owned spaza stores food in Diepkloof were reported. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon Deputy Minister, are there any plans in place for the Department of Police to work in collaboration with the Department of Home Affairs and the Department of Small Business, together with the provincial government and local government so that we don’t have a duplication of work to clamp down on the issue of illegal migrants owning shops as this has the potential to greatly impact the economy, especially considering that undocumented immigrants will also not be able nor want to register to pay taxes? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks for the follow up question. Yes, indeed, we do work with other departments in dealing with the business of this kind by people who operate businesses without necessary documentation. The departments are generally involved, your Department of Home Affairs, to deal with foreign nationals. We do also involve the Department of Health through Sahpra, to deal with issues of health- related matters in the sale of these goods. Thank you very much.
Ms N P PEACOCK: Deputy Minister, the illegal operation of shops and selling of expired goods requires a collaborative approach by government as it involves other departments, including the enforcement of municipal by-laws. What is the level of collaboration in governance or in government to deal with the illegal ownership of shops and selling of expired goods? I thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, hon Peacock. Yes, indeed, like I said Chairperson that the department does work collaboratively with other departments in this specific space. We also do involve Brand SA who are able to assist us as we deal with illegal trade in this regard, working together with local municipalities and provincial government because we
believe we do need a collaborative approach to deal with these issues because SAPS on its own might not be able to deal with the said issues without collaborating with other departments. Thanks very much, hon Chairperson.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you, Deputy Minister for your response. It is a well-known fact that vigilantism flourishes where citizens do not trust their justice system, particularly the police. Rural and township residents have been complaining about spaza shops owned by illegal immigrants who bribe some police officers and seem to be getting away with selling expired food. Some residents even complain about illicit drugs that are being sold to children from some of these shops. As a Minister responsible for law and order in the country, how do you respond to the above, and what should unhappy and frustrated citizens do when they see some police officers receiving free goods and money from the illegal spaza shop owners who are known to be selling drugs and breaking the law? Thank you.
Setswana:
MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Moh M G Boroto): Ke wetswe ke mowa wa kereke gore ke go tlogele o fete motsotso o le mongwe. E seke ya tlhola e etsega gape.
Moruti K R J MESHOE: Ke a leboga mme.
English:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks for the follow up question, Reverend. As the SA Police, we don’t appreciate police officers who collaborate with wrongdoers and also accept cheap bags or bribes. We have always appealed to our communities that in instances where crime is committed by law enforcement officers, these matters must be brought to our attention, either through Ipid or the Civilian Secretariat or the Hawks, so that we deal with those amongst us who are involved in illegal activities.
Yes indeed, there are instances where communities take the law into their own hands because they perceive police not doing what is necessary to deal with criminality. But we have always responded when we have officers who engage in activities that are not appropriate. Foreign nationals who engaged in illegal activities, we have acted on that as well. So, we are confident that the approach that we have taken to deal with illegal trade and people who engage in criminalities, both who wear uniforms and those who are perpetrators, we deal with them, and we will continue to do so. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr N L S KWANKWA: The question really Minister, I think to a large extent, the multidisciplinary or departmental approach that you say your government is taking is actually noted. But do you not think rather that the time then has come – since this is a crisis of titanic proportions - I mean in Keiskammahoek where I was last weekend, there are kids who have died because they ate these expired goods. Some are hospitalised at SS Gida Hospital and its widespread.
Is it not important then for the Department of Police to set up a national task team to deal with this matter so that reports can be made on a regular basis about progress that is being made with regard to the clampdown when it comes to the sale of illegal goods and the operation of illegal spaza shops, as well as whether people have been arrested for that? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Kwankwa. Chairperson, indeed, as a department we have responded to the continued illegality or criminality taking place in our country. As we speak today, we have a programme called Operation Shanela, which is a multidisciplinary response to challenges of crime in the country that focuses - not only on spaza shop or people trading in expired goods -
but criminality broadly. And we are quite confident that through this programme we will be able to make an inroad in the challenges that are faced by our country in this regard. Thank you very much.
Question 615:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: The strategic
defence packages of the late 1990s did not include the landward defence capability. It was generally accepted that the army would be funded through a multiyear long-term project which would be provided through a special defence account.
Among these, we thought that it would be projects across the defence, which would also be looking at all the other matters the scam has not included in the 1998 procurement. Now, scam funding largely went through the Denel and the other different defence players. In 2003, 19 projects and three upgrades were registered, the biggest project being Hoefyster, which was intended to acquire a new infantry combat vehicle at a projected cost of R16 billion.
An amount of R14,1 billion was set aside for this, but later taken away to address other government priorities. Later on, R7 billion that was meant for the project was made available, and this money was paid. through the different subcontractors,
for instance, Roitek Reutech got about R1,4 billion for the radios, and this went like that towards the other capabilities which we thought would go into the finished rattle, once it was completed. We then have been involved with the Treasury, firstly. acknowledging that in the meantime the landward systems are all but gone.
We acknowledge that the army has been hard at work to try to maintain and upgrade, and that for the logistics and transport for the materials and personnel, the army itself has done a fantastic job of trying to upgrade and maintain what was old. However, we have been involved in talking with the Treasury on the matter. We have been hard at work trying to address the issues within Denel. One of the demands that we have made was that Denel has to come back from where it is located so that it is closer to us so that we can more directly supervise the money intended for the upgrades, renewal and so on and so forth of the defence.
We have largely been able to come together, address the issues and to reduce the earlier estimates of trying to get 264 vehicles for the defence and reduce them to 100. We have pushed Amscor to follow the money that they put into the defence industry. We have had several meetings, we have put
the Project Hoefyster back into the space, but it is going very slowly, therefore, it is not completed. We continue to engage with the Treasury. We think that there is something in the offing because we have been promised some money and we intend to make sure that that money that will come to us from Treasury goes into the projects and completes these projects.
We have also for the first time been given the reivestment from the UN straight into the defence, and we intend to take this money and put it into the completion of this. So, we do intend to make sure that this particular project gets finalised and finds its place into the matters of defence, especially, because now more than ever, we need to be able to project that South Africa is able to protect herself. Thank you, ma’am.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Reminder, it’s four minutes to respond. Can the ICT Help us again by just muting everybody whose mic is opened there. There are certain sounds that come from these virtual platforms.
Setswana:
Mme Legwase, tswelela pele o botse potso.
Ms T I LEGWASE: Minister, can you provide an update on the specific outcomes achieved so far, and the remaining challenges to be addressed to adequately fund and upgrade the capability of the South African Army infantry formation for the 2023-24 annual performance plan. Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, perhaps
it’s because I was too long, but I have tried to get into that. We have reduced the estimates and that we have, therefore, been able to negotiate a smaller package through Treasury. We have been promised a billion plus, and we are going to divert the money that we have received from the reinvestment by from the UN into the defence. We are also following up with the defence industry to get all the money that we paid in, but we have not received the goods to be either re returned or the upgraded versions of whatever we wanted many years ago to be made available to ready a finished product that we are awaiting. Thank you.
Mr S J MARAIS: Thank you, Minister, for your responses. Just for information, this is not the first time that we have received the UN refund back into the defence during the mid- term budget. However, Minister, under your watch, we have experienced an increased deterioration of the defence
capabilities in all the defence force formations, including the army, but most notably, in the air force and the navy.
While the budget cut announced last week will have a significant impact on our overall defence readiness, will it surely have a more devastating negative impact on the navy’s already weak maritime combat capability? Explain to us why you have agreed to the R400 to R77 million cut, specifically, from maritime combat capability as part of the baseline budget reduction of R607 million which will have a devastating, if not catastrophic effect. On the defence capabilities of the navy and the defence force as a whole. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Thank you, Mr
Marais. Mr Marais, under my gut, there is a deterioration. However, if you’re honest, you know the deterioration comes from far, long before I came into this department. It comes from years and years of a depreciating defence capability, and it comes from years of a noninjection into the renewal and rejuvenation of the defence. Therefore, what we have been doing is not to agree to a budget cut, but in the worst case, we do have a Cabinet. You would know that you make your case, but the final decision is taken by the Treasury where to cut.
Therefore, it is not true that we are happy and that we are complacent about this. Part of the reasons why we are running around the world and trying to get into partnerships is so that those partnerships can enable us to purchase, renew and to rebuild whatever it is that we have. Also, part of the reason we are recruiting back the human capacity that Denel used to own from the other foreign countries, is that they should come home, and they should help us rebuild, maintain and upgrade our staff. Thank you, sir.
IsiZulu:
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Mhlonishwa kuliqiniso elingephikwe ukuthi uMnyango wakho ube nezinselele selokhu ungenile nezinhlekelele ezehlile, ukucekela phansi nokusebenza koMbutho. Mhlonishwa uma ungathembisa le Ndlu noma lesi sizwe ucabanga ukuthi ngabe kufikeleleka masishane yini ukuze kube khona indlela yokusebenza nokugcwalisa lezikhala ezivulekileyo ngokulimala kwemishini yokusebenza kombutho esetshenziswa amasotsha ale lizwe lakithi. Mhlawumbe unyaka ozayo ungathembisa ukuthi kuyoba khona osekwenzekile.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, I cannot
say next year, but I can say that this House will remember what the President just said at the beginning of this month
regarding the state of affairs of defence, and that we need to inject more capital so that we can upgrade our capabilities.
That is a commitment, and that is a commitment that we are making a follow-up on. Thank you.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: Minister, the main concern is that we are far away to meet 2015 defence review targets. We all agree that the defence infrastructure was neglected with no maintenance. How are you going to be able to maintain the human resource capabilities to operate this equipment as most capable people are designing for greener pastures elsewhere? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: If you are
looking at the defence, most people are not resigning, they are taking retirement packages because we are also trying to contain the cost of employment, and therefore, we are enabling people to take their money and to go home, so that we create more space not only to have resources to buy, renew and maintain, but also to recruit younger people so that your rejuvenation is not just about equipment, it is also about people. What we can say is that a commitment to renew, is a commitment that we are making.
However, we can commit to all we can, but until we get a resolution from the Treasury and from the Cabinet that the money will flow into the coffers of the defence, we are not going to do that. That is why at the same time, yes, you are right, the Defence Review 2015 was never implemented. We are in the process of reviewing it and we are looking at what is doable because we have realised that, if you look at it as it was then, there is no way we will be able to prosecute it. So, we are looking at all the way that will make it possible for us to have a defence force which is capable of defending its own country. Thank you.
Question 635:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Chairperson, and thanks to the hon Whitfield for the question. The investigation is complete and in accordance with the SA Police Service Disciplinary Regulations of 2016, disciplinary hearings have been scheduled in this regard. The SA Police Service Disciplinary Regulations of 2016 provide for the suspension of employees who are alleged to have committed serious acts of misconduct.
The suspended employee is subjected to a disciplinary process, including an investigation within 60 calendar days of such
suspension. If the period of suspension lapses before the investigation or disciplinary process is finalised, the suspension will automatically be uplifted. In terms of the disciplinary regulations, the suspended employees must return to work and an alternative placement is considered to prevent the employee from interfering with the investigation or disciplinary proceedings.
