South African Police Service & Independent Complaints Directorate: Interrogation of Auditor’s Report on Financial Statements 200
Public Accounts (SCOPA)
26 January 2007
Meeting Summary
A summary of this committee meeting is not yet available.
Meeting report
STANDING COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC ACCOUNTS (SCOPA)
26 January 2007
SOUTH AFRICAN POLICE SERVICE & INDEPENDENT COMPLAINTS
DIRECTORATE: INTERROGATION OF AUDITOR’S REPORT ON FINANCIAL STATEMENTS 2005-06
Chairperson: Mr T Godi (PAC)
Documents handed out:
None
Relevant Documents:
Annual Report of the South African Police Service
(available at www.saps.gov.za)
Annual Report of the Independent Complaints Directorate (available at www.icd.gov.za)
SUMMARY
The Auditor General’s Report on the 2005/6 financial statements of the South
African Police Service was interrogated. Members were concerned about
allegations of misuse and mismanagement of vehicles, and the monitoring
mechanisms put in place, the equal distribution of resources across stations,
misplaced firearms, firearms still held by other government departments, and
the implementation of control mechanisms. Further questions related to the
preparedness for the World Cup and the training of members, training of
detectives, the discrepancies in the SAPS and Auditor General’s reports on the
police forensic laboratories and the effectives and reliability of the crime
statistics. The costs in policing abalone and cable theft were also raised. The
evaluation and effectiveness of the police service was examined. Members
highlighted problems in monitoring and implementation of some policies.
The Auditor General’s report on the financial statements of the Independent
Complaints Directorate had highlighted several issues. Members queried the
travelling and subsistence allowances, the suspense account, the funds not
recovered from the Department of Public Works and the position in the debtors
department. It became clear that many of the answers given related to lack of
capacity. The staff problems and vacancies, the difficulties in retaining
skilled staff and the competitiveness of salaries were questioned. The
Committee interrogated whether the entity was functioning and viable, feeling
that it was facing a crisis situation, and expressed concern that no permanent
chief executive officer had been appointed for eight years, despite the fact
that Treasury funding was available.
MINUTES
South African Police Service (SAPS) Interrogation of Audit Report 2005/6
Mr E Trent (IFP) asked SAPS to provide comments on the allegations of
misuse and mismanagement of police vehicles. He asked whether there were enough
police vehicles to ensure effective service delivery. He asked for clarity on
the monitoring and control mechanisms that were in place to ensure that police
vehicles were looked after properly.
MrJackie Selebi, National Commissioner, SAPS argued that the allegations behind
the misuse if vehicles were incorrect. He stated that there was no such concept
as “after hours” for police vehicles, and that operational vehicles were used
at a full-time rate. He also stated that in terms of the given government
resources, there were enough vehicles. SAPS had worked out a system to ensure
that in any given area where there were two detectives, there had to be a
vehicle shared between them. The vehicle distribution system was done in such a
way that resources were allocated equally to all police stations.
The Chairperson asked for comment on the equal distribution of resources and
whether there had been a complete transformation process since 1994.
The commissioner said that the transformation process had not been completed,
but was ongoing, and that SAPS planned to build police stations closer to the
people, especially in township and rural communities.
Mr Trent asked for clarity on the steps that should be taken when an individual
asked for assistance at his local station but was told that there were no
vehicles.
The Commissioner replied that the station commander should be reported
immediately
Mr Trent went on to question the misplaced firearms, and asked for comment on
the steps that had been taken to ensure that SAPS personnel managed their
firearms properly, were trained to use them properly, and returned them when
discharged from service.
The Commissioner explained that station commanders were tasked with performing
constant and prescribed inspections on the firearms. Criminal cases were opened
on those commanders who had been found lacking in performing their
responsibilities. In terms of ensuring effective firearm management, SAPS had
bought 70 000 safes for the safe storage of firearms, and an additional 43 000
would be purchased in this financial year. SAPS had also implemented a street
survival programme, to train officers in street survival techniques.
The Chairperson asked whether the implementation of the programme was
effective. He commented that the number of misplaced firearms had increased
from the figures in previous reports, and asked the Commissioner to elaborate
how SAPS would relate these statistics to the programme. The Chairperson also
asked about recruitment in anticipation of the World Cup Soccer in 2010 to
ensure enough officers in 2010.
The Commissioner stated that the number of policemen was not constant, and SAPS
had experienced an increase in the number of police officers over the past two
years. The increase in misplaced firearms was related to the increase of
personnel. However some of the firearms that had been reported as misplaced
were not lost firearms, but were rather old firearms that had not yet been
declared unserviceable. The Commissioner stated that it was important to note
that the level of crime during the 1995 Rugby World Cup was much higher than
the level of crime today.
Commissioner Mala Singh, Deputy National Commissioner, SAPS stated that SAPS
had geared up its recruitment and training mechanisms in order to ensure that
there was a large pool of suitable applicants available. The street survival
programme would be incorporated into the basic training,
Mr Trent stated that he accepted that SAPS had control mechanisms with respect
to the management of firearms; but the Committee was concerned with how well
these were being implemented.
