Report back by Workgroups

Meeting report

PUBLIC ACCOUNTS STANDING COMMITTEE
4 June 2002
REPORT-BACK FROM WORK GROUPS

[This is a transcript of the meeting, produced by the Public Accounts Committee Secretariat.]

PRESENT:

African National Congress

Mr L Chiba
Mr P Gerber
Mr BW Kannemeyer
Ms PK Mothoagae
Mr BZ Nair
Mr VG Smith

Democratic Party

Mr NS Bruce
Mr M Lowe

New National Party

Mr F Beukman (chairperson)

In attendance from the Office of the Auditor-General: Mr S Fakie (Auditor-General), Mr P Mosaka, Mr C Botes, Ms L Less, Mr A van Dyk

In attendance from National Treasury: Mr N Marais

APOLOGIES: Ms C Dudley, Ms N Hlangwana, Dr G Koornhof

Welcome and opening by the chairperson.

The minutes of 21 May 2002 were adopted with amendments.

Decisions

Mr B Kannemeyer replaces Mr Masithela as SCOPA's delegate on the APAC Council of delegates.
The draft standard resolution was adopted with the inclusion of an exception clause.

2. Matters arising from previous minutes

The legal opinion on the handling of Treasury Replies will be discussed at the workshop. Treasury received a copy, and it will assist the Committee if Treasury can comment.

Mr Kannemeyer stated that there has been only one attendance by the member from the ACDP and this creates problems in light of the heavy workload because the group is dealing with 16 votes. The group has also asked the Committee Secretary to record attendance of group meetings.

Mr Smith proposed that the chairperson should write a letter to the chairperson of Committees about the non-attendance of Committee meetings by the IFP, UDM and ACDP.

The Committee agreed that the draft standard resolution should be used as a basis and that an exception clause be built in. The exception clause will read as follows: "Noting the above, the Committee however alert the Department to the following.......".

The chairperson reported that the Department of Justice proposed 6 & 7 as possible dates for a meeting with the Committee. However, the Committee will look for a date which will also accommodate the chairperson of the Justice Committee. He further reported that a pro forma budget of the Committee has been handed in. However, the final budget would be discussed at the workshop.

The Committee agreed that Mr Kannemeyer will substitute Mr Masithela as a member of SCOPA on the APAC Council of Delegates.

Regarding the presentation by Canon on the document management system the chairperson stated that the Committee would first look at the manual system before it moves on to the electronic system. DFID will be asked to contact other service providers in this regard. The document relating to the document numbering system will be discussed at the workshop.

The chairperson reported that during the meeting with the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence it was agreed that each of the two Committees should nominate two delegates who will work on proposals towards a dedicated mechanism to deal with Secret Services Reports.

The Auditor-General informed the Committee that he received an invitation from the JSCI to brief them on the Intelligence Report. The briefing will take place tomorrow.

3. Group report back

3.1 Group one: Mr V Smith

The group discussed the draft resolution on Defence and effected amendments. A copy will be distributed to all members later today.

3.2 Group two: Mr B Kannemeyer

Report

The group is finalising its evaluation of the replies to additional questions on the Housing Report. Input to the draft resolution will be done next week.

The group is also processing unqualified reports and looking at the draft standard resolution. Preliminary questions on Communications will be sent next week. The group received the summary of the legal opinion in respect of the Sarafina matter from the researcher and would like the legal opinion to be referred to the Parliamentary Law Advisors for their opinion. The group would also like to spell out a number of things that have not been done right during the meeting with the Director-General.

There was an agreement with Parliament that members will go on site visits, but in correspondence the members were informed that it is fine if they want to go on site visits informally but if they are doing it formally as members of SCOPA it will be problematic. When the committee secretary requested information promised during the hearing he was informed that Parliament is not going to give it to SCOPA because it is interacting with Treasury. The group would like the chairperson to interact with the relevant office in order to resolve the matter.

During the last hearing with the Department of Home Affairs lack of controls at the Market street office was identified. One group member brought it to the attention of the group that during M-Net's Carte Blanche program the matter was being discussed and it looked as though those problems have not been attended to. The group would like the chairperson to interact with the Portfolio Committee on Home Affairs regarding the issue.

It was also shown on Television news that the Correctional Services Department was paying rent for a building that was not being used. The group would like the chairperson to interact with the Portfolio Committee on Correctional Services regarding the issue.

Discusion

The chairperson agreed that the legal opinion on Sarafina should be sent to the Parliamentary Law advisers for their opinion. He further said that he had a meeting with Mr Klaasen who pointed out that Treasury was the appropriate mechanism for dealing with questions relating to Parliament.

The Auditor-General added that the matter of the accountability of Parliament is filtering through to the Provinces as well and the Committee should interact with the Speaker.

Mr Smith wanted clarity on how the issue that was raised on Television affects SCOPA.

Ms Mothoagae responded that during the Television program the spokesperson of the Department of Home Affairs acknowledged that there were no internal controls and it indicated that the issues arising from the hearing were not addressed.

Mr Kannemeyer added that it appeared as if it is easy to buy Identity Documents and the impression was created that nothing will happen to the officials involved.

Mr Smith stated that SCOPA should tread carefully when dealing with media reports because anyone can make up a story. He suggested that the issue be set aside for a broader discussion.

The Committee agreed that the matter be discussed at the workshop.

3.3 Group three: Mr B Nair

The cluster requests leave to go and finalise its preparations for the hearing.

4. General

The chairperson reported that he is going to have a short meeting with the facilitator of the workshop on Sunday. A short meeting with the members who will be chairing the various sessions will also take place.

The Auditor-General said that the Committee should look at its operations from a strategic point of view during the workshop. The chairperson requested the AG to prepare in writing some of the strategic issues for the Committee.

Mr Smith proposed that resolutions from the APAC conference be tabled in the ATC. The Committee agreed that a report on the APAC conference should be drafted by the secretariat for ratification by the Committee.

Mr Smith read out a letter written by Mr M Lowe about APAC and added that he would like to register the ANC's displeasure at the content of the letter. Mr Lowe walked out of the meeting.

The meeting adjourned at 11:50.