There are, however, a number of challenges, including case complexity and a lack of a dedicated disciplinary management capacity, which contribute to the investigations and/or disciplinary procedures not being completed before the suspension period ends. The national commissioner has, in this regard, approved the establishment of a dedicated capacity in the form of disciplinary units whose sole responsibilities to deal with all disciplinary matters in SA Police Service in order to address this challenge that I have mentioned before. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Mr A G WHITFIELD: Thank you very much, House Chairperson. It is abundantly clear from recent events that the VIP Protection Unit is suffering from some very real problems: Firstly, they were caught on camera violently assaulting South African citizens; and then just recently, this week, they were caught
with their pants around their ankles while surrendering themselves, their firearms and their political principal to the criminals on our streets.
However, the problem doesn’t begin and end with the VIP Protection Unit. We have a systemic problem of misconduct and a lack of discipline within the SA police service. Don’t trust me. You can trust the facts provided by the Minister, who said that between 2013 and 2021, a total of 10 086 SA Police Service members were charged with serious criminal offences.
These include murder, rape and assault with grievous bodily harm, GBH.
At the time, only 50 of more than 10 000 SA Police Service members charged with violent crimes were formally suspended by SA Police Service. Out of the 282 members charged for rape, just 11 were in fact suspended. It is abundantly clear from the evidence that the Ministry of Police is in fact not serious about cracking down on police misconduct and brutality. We see it in the evidence, and we see it on the streets.
So, perhaps the Deputy Minister, who standing in for the Minister of Police today, will commit to this House that the
urgent review of the SA Police Service Disciplinary Regulations is not only necessary, it is immediate, and that the review of those regulations will include imposing harsher sentences on the suspension protocols for SA Police Service members charged with misconduct. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you, Chair, and thanks for the follow up question. Yes indeed, in my response, I did indicate that there is a challenge in terms of dealing with issues of discipline because of lack of capacity. In that, regard, we have taken a decision, and the national commissioner has established a dedicated capacity to deal with this shortcoming. That is a clear indication to a person that there is commitment from the leadership of the SA Police Service to deal with wrongdoing perpetuated by the SA Police Service.
The issue of the review of the regulations, yes, is on the agenda. We are working on that, led by the Civilian Secretariat. We are interacting with the Portfolio Committee on Police in this regard, and we will be updating them in the coming days about the progress that we have made. We are committed and we are doing what is necessary to deal with
wrongdoing within the police space. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms M M GOMBA: Thank you, House Chair. The appreciation is that the matter is before the courts and that we should allow the law to take its course. Hon Deputy Minister, as a way of mitigating incidents like this from happening in the future, how will the department ensure that there is a continuous training and retraining on the conduct of police officers in the execution of their mandate? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: We have a responsibility to train officers who conduct themselves in a professional manner, and we are doing all that is necessary to ensure that that happens. If you look in terms of the totality of the number of police officers we have and the acts of wrongdoing that happen, you can see that the majority of our police officers are professional and they are conducting themselves in a manner that is appropriate.
However, we do have elements who do things that are not appropriate and, as a consequence, they create an impression that generally police are behaving in a manner that is not appropriate. The true reflection is that a greater percentage
of our police officers are appropriately trained and they are conducting themselves in an appropriate manner.
Of course, we do note that we do have elements that conduct themselves in a manner that is not appropriate. Hence, we are continuing with an intensified program of policing that will ensure that the training which we give to our officers, lead to a scenario where we do not have incidences of this kind in future. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Thank you, hon House Chair, Hon Deputy Minister, South African public has low and declining trust and confidence in in its police. This was indicated in 2022 by the SA Human Science Research Council, HSRC, that reported just 27% of citizens had some trust in the police. Arguably, the incident involving the VIP Protection Unit officers assigned to the Deputy President’s protection has further diminished the public trust in the police. Considering this, what has your department done to regain public trust and confidence in the police since the incident has occurred. Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Majozi, for the follow up question. We have, as the leadership of the SA Police Service, continued to engage in public
interface with our communities, with a view of making them understand that it is not an issue of police officers in general that are engaging in wrongdoing; instead, there are elements within SA Police Service who are doing that.
Our communities have responded positively to this engagement that we have had. Both, the Minister and Deputy Minister, engage in community engagements almost each and every month, to ensure that our people understand that they should collaborate with police officers; and also, that police officers must understand that we are a service, as well.
We do have elements who believe that SA Police Service is not a service, and as a result, they conduct themselves in a manner that is not in keeping with what is expected from the service. We have also seen a response from our police officers who respond positively to this. They do serve our people with a view that they are the servants of our people. However, we do have elements who conduct themselves in a manner that is not appropriate, and we are dealing with such elements. Thank you very much.
Mr M K MONTWEDI: Minister, the VIP Protection Unit has a long history of abuse. Back in 2010, they assaulted the then
student activist Toumani Michelle here in Cape Town. Over the years, the recklessness of these people has caused many accidents across the country, and they do this with impunity. They do this mainly because they work under intense pressure, like by their political principals. Have you undertaken any investigation at the involvement of the Deputy President when this incident took place? When are you doing an overhaul of the operational structure of this unit to ensure that it is operational. Thank you, Chairperson.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Before you respond, hon Deputy Minister, be aware that the rules protect you from answering questions that supplementary questions that are not directly linked to the original question. You may proceed.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: I appreciate the response of the Chair and accordingly the question falls out of the questions that have been asked. Thank you, Chair.
Question 607:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks hon Meshoe for the question. Yes, an increase in police visibility on the ground will contribute positively to a reduction in the crime rate. The objective of the SA Police Service, SAPS, is to prevent,
combat and investigate crime, maintain public order, protect and secure the inhabitants of South Africa and their property, and uphold and enforce the law. However, this cannot be done in isolation of key stakeholders in the fight against crime, particularly at ground level, where an active citizenry, supported by effective community policing forums and constructive contributions by all sectors of society will further contribute to the reduction in levels of crime.
The prevention of crime is not solely the responsibility of the SAPS and government. Cabinet adopted an integrated crime and violent crime prevention strategy in March 2022, which represents a whole of government and whole of society approach to address crime and violence. Increased police visibility is a key component of the Increased Crime Prevention and Combatting Action Plan developed under the leadership of the Minister of Police. The plan was included in the SAPS national policing strategy annual operational plan and forms the basis for the weekly high density Operation Shanela, which involves the informed deployment of police officers in collaboration with other law enforcement agencies and government departments. Police visibility is part of the SAPS’ proactive policing or crime prevention focus and is intended to deter criminals, to ensure that the police are accessible and
responsible to community needs and to build confidence in the SAPS and improved feelings of safety in communities. As such, it is also an important aspect in mobilising communities to work with and support the SAPS in its work.
The Detective Service Recovery Plan was compiled during the first quarter of the 2023-24 financial year and is currently subject to consultation with relevant internal and external stakeholders. The Division Detective and Forensic Services has also commenced with the re-enlistment of experienced detectives and the bringing back of members that have migrated to other environments within the organisation in an attempt to further strengthen the detective capacity.
Furthermore, there is a continued emphasis on the training of detectives and on improving the quality of investigations, thereby promoting successful convictions. The plan also focuses on the tracking and arrest of wanted suspects, as part of Operation Shanela, particularly those who have been identified as having been involved in violent crimes. Thank you, Chairperson.
Setswana:
Moruti K R J MESHOE: Ke a leboga, Modulasetulo.
English:
Qualified and experienced detectives are a crucial part of an effective justice system. They identify suspects and find evidence to build watertight cases. Without their work, convictions are simply not possible. We also know that the majority of suspects who are arrested are never convicted.
Setswana:
MODULASETULO WA NTLO (Moh M G Boroto): Ema gannyane, Moruti. Ke kopa maitshwarelo.
English:
Pauline Tau? What’s the surname? Hon Marais, please mute. Proceed, hon Meshoe.
Rev K R J MESHOE: I hope you stopped your clock.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): We did.
Rev K R J MESHOE: Thank you. We also know that the majority of suspects who are arrested are never convicted because of poor investigations that often lead to a lack of sufficient evidence. Well, Deputy Minister, I heard what you said about experienced and retired detectives. I want to know whether you
include those that are retired because of age, as they are needed because without them the number of detectives is going to remain low. They are needed to improve capacity in order to ensure that serious crimes such as rape, murder and the increasing cases of women and child trafficking are sufficiently dealt with. Thank you.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. You had two minutes. You only used one minute. Hon Deputy Minister?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks hon Meshoe for the follow-up question. Yes, indeed, we include those that have retired but who have the capacity and we believe they can add value to our detective space. Like the police force in general, we have had a decline in ... our detectives over the years and we have taken a decision to recapacitate the service. Hence, the decision by the President which allowed us to increase ... from training 5 000 ... which we did in 2019. It's just that COVID came and we could not commence with training the following year. Currently as we speak, for the first time in the history of the SAPS, in the last financial year we trained 10 000 more police officers, and currently as we speak, on the 15th of December we will be graduating another 10 000 police officers. The President has been leading
from the front in ensuring that we recapacitate the SAPS because the numbers that we have today are fewer than the numbers we had in 2010-11. We believe that we are on the right track.
However, the capacitation also means that we must look to ensure that our detectives are added because the number of cases that each detective has is more than they can manage. Hence, we are increasing in that space, and hence the reason why we are re-enlisting those who have left the police space, because we believe that with that approach we will be able to capacitate this area or specialisation, and this will help us to deal with cases that are more than what each police detective has in terms of their files. This will assist us a great deal and we believe we will be able to respond appropriately to the concerns that hon Meshoe has raised.
Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms M A MOLEKWA: Hon Deputy Minister, the Minister of Finance indicated in the Medium-Term Budget Policy Statement that there will be an additional allocation to programmes such as visible policing, detective services and crime intelligence. How will this allocation contribute towards the capacitation of the Police Service?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thanks very much, hon Molekwa. We really appreciate the posture that the President and the Minister of Finance have taken in this regard. Whilst we appreciate and are aware of the financial constraints faced by our country and the need to make adjustments in our finances, the leadership saw it appropriate that we should not go into the easy spaces where we have gone in the past, which has put us where we are. The SAPS will receive this support from the Treasury, which will enable us to continue with the programme of ensuring that the 10 000 programme continues and is not affected by the cuts. Indeed, it will go a long way if, in the coming years, we are able to ensure that whatever challenge we are faced with as a country, we should never go into the space, particularly with regard to the SAPS, of cutting in that space. We must continue to strengthen the SAPS because a strengthened SAPS will assist us to deal with the challenges that we are confronted with in order to have a stable country and to have an environment that is conducive for economic growth and for investment. Strengthening the SAPS is strengthening our investment capability as a country. Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr B C GOLDING: Hon Minister, with regard to those numbers of detectives, you are currently indicating that there are
8 000. There is an indication that the Detective Services recovery plan is due. It is overdue. When can we expect that and when will it be approved?