The Commissioner stated that SAPS was ready to improve its monitoring
capability with respect to firearms. A marking process of all the firearms was
currently being rolled out in all the provinces.
The Chairperson asked for elaboration on the extent to which policies and
practices were being monitored and conducted.
Commissioner Singh stated there were policies in place to ensure monitoring and
evaluation. She stated that there were two main internal control mechanisms.
The first was the internal audit component, which undertook inspections and
reports that were then forwarded to the national commissioner. The second was
through the national evaluation services; who were responsible for performing
inspections and alerting station commanders of possible risks for remedial
action. Follow up inspections had also been done to ensure that all outstanding
issues were addressed.
Mr Trent asked for confirmation whether all the firearms that were issued to
other Departments had been accounted for.
The Commissioner stated that there were still various departments in possession
of firearms. He said that SAPS was continually engaging with those departments
and had asked them to reduce the number of firearms if possible. Although some
departments had responded the feedback had not met SAPS’ expectations.
Mr Terence Nombembe, Auditor General (AG) stated that owing to the constant
revision of the accounting system by National Treasury, assets were
increasingly being accounted for on a more onerous system and it became
increasingly more important to observe the controls in order to match up to the
financial statements.
Mr Trent asked about the control and management of dockets. He asked if there
was a system that ensured that dockets were allocated in such a way that would
ensure that detectives were not over-worked or under-utilised. He asked for
elaboration on the systems in place to ensure that dockets did not go missing
or were sold.
The Commissioner said that in 2005 and 2006 SAPS had trained 2168 detectives to
address these questions. A case administration system was implemented as part
of the training so that when the trainees were appointed as detectives they
knew what was required of them. SAPS also performed quarterly audits on all the
dockets that have been closed. The crime administration system required that a
docket be issued within 21 days. He also stated that there was a mechanism
whereby SAPS created duplicate dockets in order to prevent fraud in the
service.
The Chairperson requested details on the training of the detectives. He
enquired how many detectives were on the programme, how long the programme
took, and how it would be sustained.
The Commissioner replied that there were 22 000 detectives. Trainee detectives
for SAPS were usually initially assigned to detective work for a certain
period. Successful candidates were sent for further training at Hermanskraal.
The full training lasted three years.
Mr Trent asked the Commissioner to elaborate why the reports on the state of
forensic laboratories (labs) provided by the SAPS and the AG respectively
differed.
The Commissioner responded that in order to minimise risk an automated e-mail
system was implemented in a case administration system, which would inform the
forensic lab when a case was closed. SAPS also had held a meeting with the
Directors of Public Prosecutions to request assistance in ensuring that cases
were fast tracked. The forensic labs completed about 90% of the cases received
in 2005 and 2006. However, they were threatened by shortage of skills and
desperately needed a staff retention system to ensure that the private sector
did not poach the skilled staff.
Ms L Mashiane (ANC) asked whether SAPS had a method of evaluating the
effectiveness of its policies, which had been labelled as “outdated”.
The Commissioner stated that this question dealt with supply chain management
policy framework. SAPS had implemented the National Treasury (NT) prescripts.
Ms Mashiane asked whether the crime statistics were effective and reliable
Commissioner Petrus du Toit, Divisional Commissioner, SAPS stated that
currently Cabinet required statistics to be released to Cabinet before release
to the public in the annual report. Mr du Toit argued that before release the
statistics should be as refined as possible.
Commissioner Singh stated that there was a process of meetings and procedures,
where information was sent from all the provinces to the national office for as
assessment of the accuracy of the reporting. On a quarterly basis the national
commissioner held meetings to discuss the crime statistics. A performance chart
was presented to the commissioner on a quarterly basis in order to ensure that
the statistics remained accurate.
Ms Mashiane understood the measures that had been put in place in terms of
SAPS’s performance, but noted that many cases were unreported, and must affect
the reliability of the statistics.
The Commissioner replied that those cases appearing on the statistics were
reported cases. SAPS did not know the scale of unreported cases.
Mr P Gerber (ANC) asked for more information regarding the cost of policing of
the abalone industry, and the issue of cable theft.
The Commissioner replied that in order to deal with cable theft SAPS had
re-introduced the railway police. Its community public relations campaign was
also attempting to build better community relations so that matters such as
cable could be easily dealt with. He would respond in writing on the costs of
policing the abalone industry.
Mr Gerber asked for a progress report on the rebuilding of the Wellington
police station.
The Commissioner stated that the Wellington case would be investigated.
Mr Trent argued that it was important that non-financial information should
also be audited, since matters such as service delivery were as important as the
financial information.
The Commissioner stated that SAPS had a good functional relationship and would
continue to cooperate with the Auditor General’s office.