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Indeed, with regard to the
8 000 you have spoken to, we are ensuring that we capacitate this so that we enable our detective officers to carry files that they are able to process. Currently as we speak, the numbers do not allow them to carry files that they are able to process. Hence, it takes a long period to resolve this. That is the reason why we have taken a decision to re-enlist those who have left the service in order to ensure that we add the numbers, because if we continue with these numbers that we have we will not be able to respond appropriately. We believe that the approach we have taken will assist us to respond to this challenge. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Dr P J GROENEWALD: Hon Deputy Minister, this question was raised by me for more than 10 years in the Portfolio Committee on Police and in debates in Parliament, saying that the number of detectives is inadequate. In short, if you look at statistics, only 20% of criminal cases end up in courts and then there isn’t a 100% prosecution rate. This means that a
criminal has an 80% ... of getting away with crime in South Africa due to the lack of a proper investigation.
My follow-up question is as follows. We always hear all Ministers saying that there must be capacitation of the detective services. Can the Minister say today what steps the Minister is going to take to ensure capacitation of detectives in the SAPS please? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Thank you very much, hon Groenewald. I am happy that hon Groenewald has not ... tired, having raised this for the past 10 years. It is good and I think it is because of this robustness, not only from him but from all members of the committee, because he does serve in that committee.
As I said, standing here responding to the question around the issue of detectives, there is a process that is unfolding to re-enlist ... We are not thinking of doing it; we are doing it to ensure that we capacitate our detectives, because we have come to that realisation that the number of dockets that our detectives have at hand are more than what they are supposed to have because of the number that is limited. This does not only apply to the detectives. I said earlier on that in 2010
to 2011-12 we had a higher number of police officers, policing
52 million people in the Republic of South Africa. Today we are 62 million. The number of police officers that we have today is less than what we had then in policing 52 000. Hence, the response led by the President to capacitate the service.
For the first time in the history of this country, we have trained 10 000 new police officers in the past financial year. We intended to train 5 000 but as we interacted with the President and the Minister of Finance, a decision was taken to increase ... by another 5 000 in order to make it 10 000. A commitment was made that for the next three years we are going to recruit 10 000 each year. We have started this year. As I'm speaking to you now, on the 15th of December there will be a
passing-out parade of the current Project 10
000
that we are
training, and out of that 10 000 there are 2
880
new members
who will be going into the detective space. That is part of us capacitating the detective space. That is part of capacitating the police in general. In the next financial year, we are going to recruit another 10 000 so that we increase the capacity generally within the SAPS.
We have approached issues that affected the security cluster, not only the SAPS but your Defence and Justice departments.
Currently as we speak, we are saying that we are engaged in Operation Shanela. Since this programme was launched in May to date, we have arrested over 200 000 wanted criminals that must go through the justice system. We are overloading a system where we are not assisting the police ... to capacitate.
Hence, the need to resource the Justice, Crime Prevention and Security, JCPS, cluster as a whole, so that it can become effective.
As a country, we committed a mistake by allowing the weakening of this sector. The President is currently leading ... in order to ensure that it is capacitated. We must appreciate the leadership of President Ramaphosa in this regard because it is through his leadership ... [Inaudible.] Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Question 616:
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: House Chairperson, indeed, hon Chabane, the opening of Home Affairs offices at Menlyn Mall in Tshwane and in Epping here in Cape Town has drastically brought improvement in servicing the masses of our clients within the Tshwane Metro and the Cape Metro, central business district, CBD, and surrounding areas. Having these offices have positively impacted upon customer service as it has
relieved pressure. In the case of Tshwane, the pressure has been relieved at Centurion Mall and Pretoria central offices. In the City of Cape Town, the pressure has been relieved at Barrack Street and Bellville.
The second part of the question, House Chair, the modernisation of Home Affairs offices, indeed, we are having a problem in this regard because when we say modernisation, we mean offices that have got connectivity that can give you a smart identity, ID, cards and where you can also apply for a passport. Unfortunately, half of Home Affairs offices don’t meet that standard because there are still what we call legacy offices. Now, the modernisation programme does not depend on Home Affairs, it depends on connectivity. Therefore, as you know, connectivity, broadband internet, as you know, it is common cause that nonconnectivity in the country is largely in the rural areas. Therefore, that is where unfortunately you will find the legacy offices.
Now, the Department of Communications and Digital Technologies has already announced, through the Cabinet a programme called South Africa Connect, where all the schools, clinics, hospitals, police stations and Home Affairs offices will be connected. When that happens, then we will no longer have a
problem of legacy offices, especially in rural areas. However, be that as it may, we did not fold our hands in Home Affairs and just wait for South Africa Connect. We looked for other technologies and we have got a new technology which works through a self-serving kiosk which will be put in the nonmodernised offices, especially in far rural areas. This kiosk will work more or less like the way the automated teller machine, ATM, works, meaning that you no longer need a Home Affairs official when you apply for an ID. You go to the kiosks and apply yourselves and then it gives you that smart card.
However, we must also warn that because we don’t want fraud, it can’t be given to people who are applying for the first time. It will only for those who want reissue because they already exist in the National Population Register, we already know them. That means those who have lost their IDs or those who want to change from the smart green barcoded ID booklet to the smart card. We have already started piloting this kiosk and we are happy to deploy them as soon as the pilot is completed so that we no longer have to depend on connectivity. When connectivity eventually comes to rural areas, it will just be a bonus for us. Thank you very much.
Mr M S CHABANE: House Chair, thanks the Minister for the comprehensive response. Minister, while we acknowledge significant progress on the modernisation of Home Affairs as we’ve indicated, network remains a challenge and the booking system contributes negatively to serving South Africans. Can the Minister assure this House on the plans to resolve the challenges that have been identified by South Africans or experienced by South Africans daily, including the mobile trucks and modernisation of offices in our rural areas? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Hon member, the issues of IT and connectivity are being improved almost every day. On the issue of the booking system, the problem is not connectivity, the branch appointment booking system, BABS, I am sure that’s what you are referring to. The problem is not connectivity, the problem is that before we book you, we can’t just book anybody. Before we book you, we must ascertain that you, indeed, are a South African who appears on the National Population Register. Therefore, the system - because it is a system - must check in the National Population Register.
Unfortunately, it is the same system that is used by the banks when they serve you as a client. The same system that is used by the SA Social Security Agency, Sassa, when they register
anybody for services. The same system that is used for by Private Industry Regulatory Authority.
Therefore, quite often when you book in, you find that you are queuing with the banks, you are queuing with Sassa, so it takes a long time and sometimes the system is unable to serve you for that reason. So, that is why it was sort of delaying. However, we are asking as technology is improved all the time so that the booking system can go very smoothly. Thank you very much.
Ms T A KHANYILE: House Chair, through you to hon Minister, concerning the modernised services offered at the Menlyn and Epping Home Affairs offices, which of these services are online and working? If they are not working or online, what are the details thereof? Since the opening of Epping and Menlyn offices, what was the total amount of office hours lost due to system downtime per office? How has this affected the modernised systems of the Menlyn and Epping offices?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, House Chairperson, you know, the Epping office was actually opened as a refugee reception centre, because the refugee reception centre here was closed down through an order of court, but the same court
ordered that a new one be opened. That, indeed, is a state-of- the-art, quite modernised, but we then took a decision that now that it is a state-of-the-art building there and it has got ample space, let’s also open a Home Affairs office to relieve the pressure at Barrack. That is what we did and as I am saying that all of them, as far as I know, are working very well. You yourself, hon member, I hope you were part of the portfolio committee that visited Menlyn, and after that visit the report I got from yourselves was that things are working very well, and the report we get from the public also is that the Menlyn is working very well as well as Epping. Epping had some ... [Inaudible.] ... problems which are being resolved.
Therefore, because these are working very well, that is why we wanted to move to other malls, and we are busy with them.
Cresta Mall in Johannesburg, Southgate Mall, Tiger Valley here in Cape Town and Pavilion in eThekwini, because we have seen the systems in malls can work very well and is highly modernised. Thank you.
Ms L L VAN DER MERWE: Hon House Chairperson, through you to hon Minister, good afternoon to you. Hon Minister, you recently informed us that your department only operates with about 40% capacity and the reality is that your department
doesn’t have money for staff, it doesn’t have money for the Border Management Authority, and it doesn’t have money for immigration officers. Therefore, with budget cuts on the cards, one could argue that your department is underresourced, understaffed, overstretched and being set up for failure by this ANC-led government. Therefore, considering this, services at banks mean less pressure on Home Affairs offices.
Currently, only a handful of banks offer Department of Home Affairs services. For example, as of 2022 there are 559 Amalgamated Banks of South Africa, Absa, branches, yet only six branches offer Department of Home Affairs services. These banks could help thousands of South Africans who want to access passports and IDs. Why have you not made good on your pledge to expand services to banks?
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Yes, hon member would like ... that is why we have got a memorandum of understanding with the banks. We believe it’s going to be a very good programme because anybody who has got a bank account need not go to a Home Affairs offices, you just apply online through your bank and the bank calls you to come and take biometrics. That’s why we are looking forward to this. It is the banks that are delaying, it’s not us, they keep on postponing. They did not
tell us the real answer, but we know it. We know it is because, yes, the banks care a lot about their reputation.
We are still having problems, as you know, with connectivity through State Information Technology Agency, Sita, and the banks use the same system and they are worried, thus I am confessing that they never told us, we just picked it up when you meet them that they don’t want the situation where you are queuing in a bank and the Sita system is down and it looks like it’s the bank that is down. They don’t like that, but the moment we resolve that issue because we are working around the clock to reverse it, I can tell you that the banks will come running because they themselves told us that if everybody who has got a bank account can have a smart ID card, no longer the old one. The banks said between themselves they would save close to R50 million in identity fraud. Therefore, they really want this system, is them who wants it, and we also want it.
However, we are letting down by the system downtime and the banks don’t want to take that risk. Thank you.
Mr F J MULDER: Hon House Chair, while recognising the efforts of the department to improve on the efficiency of services to eradicate long queues in the offices of Home Affairs and considering the huge backlogs, vacancy rates and budgetary
constraints, how will the department ensure the sustainability, and I want to stress the sustainability, of any renewal plans, and more specifically, the ability of the department to roll out these action plans countrywide, or is this only a desperate measure? Thank you, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF HOME AFFAIRS: Ja, it is not a desperate measure, hon members. Hon Liezl van der Merwe is correct. We have said this publicly about the shortage of staff in Home Affairs. Even the Minister of Finance, the present Minister, has accepted that. That is why he gave us an amount of
R266 million to increase staffing, but, unfortunately, that R266 million only amounts to 700 people who we have hired now, but we need much more than that. However, be that as it may, we are still meeting our targets. We are able to still offer or give 800 000 children birth certificates within the first
30 days of life. We are still able to do that, and we have reported that as part of our annual performance plan, APP. It does not necessarily mean that that other children are not getting their IDs, we are just saying that 800 000 are able to get them within the first 30 days of life.
You are aware that we are able to offer any South African a passport between five days and 13 days, actually. Anybody who
has applied for a passport recently will attest to that. If it comes to a push, we can even give you a passport within 24 hours, but we don’t want to make noise about that. So, I didn’t say it because quite a number of people, yes, don’t apply for their passports on time and they phone and say that they want it immediately. We are still able to do that and regardless of these problems, we are still able to issue.
Before coronavirus disease, Covid, we’re issuing three million smart cards per annum. It has gone a little bit down because of Covid, but we are now catching up again. Therefore, we do have these problems, but we are still trying our best.
Therefore, for this weekend to prepare for voter registration, we are opening Home Affairs offices, and we are giving people overtime payments in order for them to come and collect their IDs. Therefore, on the day, on the weekend of the registration, all Home Affairs offices will still be open regardless of the shortage so that anybody who wants an ID, or a replacement can get one to register. Thank you very much.
Question 608:
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, the State Security Agency, SSA, informed by its mandate, is monitoring developments in the conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. The specific problem of South Africans joining the ranks of
the Israeli defence force is receiving attention. However, this problem goes beyond Israel, it encompasses other conflicts where state and non-state players participate in training an armed conflict. Where sufficient evidence is available that breaches of the relevant laws have occurred, affected people must be prosecuted. There is an obvious need for a multilayered awareness campaign by all stakeholders. It is also a global challenge that requires discussion at a multilateral level. Such processes will, amongst others, involve regulating private security and intelligence organizations regulating access to arms, regulating the outsourcing of war or privatization of war, and regulating how citizens joined the defence forces of other countries. One must emphasize the fact that the SSA will continue to respond within the parameters of its mandate. For this question to be adequately answered, it should also be forwarded to other stakeholders such as the Defence, which will also respond in terms of the Foreign Military Assistance Act and the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, who are responsible for prosecuting in terms of the Act. Thank you.
Mr A M SHAIK EMAM: Thank you, Minister, yes, it has been addressed with other relevant departments as well. The fact that you say this matter is receiving attention, how soon can
we have a response given the fact that South Africans serving in the Israeli defence force are publicly bragging about serving in this army and because of that, committing atrocities against innocent Palestinian civilians, women, and children?
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, as indicated, that portion of the question will have to be forwarded to the Minister of Defence in terms of Foreign Military Assistance Act, because that’s where they will then be able to determine how long and the National Prosecuting Authority, who are the prosecutors. Our responsibility will be to provide the details of those who are participating in that war, who are South Africans. Thank you.
Mr J J MAAKE: Chairperson, we are all aware that we have private military companies across the world that are involved in the conflict areas all over the world, of which South African citizens participate in, like the case of South Africans who were arrested in Iraq at some stage. How will the state ensure that there are tighter regulatory mechanisms to stop South Africans from participating in such private military companies because it will mean that South Africa is producing and exporting dogs of war or missionaries that go
around maiming women and children and committing genocide? Thank you, Chairperson.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, the question of the participation of South African citizens in private military companies, as indicated earlier, will need multiparty collaboration. On our part, our responsibility is that when South Africans participate will find their details and pass them on to the relevant authorities because in South Africa it is illegal for South Africans to participate in military operations outside of the Republic where there are not sanctioned by the Republic or by the government. In the question specific to hon Maake, the response is that the National Prosecuting Authority will have to move with speed to prosecute those who are participating, not only in the Israeli war, but in any other part of the world and the Defence Department to attend to those who participate, who are former soldiers in terms of their benefits. Thank you.
Ms D KOHLER: While this question should be addressed to the Minister of Defence and is already dealt with through legislation via the Mercenaries Act and others. In that, we are just one of the two countries, ourselves, and the United States, with such legislation which sets out the legal
framework governing the involvement of their citizens in armed conflict abroad. The question remains that, as there are any
...
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Yes, I was waiting for the name Ms Kohler, don’t worry. Hon Luzipho, please mute.
Proceed, ma’am.
Ms D KOHLER: ... reports that former SANDF members are out there plying their trade in private security companies in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere in Eastern Europe, and perhaps the danger to this country, as it is well-known, there were South Africans who left the country and joined Isis and have since personally returned or their widows and children have returned to this country, Minister, do you know how many South Africans are working in these so-called security firms around the world as mercenaries, how many have returned to this country, and how many Isis followers and funders now reside here? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, as well as the hon Kohler Barnard indicated, the question must be referred to the Minister of Defence. Unfortunately, the follow up question is being directed at me. In terms of the ones who
are returning from Isis, we are working to trace them in line with the court order that we were given to make sure that when they are integrated, they are integrated into communities, and we will do what is necessary on our part to make sure that they do not rejoin the cells that they were party to. In terms of the number, unfortunately, hon Kohler Barnard will furnish it to the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence. Thank you.
Mr W M THRING: Minister the involvement of South Africans in conflicts or wars around the globe is well-known. It is said, for example, that there are South Africans fighting on both sides of the Russian-Ukraine war. It is also alleged that there are cells of Jihadist groups like Isis and Boko Haram operating in South Africa and that there are South Africans fighting alongside Isis in other countries, even including Hamas. Now, Minister which is the greater risk to South Africa, South Africans fighting the Israeli defence force or South Africans fighting alongside Jihadist groups and of Hamas, whose intent is to kill Jews wherever they may be found, and how is your department planning to deal with these perceived threats? Thank you.
The MINISTER IN THE PRESIDENCY: Hon House Chair, all the above are dangerous to the interests of the Republic because it’s
illegal in terms of South African laws to participate in any war sponsored by private companies or fight alongside the flag of other countries. So, all of them are dangerous and we treat them as equal as that. How we are doing it, that is the reason we can monitor the participation and pass the necessary information to the relevant law enforcement agencies so that they can do their part, which includes Defence. Thank you.
Question 619:
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson, to hon Seabi, the President of the Republic of South Africa established an inter-Ministerial Committee, IMC, in response to the escalation of politically linked incidences in KwaZulu- Natal in 2018. The IMC is composed of the Ministries of State Security, Defence, Police and Justice and Correctional Services.
The committee, which is led by the Minister of Police, is in charge of seeing to it that those responsible for crimes connected to politics are prosecuted. The IMC promotes unity, social cohesion and nation building in rural communities. This task team that has been established to investigate political killings is also tasked chairperson to deal with investigation of all murders of traditional leaders in the country.
The IMC established a multidisciplinary task team in July 2018 to develop and implement the strategy for investigating and prosecuting politically related cases, as I said, including those of traditional leaders. This team comprises of the State Security Agency, the Department of Justice and Correctional Services, the National Prosecution Authority and the South African Police Service.
A total number of 325 dockets based on the approved criteria for politically related crime incidents was assigned to the national task team. These cases spanned the years 2011 to the present and include attacks on sitting council members, former and candidate council members and office bearers for other political parties and municipal officials who end up as victims or as deceased, and these, as I said earlier on, include traditional leaders.
The category of cases include murder, attempted murder, intimidation, conspiracy to commit murder, extortion with intent to do grievous bodily harm and other cases related to political incidences. A total of 355 individuals have been arrested and charged thus far, and 65 of those apprehended have been found guilty. The national task team is expanding its investigation into political related cases, including
murders of council members, to other provinces where similar incidents are prevalent.
The task team implements the traditional policing concept with the focus to address crimes affecting rural communities, creates awareness and educate rural communities about violent crimes, including gender-based violence and femicide, among others, and to bring police services closer to rural areas.
Engagement with communities through Community Policing Forum, CPF, is also key in the addressing of violent crimes in these communities.
The South African Police Service, Saps, has a good working relationship with communities in most policing areas. All police stations have active CPF structures, with the exception of three stations which have been exempted from establishing CPF due to the transitionary nature of the communities which they serve. These police stations are Boetsap, Mokopong and Kubusiedrift. The CPF structures are also in place at district, provincial and national levels.
Where challenges arise, CPF structures work with Saps management to reduce conflict. These relationships are not static but provide mechanisms to work together or address
challenges as they arise. The South African Police Service in consultation with the Civilian Secretariat has prioritised the enhancing of the function of community police forums so as to improve liaison between Saps and the communities they serve.
The finalisation of new CPF elections at all levels in compliance with the President’s 2023 state of the nation address requirement have been completed and newly elected CPFs and board members are being capacitated through specific training intervention. The financial support for the value of R70 million was allocated to CPF by Saps in the 2023-24 and we want to thank this honourable House for having supported the passing of our budget which include, for the first time, amounts allocated specifically for the CPFs.
The co-operation between Saps and communities includes the following categories of partnerships: Business partnerships, community-based partnerships, international partnerships, faith-based organisations, traditional leaders and non- governmental organisation partnerships. Thank you very much, House Chairperson, for the opportunity to respond to this question.
Mr A M SEABI: Hon House Chair, to the Deputy Minister, thank you very much for that comprehensive response ... [Interjections.]
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Vala, vala, vala Mama uMasondo.
Mr A M SEABI: Deputy Minister, given the fact that the festive season is around the corner, what further measures will the Department of Police employ to ensure a safe and peaceful festive season for South Africans? Thank you.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Seabi, thank you for the follow-up question. I must say that earlier on I mentioned that we have launched Operation Shanela which is a multidisciplinary programme intended at intensifying our fight against crime. This involves an approach where we use multidisciplinary forces to deal with this challenge. It is within this Operation Shanela that we have launched the safer festive season in the City of Cape Town on 15 October 2023 under the theme “Combating crime through decisive police action and robust community engagement”.
This is a campaign that we have been running since 13 October and it will end on 31 January to ensure that South Africans enjoy a festive season that is free from criminality and are able to rest after a long year of work that they have conducted themselves in.
We have been running this is a programme throughout the years. Every time we approach the festive season, we have a festive season campaign. The difference this time around is that the festive season is launched within the context where we are intensifying our policing efforts through Operation Shanela.
Thank you very much, House Chairperson.
M.Gen O S TERBLANCHE: Hon House Chairperson, to the Deputy Minister, thank you. We are very glad that this committee has been established, but your response, with all due respect, I found it to be all over the place and not really successful anywhere. My question is: Will you consider revisiting your plan or strategy because at the moment it appears that in terms of detection, prosecution and conviction you are not really making the grade? Your response, please.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chairperson, I tried to listen attentively to the question, but I was unable to
pick up the ‘all over the place’ that the hon member is referring to. Because I had to allow you to finish speaking, I realised that the ‘all over’ was not specified, which clearly means that you were not fully ready to ask this specific question.
However, I must say that Operation Shanela is responding appropriately. I said that since it was launched to date we have arrested over 200 000 people who were wanted and as we speak they are going through the justice system through our court processes. I am quite confident that this is yielding results because if we arrested people without proper facts, most of them will be outside as we speak, but people arrested under Operation Shanela are inside.
This operation is not all over; there are areas where for instance we focus on wanted criminals. These 200 000 were specifically looked for throughout the length and breadth of the country and we found them wherever they were hiding and as we speak, they are in detention awaiting to face the consequences of their own actions. So, it is not everywhere.
The roadblocks that we conduct are not roadblocks that are everywhere; they are roadblocks that are in specific areas
that are problematic. Also, the searches that we conduct are intelligence driven and they are yielding results ... [Time expired.] Thank you, House Chairperson.
Ms Z MAJOZI: Hon House Chairperson, to the hon Deputy Minister, in KwaZulu-Natal Inkosi Khumalo was violently attacked around first week of October and the South African Police Service said they will do something which was last year. Two weeks ago, he was killed with his wife and leaving a five-year-old child. Your Inter-Ministerial committee and all these processes that you mention now are just lip service – nothing is being done on the ground. What can you promise or commit to that the killing of izinduna, amakhosi and councillors in these areas, especially KwaZulu-Natal and other provinces where izinduna and amakhosi are, will be of your government’s priority? Thanks, House Chair.