Ms M Sotyu (ANC) stated that there were some issues addressed in the
meeting that the Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security had felt
demonstrated significant progress. They were satisfied with the question of
vehicles, but had found problems in the control of firearms with the Metro
police in KwaZuluNatal, and had been assured by the Independent Complaints
Directorate (ICD) that the matter was being investigated. In terms of police
corruption, that Portfolio Committee had come across lost dockets, but not
dockets being sold. There was clearly a transformation system in SAPS that was
working. Although the building of the police stations remained a challenge,
there was a great improvement.
Independent Complaints Directorate (ICD): Interrogation of Audit Report
2005/6
Mr Trent asked
the ICD to elaborate on the Auditor General’s comments regarding the travelling
and substance allowance. He asked if the Public Service Commission report had
been received.
Mr Les Xingwa, formerly Acting Director, ICD replied that there was not enough
capacity at the ICD to satisfy the requirements of the Public Finance
Management Act. He also stated that the Public Service Commission report had
not yet been received.
The Chairperson noted that it was unfortunate that in the last eight years ICD
had had two Acting Directors and that situation needed to be resolved immediately
Mr Trent asked for clarity on the AG’s report on the suspense accounts that
were not cleared, and asked what had been done to rectify the matter.
Mr Xingwa replied that the ICD was working on the suspense account and would
hopefully rectify it at some stage. Due to the high staff turnover there had
been a delay in the completion of the suspense accounts.
Ms Elise Verster, Chief Financial Officer, ICD added that the ICD lacked
capacity in its debtor section, and had only sufficient people to run
day-to-day activities. ICD had written off a number of debts.
Mr Trent then asked for clarity on the funds from the Department of Public
Works (DPW) that had not yet been recovered. He also asked about whether there
had been any developments in regard to debtors, as this was not indicated in
the audit report.
Ms Verster stated that the process to recover funds from DPW had commenced.
Although there had been movement with regard to the debtors it was as yet
unsatisfactory.
The Chairperson questioned the lack of capacity at the ICD, in particular why
ICD lacked funds to pay competitive salaries.
A representative from National Treasury stated that ICD had been receiving
funds in order to increase capacity, but that ICD had apparently been unable to
appoint the correct people.
The Chair asked ICD whether it was really functional, or was heading for
collapse.
Mr Xingwa replied that the ICD was not on the brink of collapse, but it had
been forced to cut down on the number of cases. He argued that there simply was
not enough money to sustain the organisation.
Ms Sotyu said that she acknowledged the challenges faced by
the ICD, and noted that the Minister of Safety and Security was in the process
of restructuring the organisation. It was clear that ICD needed investigators.
Some of the problems had turned into political issues. It was important for the
organisation to appoint a Chief Executive Officer as soon as possible.
Mr Trent argued that the fact that the ICD was unable to deliver on its mandate
was a serious matter.
Ms Mashiane stated that the she would not be able to get any logical answers
from the ICD, as all the questions she had prepared dealt with manpower issues.
The Chairperson asked the ICD to comment upon what it believed made it a functional
entity.
Mr Xingwa replied that the ICD was effective in terms of meeting its mandate.
Its staff complement was at 42% strength, but the division could be up to 60%.
He also stated that the ICD had a functioning head office that was making a
concerted effort to improve its performance.
The Chair then asked the current Acting Executive Director to provide reasons
why he took over a sinking ship
Mr P Mongwe replied that the ICD was not sinking. Despite the serious capacity
challenges, the ICD could still function and make a turnaround.
Mr T Mofokeng (ANC) asked the ICD to elaborate on how much the investigators
were being paid.
Mr Xingwa replied that there was no problem in senior management salaries as
they were on par with all other governmental senior management salaries.
However, at the lower levels skilled managers at the ICD were paid lower
salaries than other departments that required the same skills.
Mr Thomas Tshabalala, Programme Manager, Investigations, ICD argued that the
challenge faced by the ICD was the retention of highly skilled workers. ICD
required highly skilled investigators with years of experience, and training a
new detective took at least two years. However the salaries for investigators
at the ICD were not competitive, resulting in poaching of staff by other
departments.
Mr Trent stated that the audit report did not include non-financial
information, and that the Committee was trying to investigate administrative
problems, not operational problems.
Mr Nombembe stated that in terms of the human resources report, the human
resources planning and strategy was still in a draft format. In terms of
financial management responsibilities, Departments must ensure that whatever
monies were received, were accounted for as a matter of priority.
Ms Mashiane asked whether the leadership of the ICD understood their
responsibilities in terms of the Public Finance Management Act (PFMA). She
stated that the Committee would like to hear answers, not excuses.
Ms Sotyu commented that all the issues that were raised in the meeting were
fair. The Portfolio Committee on Safety and Security was working with National
Treasury to try to assist the ICD, as it was a vital entity.
The meeting was adjourned
Audio
No related
Documents
No related documents
Present
- We don't have attendance info for this committee meeting
Download as PDF
You can download this page as a PDF using your browser's print functionality. Click on the "Print" button below and select the "PDF" option under destinations/printers.
See detailed instructions for your browser here.