Ms M S KHAWULA: Thanks very much, hon Majozi.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, Deputy Minister. Order, members, order!
IsiZulu:
Uyabona ukuthi wenzeni Mam’ uKhawula manje? Sengikhathele ukukhalimana nawe.
English:
Proceed, hon Deputy Minister.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: It is only hon Khawula who can do that. Thank you, hon Majozi, for that question. I must say that it is sad that Inkosi Khumalo passed on in the manner in which he did, and our condolences to his family and the royal house of the Khumalos because he passed on together with his wife.
I will not go into the specific place in terms of where the investigations are because it is a subject that is being investigated by police. We are committed to ensure that our traditional leaders, councillors, politicians and even South Africans are safe. However, we will need society to be helpful in this regard, including those affected families and political organisations that these members belong to. I think if they conduct themselves in a manner that is appropriate, we wouldn’t be here.
From the police, we will do everything possible to deal with this act of criminality and in this specific case, despite the Ministerial committee and the task team established, the National Commissioner has interfaced with the Provincial Commissioner that a special team must be put together to work on this specific case of Inkosi uKhumalo. We, however, as the South African police have a programme on traditional policing which was launched in Nongoma under isilwane, and may his soul continue to rest in peace. We believe ...
IsiZulu:
... Isilo! Isilo! Futhi anginayo inkomo ...
Nk M S KHAWULA: Hhayi! Akahlawule lona. Usebize iSilo sethu ngesilwane.
USEKELA NGQONGQOSHE WAMAPHOYISA: Isilo Samabandla.
Nk M S KHAWULA: Akahlawule inkomo.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: May his soul rest in peace. That programme is intended to bring policing closer to traditional leaders and it requires traditional leaders to play an active role in this regard. If this programme can be
strengthened throughout the length and breadth of our country, incidences of this nature will not happen because traditional communities and the leadership of the traditional house will be able to provide what is needed to ensure that we don’t have this form of activity happening. We are confident that as we unroll this programme, and it is implemented in all areas of traditional leaders, we would have resolved this matter because we believe communities ...
IsiZulu:
USIHLALO WENDLU (Nk M G Boroto): Asiyivale Baba.
The DEPUTY MINISTEROF POLICE: Thank you very much.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Thank you. The hon Mam’uKhawula ...
IsiZulu:
... waphinda futhi, uzoyibukela kumabonakude ngoba uzoba uzophuma la.
English:
Hon Gericke, are you back?
Mr V GERICKE: Yes, House Chair, good afternoon. Sorry I experienced some connecting problems here.
The HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms M G Boroto): Proceed, no problem.
Mr V GERICKE: Thank you. To the Deputy Minister, a radio presenter in KwaZulu-Natal called out the abuse of power and indiscriminate killings done by the National Intervention Unit, NIU in response at a funeral of an NIU member who was gunned down. You or the Minister blamed Zim dollar for the murder of that officer, thereby exposing her to undue public scrutiny and also placing her life at risk. In retrospect, were your comments unwarranted? What impact do utterances like that have on the willingness of the public to call out unlawfulness, even if done by the police? Thank you, House Chair.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF POLICE: Hon House Chair, this issue of hon Gericke of Zim dollar I can’t comment on, but it is a matter that must be investigate. If we are given appropriate information, we will follow it up because I don’t have details of that, House Chair. Thank you very much.
Question 648:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
hon House Chairperson. On 5 June 2023, the director-general and I accompanied by senior officials and delegations from the National Prosecuting Authority, NPA, visited the United Arab Emirates, UAE, and met His Excellency Abdullah bin Sultan bin Awad Al Nuaimi, the Minister of Justice in the UAE and His Excellency Judge Abdul Rahman Murad Al-Blooshi, the Director of International Co-operation in the UAE central authority to engage the authorities in the UAE on the extradition request with regard to the Gupta brothers.
This was followed by further virtual technical meeting between the prosecutors in the UAE and South Africa on 15 June 2023.
In this meeting South Africa emphasised the need for the UAE to respond to the letter sent by the South African central authority on 25 April 2023, requesting several clarifications and information from the UAE on the successful extradition request which is important for the resubmission by the National Prosecution Authority. Since that meeting there has also been several notes verbales that have been dispatched to the UAE from our central authority requesting the same responses which are central regarding the resubmission by the National Prosecuting Authority to the request. To date neither responses have been received nor they are forthcoming.
We therefore continue to engage with the authorities with the hope that political and diplomatic intervention will exert pressure to enable the UAE’s central authority to respond to these crucial questions that have been submitted by the central authority. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr W HORN: Thanks, House Chair. Minister, you seem much like the Minister of Police. You also have been to all over the place. If we understand it correctly since the letter of 25 April, it is six months that has now gone by and to date no response despite your personal visit. Maybe one can say that, Minister, this business without achieving much is threatening to be the hallmark of your tenure. Can you at least inform South Africans that when you had that personal visit you at least established whether the Gupta brothers, who were arrested in terms of the Interpol Red Notice and not necessarily because of our extradition request, are they still under arrest there in the UAE or are they still in the UAE?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chair. The response was specific to the question. It was not all over. The engagement that we had with the authorities in the UAE were in line with the extradition treaty between the two state parties. We were able to engage
with the authorities and established issues in relation to the extradition treaty. One of the issues that we wanted to establish is in line with article 5(1)(a) of the treaty that indicates that where there is a charge or competent jurisdiction, the authorities in the UAE are obliged to charge with regard to the charge of money laundering. They have also not yet charged them or indicated whether they will charge them or not. We have also asked them of the whereabouts of the Gupta brothers. They also stated to us that they don’t know, and they are not aware.
In line with an international law the last position of sight is the last sight through which they are supposed to be requested from. They were arrested on the base of the Red Notice that was issued in collaboration with the authorities here in South Africa. That is an international standards with the arrest of any fugitive in any country. The extradition process follows the arrest. That is how it is done anywhere in the world. The Red Notice remains active. As we speak now that is the last country of sight and we will continue to pursue the diplomatic channels so that the UAE respond and attend to the extradition treaty as per the agreement between the two countries. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Ms A RAMOLOBENG: Thanks, House Chair. Thanks, Minister for the quite comprehensive response that you have given to the hon Horn. Minister, what are some of the lessons that we have learnt in this particular extradition as government given that South Africa and the UAE have different legal systems, or they employ different legal systems compare to ours? Thanks!
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chairperson. Extradition in any country remains a polycentric issue which involves both diplomatic and legal processes. It is against this background that we have followed a multipronged strategy to engage with the UAE both in terms of diplomatic channels and also in terms of the extradition treaty. It is clear to us that going forward with any extradition matter in any country where the Republic of South Africa is involved, we need to adopt a multipronged approach which includes politics and diplomatic and also follow the legal processes in terms of the extradition agreements that have been signed by both parties. In this regard we will continue to enforce this extradition agreement that exist between the two countries and also the UN convention in relations to matters of this nature. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, I wish to emphasise that the failure to meet the required standards for legal documentation appears to reflect a capacity shortfall within the department. In light of this, could the Minister provide insights into the specific measures and strategies being implemented to bolster the department’s capacity and proficiency ensuring that it can meet the expected standards and complexities inherent in matters of this nature? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chairperson. I can state with authority that we don’t have a challenge of capacity. The Department of Justice handles extradition requests on a day-to-day basis.
It’s our daily bread and we are experts on the matter. We liaise with many foreign jurisdictions where we do hand over international fugitives in our country. They also do the same with us on a day-to-day basis. We are able to handle it. In this regard it is a unique and a peculiar situation with the UAE related to the context. It is context specific and it will be dealt with in that regard.
I am saying this in terms of article 17 of the United Nations Convention Against Corruption. It states it very clearly that
before refusing extradition the requested state shall where appropriate consult with the requesting state to provide it with ample opportunity to present its opinions and to provide information related to the allegations. There is no time where you can use technicality not to respond and comply with an extradition treaty. This is also stated in the conventions of the United Nations. We have complied and the UAE must just respond to the questions asked by the central authorities.
Thank you, House Chairperson.
Mr F J MULDER: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister Lamola, regardless of the ongoing interaction between the government of South Africa and the Arab Emirates on the details and technicalities that lead to the dismissal of the extradition application of the Gupta brothers, one should surely recognise that in this specific instance justice delayed is justice denied with inevitable and detrimental consequences. What alternative remedies will be at the disposal of the South African government should the current process of negotiation and interaction fail? Thank you, House Chair.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon Chairperson. As I have said, extraditions
across the globe are issues of diplomatic, political and also legal nature and that is what we will continue to pursuit, including the UN conventions governing matters of this nature.
As the South African government, as I have said, we remain committed to ensure that the extradition treaty is complied with by the requested state, and we will also continue to use multilateral platforms to exert the necessary diplomatic pressure to the UAE to do what is in terms of the extradition agreement. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Question 653:
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Thank you very much, Chairperson, the answer to the question is that I have not tabled a proposal to the Cabinet for the expulsion of the Ambassador of Israel to South Africa. As hon members would be aware, given the Cabinet briefing, the Cabinet has decided that we should recall our officials from Israel this time for consultations. Should there be any further action to be taken by the government, we obviously would make the necessary statements. Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, when we were busy debating your ministerial statement yesterday, the
genocide Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was busy telling the world that he will continue with the genocide in Gaza. We hear all the politics and explanations, we agree that what is happening and has been happening in Palestine, Gaza at the moment the killing of children, innocent people is genocide. We agree that the International Crimes Court must issue a warrant of arrest. We welcome the decision to recall our diplomatic representation from the Tel Aviv. We just want to know what is it that must happen to completely cut all ties with Israel, so that we know where you stand next week when we bring a motion for Parliament to call on the government to expel the Ambassador of Israel, from South Africa? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Chairperson, clearly the EFF has the role in Parliament of presenting any motion that it wishes to present. We have expressed our views with respect to the current carnage that is underway in the Palestinian territories against the people of Palestine, particularly innocent civilians. We’ve made our views as the government of South Africa very clearly known and the member is aware of them. With respect as to further action, obviously the department and government are playing a role in concert
with other nations to discuss how we work together, to arrive at a point where there are prospects for peace in that part of the world. As to expulsion, there is no decision with respect to that at this moment. Should such a decision be made, we certainly would come into the public space and make the necessary announcement. I thank you, Chairperson.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Are you not B S Nkosi?
Mr B S NKOSI: Yes, I am.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): It’s a second supplementary question.
Mr B S NKOSI: It’s hon Nqola. Okay.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon members, probably so that you can clarify yourself let me go to hon M Hlengwa.
Mr M HLENGWA: No, thank you very much.
IsiZulu:
Ngesikhathi besalungisa ngizobe ...
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): No, hon
members, I have given hon M M Hlengwa will come back to the ANC.
Mr M HLENGWA: Thank you very much, hon Chairperson. Minister, given the complexity and probably that is an understatement, but for the purposes of this question, it may suffice of the realities prevailing on the ground in the Israeli Palestinian conflict. It is obviously prudent that South Africa’s prisons remains on the ground. Having said that, is the pointed question then. Is government considering withdrawing our representation from Israel because as you say that a decision has not been taken but we need to know what we are dealing with and in light of the fact that earlier on you spoke about the support NGOs are providing South Africa's presence, circumstances notwithstanding, is important. and so the question really is, Is this something that government has placed on the table and thinking about and if so, what would be the reasons for it? Thank you.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): I think the Minister has got a technical problem. The DM is prepared to take the response.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Mr A Botes): Yes, thank you very much, to the IFP’s hon Hlengwa. What government has done is in May 2018 recalled the South African Ambassador from Tel Aviv. So, that was the first step. Given the incremental action of the state of Israel, which we regard at this moment as genocidal. We then took a decision which was announced by the Minister of the Presidency to recall the entirety of our diplomatic personnel which since 2018, was headed by El Shahed for further consultation. So, that is where we are. So, we have recalled the entirety of our representation from 2018, including the El Shahed. So, that is the obviously fortified action that government has taken in response to the conduct of the state of Israel against the people of Palestine. Thank you, hon Chairperson.
Mr X NQOLA: Thank you very much, House Chair. Hon Deputy Minister, South Africa has always been consistent on the preference for negotiations to resolve international disputes, and this has been the call of government for the cease-fire in
the war in Gaza. Given that the Secretary-General of the United Nations condemns the killing of civilians in Gaza and express dismay by reports that two thirds of those who have been killed are women and children, what diplomatic efforts are being pursued by South Africa to call Israel to stop the attacks and resort to a peaceful resolution of the Israeli Palestine question? Thank you very much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Mr A Botes): Yes, thank you very much, Madam Chair, firstly, the current action of the state of Israel against the occupied people of Palestine requires an authoritative moral compass of the entirety of the world. Because of our history of being subjected equally to an oppressive regime, South Africa has obviously rich experience and wisdom to occupy that centre moral voice in regard to this conduct, hon Chair. But equally so, we have learnt from our own history that to construct a peaceful world requires to have in your repository key instruments that would enhance peace diplomacy. We have demonstrated that through our own peaceful transition. We have demonstrated that when we forge unity of purpose through the Good Friday agreement in relation to Northern Ireland and the UK. We have demonstrated that through the innovative action taken by President Ramaphosa to lead the African Peace
Initiative on the Ukrainian war and at this current moment, we are engaging with a number of both state and nonstate actors. In relation to how we can support the work of the United Nations Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, obviously under the stewardship of the UN Security Council and our Minister Dr Pandor had made that substantive case at the session of the UN Security Council two weeks back. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
Mr S N SWART: Thank you, House Chair, rising from your response, Deputy Minister and Minister at no stage following the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which led to the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent women and children, did the South African government consider downgrading its Embassy in Russia, withdrawing its diplomats, or expelling the Russian ambassador despite an ICC warrant of arrest against President Putin for war crimes? Indeed, some four months into the war, the Minister said the international community must focus on finding a sustainable solution. The Minister emphasised that it will not be found in isolating one party or bringing it to its knees, yet this is precisely what the ANC government is doing to Israel, wanting to isolate it and bring it to its knees. Deputy Minister, do you not then agree that it is crucial to maintain diplomatic ties and communication even
with those countries you may differ from, particularly to find out about the information on the ground, and what Deputy Minister steps are being taken to release the hostages, including a South African hostage held by Hamas? I will appreciate your response to that. Thank you so much.
The DEPUTY MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-
OPERATION (Mr A Botes): Thank you very much, hon House Chair, obviously, hon Swart, Sir, there is a UN Security Council resolution which the entirety of the UN Security Council have agreed to with 14 members of the UN Security Council that acclaimed that the conduct of the Israeli state as it relates to the occupation of Palestine land that includes Gaza, West Bank and even East Jerusalem was illegal, Madam Chair. That is contained in the UN Security Council 2334 the only country that abstained from that vote was the United States of America. They did not oppose it. So, the entirety of the 15 members of the UN Security Council has proclaimed the illegitimate conduct of the state of Israel. So, that is the difference.
Secondly, House Chair, as it relates to the Ukrainian war, we take our prescripts. Obviously, we draw inspiration from standing UN Security Council decision in as early as 2015,
Madam Chair. Once again, the United Nations Security Council passed a resolution 2202, which underpin the Minks Agreement as the framework for the resolution of the conflict as it relates to Eastern Ukraine. In the United Nations Security Council, you have the members of the P5 permanent members with a veto right. Those members, hon House Chair, renegaded on their responsibility to implement their own decisions and that is the two differences in relation to the Ukrainian war and in relation to the war against the Palestine people because what we must be clear about, Madam Chair, the Palestine people are the occupied people, the Israeli state is the occupying force. Thank you very much.
Question 622:
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chairperson. The Department of Correctional Services and the Centre for Scientific and Industrial Research, CSIR, have collaborated in developing ten prototype bracelets, also known as the electronic monitoring systems. This is research development project and was developed to improve the functionality such as system integration, location-ware geographical fencing. This was aimed at ensuring that South Africa owns the intellectual
property rights and data storage that will be of South African base system.
The department is finalising the preparation for safety tests for use by humans, usually provided by an external body of authority in environmental impact analysis. The test will be at various geographical locations over a period of three months from 13 November to 31 January 2024, while concentrated in the province of Gauteng. Thank you.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Minister. I now recognise the hon N H Maseko-Jele. Thank you.
Ms N H MASEKO-JELE: Thank you House Chair and thank you to the Minister for the answer. Minister, acknowledging that the electronic monitoring system, EMS, is still in its testing stages. Noncustodial care will result in inmates being brought back to the society, particularly the very society or communities they have offended. So Mr Minister, what are the department’s plans for community engagements before offenders are released? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chair. There is a process of victim
offender dialogues, VOD, which includes victim and offender dialogues and engagements with communities to make them aware of the rehabilitation programmes at correctional services, including the programmes related to parolees. This project will also enhance that monitoring system, hence a need to engage with the community so that they are also aware of the programme that the Government Communication and Information Systems, GCIS, is developing with the CSIR which will help with geolocation and also with detection technology in relation to the parolees. So, in this process of reintegration and the process dealing with the parolees, it is important that society is involved and it is an integral part of the project. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Mr J ENGELBRECHT: Thank you, House Chair. Minister, this is not a new thing. This goes back many years, in fact, 10 years almost to the day - 11 November 2013, the Department of Correctional Services launched EMS. A vast amount of money was spent on electronic monitoring bracelets for parolees and probationers in the past. These bracelets lie unused due to the department not having upgraded the required software. What guarantee is there that this will simply not happen again?
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Hon Chair,
it is a fact that this is our own product. We are no longer relying on external or original manufacturer. The department and the CSIR will now be the original manufacturers. We will own the intellectual property, IP - we will own everything, which means that we will also be able to upgrade the software. So, the story of the past will not happen again on the basis that this will now be handled by us and developed by us. Even if we go to the market for mass production, we will be the owners of the IP and the software, which means that the upgrading part will remain on our hands. This is part of building a capable Department of Correctional Services that is self-sufficient. Thank you, hon House Chair.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Thank you, hon House Chair. Hon Minister, in light of the experience of your predecessor, former Minister Sbu Ndebele, who previously launched the electronic monitoring system using ankle bracelets and highlighted its advanced features, it’s crucial to understand how the department plans to assess the effectiveness and reliability of the ankle bracelets during the upcoming field tests. Can you provide insights into the specific mechanisms and criteria in place to evaluate the performance of these ankle bracelets? How will the data being collected be analysed and utilised to enhance
the supervision and monitoring of parolees ... [Time expired.]
... and prisoners awaiting trial.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you. Hon Minister, I understand his challenge - just bear with me.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you,
hon House Chair. As I said in the original response that the research and development project is developed to improve the functionalities such as system integration, location awareness and geographical fencing. Regarding this type of the state-of- the-art capability, the department is working with a state institution charged with research on behalf of the state - the CSIR. The CSIR has the capability which will help us to monitor whether what has been developed in collaboration with it responds to these issues of geographic location, how the data is captured, how the communication between officials and the community is therefore stored and used for the purpose of geolocation and also of monitoring the parolees.
So, the CSIR with this state-of-the-art technology and research capabilities, will help the department both in the improvement and also in the mass production of the product when it has been confirmed to be of human use and that it is
technologically proof and ready to be deployed in the society. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Adv B J MKHWEBANE: Thank you, Chairperson. Hon Minister, while the monitoring of parolees and probationers is important, most of the violent crimes in this country happen because of the ability of inmates to continue keeping contact with people on the outside. Have you considered asking the CSIR to develop a system that would eliminate and supervise telephone contact between prisoners and those on the outside? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: Thank you
very much, hon House Chairperson. Yes indeed, we also have a project different and separate from this one. It is the same with the CSIR which is aimed to help us with regard to the technology that will enable us to stop the use of cellphones and other telephone communication methods or internet providers or whatever method of communication by inmates unsupervised and during the lock-up period. This has been unfortunately delayed by a number of regulatory challenges which we have since discovered. When the first issue like signal gems and other deployments were suggested by the CSIR, it was discovered that that will be in violation of the Independent Communications Authority of South Africa, Icasa,
regulations. The regulations provide for telecommunications in various communities because the inmates - if you look at them
- are in a type of setup in which they are not the only people, but there are more people who must access telecommunications.
So, that’s why we are working with the CSIR to find an innovative way that will enable us to manage this situation where the inmates cannot be able to communicate with the outside world. And also, the outcomes of that will soon be released in between the discussion of Correctional Services and the CSIR. Thank you, hon House Chair.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Minister hon members, it has been brought to my attention that the Question 610 in the name of hon Hendricks may anticipate a matter that is scheduled for the debate on Tuesday, 14 November 2023 in terms of Rule 90. The question of hon Hendricks is very broadly framed and seems to relate specifically to the intention of the department to introduce a Bill in the future. I would like to caution that this question and any supplementary questions do not anticipate a matter that will be before the House next week. The question may
nevertheless be proceeded with. I now recognise the hon Minister in terms of Question 610, the hon Minister?
Question 610:
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, we will proceed in line with your guidance for the benefit of society. The Divorce Amendment Bill introduced by the Department of Justice and Constitutional Development seeks to give effect to the Constitutional Court order in Women Legal Centre Trust case. There is no intention to rewrite Sharia Law as suggested by the hon member.
In granting the order, the Constitutional Court directed the recognition of Muslim marriages as valid marriages under civil law. This is the ConCourt is not the department.
The Constitutional Court declared that the Divorce Act to be inconsistent with the Constitution in that it fails to recognise marriages, solemnised in accordance with Sharia Law, Muslim marriages which have not been registered as civil marriages.
The Constitutional Court also declared sections 673 and 91 of the Divorce Act unconstitutional because it fails to safeguard
the welfare of minor or dependent children born of Muslim marriages on dissolution of the Muslim marriages in the same or similar manner as minor or dependent children born of other marriages that are dissolved.
It also does not provide for the redistribution of assets on the dissolution of Muslim marriages. When such redistribution will be just.
Further provision for the forfeiture of the patrimonial benefits of Muslim marriages at the same time of its dissolution is not catered for in the same or similar way as it does in respect of other marriages that are dissolved.
The women’s legal centre case extends the protection of the Divorce Act, to parties to a Muslim marriages, particularly recognising the plight of vulnerable women, married according to Islamic law and children of Muslim marriages. Failing to extend the benefits and protection of the Divorce Act to Muslim marriages infringes the rights of women and children born of Muslim marriages.
Far from rewriting Sharia Law, the Bill recognises the default matrimonial property regime of Muslim marriages as being out
of community of property. The Bill provides for the amendment of section 7 of the Divorce Act, that when a court granting a decree of divorce in respect of marriages, out of the community of property, it must redistribute assets of that marriage on the application in the absence of any agreement.
The Bill is in line with the Constitutional Court judgment, which also stated the constitutionality of Sharia marital law is not under consideration. It was concerned about the hardships faced by women in Muslim marriages, as the consequences of being excluded from the benefits derived from the Marriage Act and the Divorce Act.
The Bill does not aim to rewrite religious law or to make it inferior to civil law. Muslim couples may still abide by the tenets of Sharia Law. Parties to Muslim marriages may still continue to dissolve their marriages and regulate the consequences thereof in accordance with their faith.
The Bill provides a means for parties to Muslim marriages to dissolve their marriage in terms of civil law, which is a remedy that has been denied to women and children in Muslim marriages, and this is in compliance with the Constitutional Court Order.
We are therefore not rewriting the myriad regime that is for Ntate Motsoaledi. Thank you, hon House Chairperson.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Thank you very much hon, the people’s Minister and thanks for your generosity in providing a response. People’s Minister, our Constitution provides for a reasonable accommodation with regard to personal law... [Interjection.]
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order, hon members, from both sides.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: ... the ConCourt made an order, that is Sharia marriage, and it follows its consequences like divorce or valid South African marriages.
Minister it is not the democratic and the right thing, not to engage with Muslim, all our bodies like United Ulama Council of SA, UCCSA, Muslim Judicial Council, MJC and Shura.
As you proceed, in our view, to change Islamic Sharia divorce law, not a single ... [Inaudible.] ... body supports the unilateral approach you have that the Constitution trumps
people’s faith. And this Act will harm the faith of Muslim women.
And we feel that you have given us some comforting words. There is going to be a debate, but we just want to ask whether how you feel about the constitutional provision that there must be reasonable accommodation and that the Constitution does not always necessarily have to trump in this case, Islamic Sharia marriage law with regard to the divorce? Thank you, House Chairperson.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House Chair
indeed, the Bill has a reasonably accommodated the Sharia Law, because when you look at, it is not dealing with how Sharia Law in terms of their faith they regulate their marriages is only dealing with the issue of what happens when there is a divorce. And that is what we are regulating now, that when there is a divorce. When you divorce in a marriage that has been agreed upon in terms of Sharia Law, it must be done the same way the civil marriage is done. That is what the court is saying. The Constitutional Court is what has directed us.
And the Constitutional Court is directing us to do this Bill to protect the vulnerable people, the children and the women
who become affected in terms of benefits of the assets when there is a divorce in a marriage that has been constituted in terms of Sharia Law. That is all that the Bill is doing and nothing more. The rest of regulating the Sharia marriages and so forth, I believe that the hon Motsoaledi, the Minister of Home Affairs, is busy with a Bill that will deal with all those aspects.
Our aspect ends when the marriage is divorced. So, Ntate Motsoaledi is the happy one who makes them happy. Ourselves unfortunately, we have the unfortunate duty of coming when things are bad. Where there is the divorce. And we have to manage and help the vulnerable people and that is what we are doing with the Bill. Thank you, House Chair.
The ACTING CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Order members, order, order, order! Order Chief Whip of the Majority Party. Hon members, allow me to recognise hon W S Newhoudt-Druchen overcome to you, mam.
Ms W S NEWHOUDT-DRUCHEN: Thank you, hon Minister, public participation processes with regard to the Divorce Amendment Bill is now under way in the National Assembly. Given the importance of this legislation, which also seeks to protect
the interests of women, how much public awareness has the department raised, particularly amongst the members of the Muslim community who are affected by this legislation? Thank you, House Chairperson.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson, the department usually engaged with relevant stakeholders before it introduces a Bill. In this regard, we continue to engage with society. Even hon Hendricks who asked the question, we are open also to engage with him, so that we clarify that we are complying with what the Constitutional Court order has said.
And also, the committee itself is engaged in public participation where the relevant stakeholders can further strengthen and enhance the Bill so that it is in compliance with what the Constitutional Court expects us to do in terms of protecting the vulnerable, women and children in a situation of a divorce of Sharia marriage. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Adv G BREYTENBACH: Hon Minister, you truly are the people’s Minister. The Constitutional Court held that the Marriage Act and the Divorce Act discriminate unfairly and unjustly against
women in Muslim marriages, as it does not afford them the same rights afforded to women in non-Muslim marriages. The right to equality was therefore the deciding factor. Unfortunately, this right is not properly given effect to in the application of Sharia Law by some branches of the Muslim faith.
How will this government ensure that the application of the amended Marriage Act and Divorce Act does not allow the continued discrimination against Muslim women? Thank you, House Chairperson.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chairperson indeed, we are complying with the Constitutional Court order, that has provided for us to ensure that the Bill that we provide must give protection to the vulnerable groups, women and children, and we believe that is what the Bill is aimed to do, in a situation of a divorce of a Sharia marriage that is governed by Sharia Law. And that is what we are doing.
And as I have said earlier, the other part related to the Marriage Act belongs to the province of Ntate Motsoaledi and Home Affairs, and I believe they are dealing with them with the processes related to the Marriage Act and all its regulations.
So, from our side, we also believe that the portfolio committee will also help us, which hon Breytenbach also belongs to, to strengthen the Bill to ensure that it achieves the objectives of the Constitution and also comply with the Constitutional Court judgement. Thank you, House Chair.
Prof C T MSIMANG: Hon Minister, has the department engaged with Muslim communities, legal experts, and stakeholders, to gather, input and perspectives on the potential rewriting of Sharia Law and if so, what has been the nature of these consultations and if not, why not? Thank you, House Chair.
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CORRECTIONAL SERVICES: House
Chair, we have not engaged with the Muslim community in the context in which the hon member is saying. The context which is the potential to rewrite Sharia Law. We do not have an intention as the department to rewrite Sharia Law.
So, there is no need for us to engage with the community in that context, but we do engage with all stakeholders, including the Muslim community with regard to this Divorce Amendment Bill, which is aimed to comply with the Constitutional Court judgment, to protect the vulnerable
children born out of a Sharia marriage when there is a divorce.
That is the context in which we are engaging with all the stakeholders in relations to the Bill. And we have also been very clear, House Chair, even in this House, that all engagements and the engagements we are also having here is about the Bill At the stage of divorce, which is what the Department of Justice is engaged in.
We are not rewriting Sharia Law; we are dealing with the Divorce Act Amendment Bill and this Bill is in compliance with the Constitutional Court and it is also aimed to comply with the Constitution in regard to equality and also to protect vulnerable children and women.
And we engage with the stakeholders in that context, and we will continue to do so even at the portfolio committee, and I also believe that the portfolio committee, which has all political parties represented, will also engage to strengthen that aspect in the context of the Constitution and the Constitutional Court judgement. Thank you, House Chairperson.
Question 612:
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Chairperson, an answer to the question from the hon Nkosi: I think it’s absolutely critical for us to say that the coups that we have had on the continent have been a significant drawback in terms of the developmental aspirations of the continent as well as the progress we have begun to record with respect to progressing with silencing the guns on the continent and achieving good governance and progress in sustaining and entrenching democracy on the continent.
The five countries that have had the coups are under sanction by the African Union. There are various committees of the African Union that have been assigned to play the role of facilitator and as hon member would be aware it is regional body that take the leading role in engaging with transitional government or other post coups structures that are put in place in countries that have experienced that disruption.
It is not practice for Member States of the African Union to continue direct engagement with illegal government. It is rather the Peace and Security Council of the African Union or designated panels appointed by the African Union or the relevant regional body which in the case of Sahel is echoes the economic community of West African States. Echoes has
imposed sanctions on all the countries that are currently under military transitional government. Several of those government have not kept up to undertakings that they made the inspection of the military illegal takeover of power and it is clear that many of them did not have any good intention to restore democracy in their countries.
So, we are working closely as a member of the African Union Peace and Security Council with the African Union as well as with the regional body echoes in the case of Sudan with eager to assist where required. In fact, we have been in contact with the transitional council leadership of Sudan in an effort to assess whether it is possible for South Africa to play a role of support and we will continue those deliberations.
Thank you very much, Chairperson.
Mr B S NKOSI: Thank you, hon Minister, for the comprehensive response. I know that the emphasis is on regional bodies taking an initiative in restoring order in the affected regions. May I ask then, what the role of the international community will be in best supporting these efforts in overcoming these challenges?
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION: I
think that the first step that we have to take is, if there has been such a takeover of government, the first stage is to ensure protection of the civilian population, and of course, of the government that has been ousted from office because they turn to be acts of retribution as you would have been seen with respect to Niger. And so, the voice that we add to regional communities’ actions is to encourage the restoration of democracy and ensuring that the rule of law is restored to countries that are undergoing such a process.
In addition, we also recognised that one of the steps that we must undertake is an assessment as to the reasons for military takeover and ensure that we assist countries in particular with the practice of good governance and the provision of public services which satisfy populations needs. We have noted that in several of the countries that have experienced military takeovers the public have indicated strong support for such takeover and its vital therefore, that government that are in office are ensure that their responsive to the needs of their people.
One fact does not make reference to ease, of course, the very negative role that is sometimes played by external role-
players whose intention is really to steal the natural mineral resources of resource rich African countries and they are coming in the guise of being an international partner whereas their intention is to ensure that businesses from their countries become beneficiaries of the natural resources of our African countries. So, we have to address the negative role of external parties. Thank you.
Mr M G E HENDRICKS: Hon House Chair, the Republic of the Rif, also spelled Riff, was declared the first democratic country in the continent of Africa on 18 September 1921 before Africa was caught up. Today, seven million people are colonised by Morocco. Why South Africa help them to regain their democracy that the hon Nkosi is championing. So, we have hon champion promoting democracy. The Rif Republic is on the North West of Africa on the Southern shore of the Bali Strait and police stations are meant by the Moroccans and they take all the taxes. Thank very much, hon House Chair.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
South Africa does not have a particular role with the Republic that hon Hendricks has referred to. But clearly, with respect to Moroccan occupation of the land of the people of Western Sahara, we have played a supportive role in solidarity with
the people of Western Sahara and we continue to work closely with them to call for them to also enjoy freedom just as we do with the people of Palestine.
We are aware that the people of Western Sahara have their land occupied, their natural resources exploited and clearly it is South Africa’s role and obligation to ensure that wherever there is a colonial presence that we agitate against that presence and support people struggling for self-determination and freedom to achieve that objective, which the hon Hendricks is referred to, and he referred to 1921 as when imperialism took route in Africa when the Berlin Conference was held. That was in the late in the 1890s, and not 1921. So, the colonisation of Africa was much earlier, of course, we do know that it even preceded that Berlin Conference. Thank you, Chairperson.
Ms E L POWELL: Minister, close to 2 000 people have been slaughtered in ethnic killing in Darfur in recent days and yet your department said nothing about it. Minister, you are willing to discuss the gravity of some conflicts in Cabinet, in public meetings and parliamentary statements and the media but when innocent people die on African continent it seems that your department is contemporary saying nothing. Why is
this the case? And when will you publicly take action to condemn what has happened in the Darfur over the past week and after you have seen offering condolences. I thank you.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Indeed, we have offered condolences at the loss of lives at every occasion where such loss occurs and it is us who have pointed out the neglect of tragedies and conflicts on the African continent. The hon member does not have to try and remind me about the continent. We have always referred to the neglect of Africa. We have seen this time and time again; we see to the assistance given to Ukraine, the assistance given to Israel, which totally negates the minimal support given to African countries that are under dire straits due to colonisation by powerful Western countries.
So, it is not true that we do not care for the African continent. As the Department of International Relations and Co-operation, we are one of the largest development support partners for countries on the African continent and do play a role. But of course, we know that there are negative forces that often deny us this opportunity to play a role of development on the continent.
But all death is to be regretted and not to be raised merely for political posturing. It should be a genuine concern for all people, Africans, Europeans, Israelis, Palestinians, wherever such abuses occurred. We make reference to all who suffer ill. We do not selectively mention when there is a political opportunity. I thank you, Chairperson.
Mr M SHIKWAMBANA: Minister, the coups and uprising in West Africa have their genesis in the role played by France in that region. France continue to control of those who live in order to keep plundering the resources of the region. Have you together with the African Union reviewed the role played by France in the country with the purpose of ensuring that these countries gain full independence from this stubborn colonialist nation? Thank you, Chair.
The MINISTER OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND CO-OPERATION:
Clearly, the African Union works very closely on development issues with every country. But it is important to point out that it is often this government that have allowed the level of abuse and dominance that exist through countries such as France or other post-colonial powers who exercise a neo- colonial oversight over African countries. So, it is the people and the government of those countries as has happened
in Mali and other countries that they act against those that they believe are bringing negative actions into their country rather than supporting the important obligations of development.
Should South Africa be invited by those countries to play a role in developmental initiatives certainly South Africa would be ready to play such a role as we have been discussing with several countries in West Africa. But it is for them to be opened to such partnership and for them to be clear that they reject any dominance by a former colony or a former coloniser or a neo-colonial country that seeks to imposing new form of oppression and dominance on African countries. We must take up our own struggles as African countries and governments and ensure that we protect our countries from the negative influence of former imperial countries. Thank very much, Chairperson.
Question 614:
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chairperson,
hon members, we must accept that climate change is real. We must also accept that it is not just hitting South Africa. We have seen across the world rivers flowing, soils being taken, lives lost and this has not left South Africa in a better
place. I would like to take the onus and say yes, defence is the lead department, but it is not.
The lead department in the Welisizwe Rural Bridges Programme, as announced by the President, is the Department of Public Works, we work with them because we bring from our side military engineers, and up to about two weeks ago, even the designs were dictated upon by the Department of Public Works. They are the lead department because the budget goes to them. After all, the design was for them, because the green fleet had to be procured by them, and as I say, we would go there, take the skill and take our hands and work, but we think that it is a good programme because the Welisizwe Bridges have been able to reunite and bring dignity to especially the rural communities to create safe harbour for children to go to school and to enable people to trade because as we get in there as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans and the Department of Public Works, we also bring together the local government and the provincial governments and, therefore, with the procurement which the Department of Public Works does from the locals for the building materials business is enhanced.
The people who need to help in the hard work around ... the local people get jobs. So, all in all, I would say that it is a good programme. The second part of the question was saying how many bridges, especially in KwaZulu-Natal have been built thus far, since 2020, hon members, we have seen 24 bridges built in KwaZulu-Natal. In this current year, 10 bridges have also been completed. We now expect that between the end of November and the end of January, we will have completed 12 more bridges. This, as I said earlier on, will depend on the speed and quality of materials which the Department of Public Works will be able to bring to the fore so that when the soldiers get there, they get on with the business of building. So, the integration, as I have said, is good because it integrates four different segments of the government and begins to lay a foundation where you can have programmes across the government wall-to-wall. Thank you, Ma’am.
Ms T N MMUTLE: Thank you very much, House Chair and thank you
... [Interjections.] ...
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Hon Mmutle! Hon Lorraine ... [Interjections.] ... ICT, can you eject that member, please? [Interjections.] Yes, to be out of the system. Hon Mmutle, you may proceed.
Ms T N MMUTLE: ... hon Minister, considering the challenges faced by the department in so far as the fiscus is concerned, how are you intending to collaborate with other departments to develop strategies or measures that will ensure the ongoing effectiveness and longevity of the Welisizwe Rural Bridges Programme and its infrastructure initiatives in this respect? Thank you very much.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, hon
Mmutle, that was the point of the meeting two to three weeks ago between ourselves with Minister Zikalala and the two departments and the people responsible for the Welisizwe Bridges. We had seen one bridge and as far as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans was concerned, it was not fit. It was not suitable. It did not take into consideration the needs of the people, the animals, transport and all, and so we had a full meeting to say what can be done to improve. Also because we do have a financial issue as the Department of Defence and Military Veterans, when you take people out of defence headquarters and you take them to KwaZulu-Natal you must provide accommodation, you must provide food and you must provide somewhere where they sleep.
So, our arrangements with every department that we will be in support of is either they, as they approach us directly, are prepared to foot the bill or there is an arrangement from the Treasury to make sure that whatever it is that we had expanded is made good because the other way round is that we are never able to meet up with all our commitments which we have budgeted for because we keep on deviating and taking the little that we have to go and support of other departments.
Other departments have money, but we don't. So, that is what we are doing, but we think that we couldn't have been in a better world with the building of bridges because safety amongst South Africans is paramount for us, especially those who are in the rural areas, who are vulnerable, who are sometimes in very desolate places. It is important for us to participate there. Thank you.
Mr S J F MARAIS: Chairperson, Minister, the services under Operation Prosper are commendable by the defence force.
However, the consequences of the ongoing unfunded authorisations of deployments assisting other government departments to comply with their obligations to our citizens have a devastating effect on the financial sustainability of the Department of Defence and Military Veterans to fund essential defence force prime mission equipment maintenance
and upgrade priorities and our required defence readiness in terms of our constitutional mandate.
How much money is owed by other departments to the Department of Defence and Military Veterans for these unfunded services, including the bridges? How much have you been able to recover since and what will you do to ensure that full cost recovery of such unfunded services is secured within the respective financial year of those services? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Hon Marais,
forgets that I know the Rules. You are putting in a new question which requires me to bring new figures. I, therefore, undertake, hon Chairperson, to respond in full on the numbers we have expanded in Operation Prosper because I do not want you to say I misled the House but we are now beginning to insist that where we get deployed, just as we are doing with Eskom, pay for the services because otherwise you force us to deviate from what we have budgeted for and it costs us a bad audit because when the Auditor-General looks at it, they simply think you have taken a direction you shouldn't have taken even if it was in the interest of South Africa.
Therefore, we are beginning to say that we have offered accommodation for the police trainees, they are paying in kind, they fix the accommodation, and they leave it in a good state, which means we save the money to do that. So, we will do it with every department where we can, but we will also not forget that we do have a role to contribute towards making sure that South Africans are safe and free in their country.
Thank you.
IsiZulu:
Inkosi R N CEBEKHULU: Ngiyathokoza, Sihlalo weNdlu, mhlonishwa kuzwakale kahle uma uchaza umkhankaso umnyango okuwona ekwakhiweni kwamabhuloho kodwa engifuna ukukusho noma ukulandelela, sibona umnyango ugxila kakhulu emabhulohweni lapho kuwela khona izimoto lapho kuhlala khona imiphakathi.
Kunemifula emikhulu KwaZulu-Natal. Kunemindeni eyakhe ngaphesheya kwemifula izikole zona zikwelinye uhlangothi. Ngabe akhona yini, mangaki uma ekhona amabhuloho okanye imithantatho nje ewelwa ngezinyawo hhayi izimoto, ewelwa ngezinyawo izingane uma sisuka kulelo hlangothi ziya kolunye uhlangothi ziya esikoleni. Ngiyathokoza
IBAMBA LOSIHLALO WENDLU (Nk R M M Lesoma): Masibonge, Ndabezitha. Mphathiswa ohloniphekile, ungaphendula angizokusho ukuthi uzophendula kanjani. [Ubuwelewele.]
UNGQONGQOSHE WEZOKUVIKELA NEZIGAGAYI ZEMPI: Cha, ngiyabonga.
English:
It was precisely in KwaZulu-Natal handing over a bridge that we realised that some of the bridges were too narrow. They are not catering for the communities. There are cars, they are animals who pass. They are not catering for families to walk together and that is why we have called for a redo. So, the engineers from the military are insisting that they will look at the circumstances and the bridges that we build will be able to progressively allow communities to integrate, to be able to do business, to walk their animals over and to be able to bring back the dignity that the people need in those communities. So,
IsiZulu:
... siwabonile lamabhuloho angaka Baba.
English:
One of them only allows one person to go in one direction and it is difficult and that is why we said, no, we will not be part of it.
Mr W T I MAFANYA: House Chair, Minister, the SA National Defence Force, SANDF, has erected 34, according to you,
Bailey-type bridges over two years. The Engineer Formation committed to 95 rural bridges. How long will the balance of 61 bridges take to complete and at what cost to the SANDF considering that the SANDF Bailey bridges are depleted? I considered all your answers, Minister, hence I put this one as well, knowing that the Department of Public Works seems to be in charge of the situation, but at what cost, how much did they pay for the services that are done by the SANDF? Thank you.
The MINISTER OF DEFENCE AND MILITARY VETERANS: Chair, thus far
they are required to ensure that the yellow fleet is on the ground, the good material to build bridges of good standard is put in them and that by the end of our claim on the Subsistence and Travel, they repay it. It depends on the number of people who are deployed at a time. The number of bridges that you referred to are the ones that I specifically
quoted for KwaZulu-Natal. I will avail the total number for all the bridges.
Clearly, because of the issues of getting material on time on the ground, or getting the yellow fleet on time on the ground, we have not been able to do all 96 bridges, but now we are sure with Minister Zikalala that we will push and try and meet that target, and that is why throughout this next two months, the two departments with the provinces will be flat-out building those bridges. We may not attain the 96 that the President promised, but we will do our best to meet that record. Thank you, Chair.
The ACTING HOUSE CHAIRPERSON (Ms R M M Lesoma): Thank you, hon Minister. Hon members, as you might have noticed, the time allocated for questions has expired. Outstanding replies received will be printed in Hansard. Hon members, I request members to stand and wait for the Chair and the mace to leave the House. That concludes the business of the day. The House is adjourned.
The House adjourned at 18:12.
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